titles in Austria
 

I couldn't believe the Lufthansa website when they asked me to choose which title precedes my name and gave a list with so many combinations that I was amazed. Check it out for yourself by going to "contact us" and then "email" and then select a topic and the list will appear. . Another site about Austria said it is imperitive to use the right title or offend others in many ways. So I need advice from a real expert on the German language and protocol. I am a married woman and my husband is a college professor without a doctorate. I myself am a psychologist with a doctorate. What is his title? What is my title?

Hi Humanone,

you would be "Frau Doktor..." and your DH "Herr Professor..."

regards, ann

I believe you are Frau Doktor xxxx, and your husband is Professor xxxx.

Ooops! Annhig is correct---I forfgot the "Herr" with your husband's name.

If I recall correctly, your title will be Dr., and your husband will be Prof. This is a throwback to the days of the Monarchy, when everyone had to have a title. Moreover, if you had two doctorates, you would have the title, Dr. Dr.. Pick up a copy of the the book Nervous Splendor by Frederick Morton. It is a wonderful read about life in Vienna during the years 1888-1889.

I forgot about the Frau und Herr also!

Back when titles were important, Austrians had a habit of promoting everyone, so that Herr became Doktor, Doktor became Professor, Professor became Geheimrat.

I would forget about the academic honorifics unless I was among academics.

Then it is all right to boast about being a Herr (or Frau) Geheimrat Professor Doktor.

((I)) formerly G,P,D.

>I am a married woman and my husband is a college professor without a doctorate. I myself am a psychologist with a doctorate. What is his title? What is my title?

The titles are not affected by marriage. If you have a doctorate you are Frau Dr. <Humanone>. Your husband is (at least in Austria) Herr Prof. Dr. <Humanone>.

Austrians are indeed crazy with titles - but this is more important if you go there for professional purposes. Nobody (in normal daily life) will be offended if you don't know whether he is a Herr Ingenieur XY, a Herr Dr. XY or Herr Geheimrat XY, as long as you stay with Herr XY.
In Germany only Dr. is considered a title permanently attached to the name - so in Germany you are Frau Dr. <Humanone> and Herr Dr. <Humanone>.

Confused?

I like the Italian way. Everyone with an advanced degree gets to be Dottore or Dottoressa.

"Everyone with an advanced degree gets to be Dottore or Dottoressa."

Yes, I like that too. I am a consultant to an Italian company and I have a nice collection of Dr. Tilke name badges from various healthcare conferences...so much cheaper than going to medical school ;-)

humanone:

Your title would be "Dr.".

Your husband's title would be "Prof." but NOT "Dr.".

Academic titles in Germany are regulated by law. You are subject to severe punishment if you are pretending having an academic title which you have not earned.

Austria is really crazy with titles. The historical reason is that they got rid of nobility pretty late. And the bourgois were very proud to have their titles too. in Austria, academic titles are a symbol of democratic culture.

When we lived in Vienna, we learned about this title thing as well as the formal and familiar rules of the German language.

My husband's boss, who was an American overseeing a Viennese manufacturing firm, was called the Geschäftsführer. He got to where he really liked this title thing. We use to tease him about it all the time, especially when he showed up at the Company picnic in his lederhosen!

>Geschäftsführer
Please enlighten me, why "Geschäftsführer" ("Chief Executive Officer" in English) is considered a title, other than being the CEO ;-)

Oh, however grandiose the Austrians may be, the Italians were, maybe still are... grandioser!

Does anyone remember the Italian descriptors and honorifics of yore, such as:

Egregrissimo...(Most singular)
Cavaliere...(Gentleman)

etc...

Mostly encountered on postal addresses, not in speech. Thank God.

My favourite, and longest, german job title:

der Donaudampfschiffahrtsgesellschafts-kapitaen.


i had to put the hyphen in for it to make sense. it means the captain of the Ship belonging to the Danube Steam ship company.

"Herr Kapitaen" would probably do for less formal occasions.

regards, ann

The Donaudampfschifffahrtsgesellschaftskapitaen holds the official
Donaudampfschifffahrtsgesellschaftskapitaenspatent
of the
Donaudampfschifffahrtsgesellschaft
which is certified through the
Donaudampfschifffahrtsgesellschaftskapitaenspatent surkunde.

12 choices on the Lufthansa site but no "Miss" (nor "none of the above")?!

I've been told by Germans that Miss (Fraulein)is not used anymore, women are always referred to as Mrs (Frau) whether they are married or not.

Fräulein (not Fraulein) is definitely considered old-fashioned and an absolute no-no in Germany because there is no equivalent for unmarried men. Why stress whether a woman is married or not? Every woman is titled "Frau".

Back to the original question - "Frau Dr. Humanone" and "Herr Professor Humanone" would be correct in letters and official situations. In normal life, insisting on these titles would be a bit snob. At university, no student would address a professor as "Herr Professor xy", since 1968 it's just "Herr xy". Again, this is Germany.

Keep in mind that Austria and Germany are two different pairs of shoes when it comes to titles. So is the question about Austria or Germany (asking because you posted twice and the question doesn't make that clear)?

go, logos!

that's definitely put me in my place.

:S-

regards, ann

Thanks all, (oder meine Frauen und Herren), but...my step-mother from Vienna told me when I was a child, before women's lib, that I should marry a doctor, so that I could be Frau Doctor. Now that I myself am one, isn't the title for my own doctorate the same as if I had merely married one?

Again, Germany: No wife of a doctor is addressed as "Frau Doktor" any more. Those times are over.

Sorry for my mistake above - I have misread that your husband is a professor but has no doctorate.

