Without wanting to highjack this thread:

Property tax is called Grundsteuer in Germany.

It is a bit hard to describe how they calculate it - there must be a million reasons, why more than 50 % of worldwide literature and commentary on taxation are in German :-((. I'll try to give a rough outline:

1. There is no uniform tax rate on "Grundsteuer" in Germany - it is a city tax.

2. The revenue office will assign a certain value to the property (most likely nothing to do with the price the owner paid). It is called "Einheitswert" (uniform value).

3. The revenue office will then assign another value to the property. This value is called "Grundsteuermessbetrag" (property tax measuring amount). Basically they multiply the "Einheitswert" with a factor. This factor varies whether the property is farm land, single home, townhouse or other property. The factor for an apartment would currently be 3.5 per thousand. For a single home this would be 2.5 per thousand for the first DEM (yes, they still calculate on a DEM basis...) and 3.5 for the rest of the value.

4. The assigned value will then be communicated to the city. The respective city is entitled to install another factor called "Hebesatz" (leverage rate). In Berlin the leverage rate is currently 150 % for farm land and 660 % for other real estate property.

In Hamburg the leverage rate is currently 225 % for farmland and 540 % for other real estate property.

5. The city can only once a year determine what an amount of "Hebesatz" they want to apply. However, cities may constitute a "Hebesatz" for longer periods than a year.

6. I am not aware of any additional taxation based on whether the owner lives on his property or not. However, I hope this thread is not being followed by any governing bodies here - it might tickle them to introduce such taxes ;-).

7. Still there are cities that will subject yoou to a tax if the real estate concerned is not your primary residence (a number of vacation destinations do so in order to profit from people acquiring condos etc.) I know that Hamburg also has a tax like that Berlin follows the same procedure. Please note that not only owners of real estate will be subjected to this tax, but also their lessees.

8. To further confuse you, there is another tax called "Grunderwerbsteuer". This is basically the VAT due once upon the purchase of real-estate property. Buyers will not be assigned title to the property they purchased before they cannot produce evidence that "Grunderwerbssteuer" was paid.

I am not sure whether this clarifies things. That's about as good as I can do.

HSV,
Thanks your excellent detailed answer, I knew I asked the right person! You're very knowledgable about property tax in both cities & did a great job explaining such a complicated multilayered tax system. I'm going to keep it for reference. I suppose it's better to get a place and call it a business rental with a loss rather than a vacation place, but then one may get into another business tax dimension. I have a feeling no one can beat the tax system in Germany.

Wow, people are definitely taxed to death on everything in Germany. The government doesn't fail to cover all bases and tax their citizens from all possible angles. They absolutely didn't miss a thing when they figured how to tax and yet the government is still figuring out how to get more tax.

I had a glimpse of your income tax system when Guido Westerwelle was putting tax simplification on his campaign. It's definitely tax science even for the simplest income earner. In a way, it shows what an intelligent society you have to be able to function with all the complicated system & rules.

hsv,
I can stay at the Quality hotel located at Heidenkampsweg 34 using my points. How is that location?
Thanks

mike,

I hate to break this to you, but I wouldn't encourage you to stay there.
I believe this is the Ambassador, which as such is o.k. (it's an unimpressive late sixties building, but they did some renovations and the rooms, I believe, feature glass bathrooms in the middle of the room or something quirky like that). However the location - while central - is pretty awful IMHO. Heidenkampsweg is one of the main arteries of the city bringing in traffic from South of the river and vice versa. There are at least three lanes in each direction, so you definitely would not want to take a walk anywhere. Apart from that, there are mainly offices and industrial complexes in your vicinity and there isn't much to do and see.
On the plus side, Berliner Tor station, one of the major crossing points, offers S-Bahn (express trains) and U-Bahn (metro) access