>my step-mother from Vienna told me when I was a child, before women's lib, that I should marry a doctor, so that I could be Frau Doctor. Now that I myself am one, isn't the title for my own doctorate the same as if I had merely married one?

In Germany, the title of the husband has not been transferred to the wife for long time now (it was this way though).
In Austria it is a rather recent development - so especially older people can lapse.

>put me in my place
I hope my spelling was correct. ;-)
I should compete in the next "spelling bee" contest :D.

To confuse you even more;-): It's always "Meine Damen und Herren".

hi, quokka

"ladies and gentlemen"

but "m'sieurs, dames",

"senori, senore" [i think]

confused - you will be.

regards, an n

Hi H,

> isn't the title for my own doctorate the same as if I had merely married one?

If you had married Dr X, with your own doctorate, you would be Frau Doktor Doktor X.

By yourself, you are Doktor H.

In the UK, if you were a titled Lady with an academic honorific who had gone into the army, you could be General Doctor Lady H.

If you were to marry Lord Robert Y, you would would be general doctor lady Robert. (Muffy to your friends)

((I))

But what about the title "Zahnarztfrau" :D, invented by Colgate-Palmolive. Does it apply to husbands of female dentists?

Why bother?

Mr Waring Esquire. BA (Hons).

&quot;Mr Waring Esquire. BA (Hons).&quot; You really ought to know better. <b> Either </b> Mr <b> OR </b> Esquire. But never both. And there are practically no circumstances in which suffixing BA (Hons) is anything other than naff. Sort of thing headmasters of seedy prep schools do when they're touting for business.

&quot;In the UK, if you were a titled Lady with an academic honorific who had gone into the army, you could be General Doctor Lady H&quot;. OK, ira's American, so he can't be expected to know any better.

Doctorates cumulate in British English only under very rare circumstances, and &quot;lady&quot; no longer cumulates by marriage. She might be General Lady Cholmendely if she'd been given a peerage herself. Or she might be General The Countess of Cholmendelyshire if hers was one of those titles that can be inherited through the female line. If Buffy Warner marries Lord Cholmendely, these days she'd be General Warner in the army and Lady Cholmendely when out distributing soup to her husband's destitute tenantry.

The only circumstance I can thing of where doctorates cumulate is for clerics. &quot;The Right Rev Dr Warner Cholmendely&quot; is quite standard.

This isn't fanciful. I actually know someone who's The Very Rev Professor Sir..... But, in spite of more doctorates (mostly honorary) than most people have got books, he's not used the Doctor title since he got his first professorship.

I knew that, making a point

Waring (BSc Calcutta, failed)

You have to be really careful with the Austrians and their titles...my husband is Austrian, and from an academic family...but it basically goes for all austrians regardless.
I have some hilarious stories. I have gotten my husband out of the title thang...but then sometimes he forgets that he really must use his titles..doktor doktor! in Austria. For example, he has tried to book restaurants in Vienna without his title- and apparantly there are no tables free - but when introducing the doktor doktor - a table magically appears. Some time when I have time - I'll write about the title problems we had in relation to our wedding - unbelieveable. Remember, the Austrians take it so seriously that they often apply for a new passport when they get their new title.

And yet, they banned all the &quot;von's&quot;.
An &quot;Otto von Habsburg&quot; in Germany becomes &quot;Otto Habsburg&quot; in Austria.

&gt;And yet, they banned all the &quot;von's&quot;.

I would say it makes sense.
If you have a doctorate it is (well, mostly) your own merit.
If you have a &quot;von&quot; in the name, usually it is not.

flanneruk:

RE &quot; If Buffy Warner marries Lord Cholmendely, these days she'd be General Warner in the army...&quot;

Huh? I can't prove you're wrong but this sure sounds counter-intuitive.

How can a woman be denied her married name and forced to use her maiden name...in title- and status-conscious Britain, of all places?

BTW: maybe all posters could agree to use the familiar spelling Cholmondeley, as in Marquis of....

US readers take note:

It's pronounced &quot;Chumley&quot;, I believe.

I love this topic as we are headed to Austria this summer! We are visiting some of my DH's relatives and now I know to be more formal in the initial introductions. (just to seem proper of course!) :)
Of course, maybe I will need to use the Doctor Doctor for reservations in dining... :)just kidding.

Try &quot;Prof. Dr. Dr. hc. mult.&quot; ;-)
One of my teachers had this title, didn't help him, he's dead now anyway...

My father in laws title is as follows - em.o.Univ.Prof.Dr.Dr.h.c.

sending the quick postcard just doesn't work

Thank you for the correction, F.

&gt;If Buffy Warner marries Lord Cholmendely, these days she'd be General Warner in the army and Lady Cholmendely when out distributing soup ..&lt;

If Lord C were named Bubba, would she not be Lady Bubba, to distinguish her from the other wives of the various Lords C?

Hi L,

&gt;when introducing the doktor doktor - a table magically appears.

My Lady Wife always makes reservations for Prof Dr and herself.

((I))

'Fr&auml;ulein (not Fraulein) is definitely considered old-fashioned and an absolute no-no in Germany because there is no equivalent for unmarried men. Why stress whether a woman is married or not? Every woman is titled &quot;Frau&quot;.'

I *wondered* how the German language had handled Women's Lib! In US English, of course, Women's Lib in the 1970's brought the generic &quot;Ms&quot; into the language to replace &quot;Miss&quot; and &quot;Mrs.&quot; I'd never had a chance to find out how the German language handled the same cultural change.

Alle Damen sind anscheinend &quot;Frauen&quot; heuzutage, Ja?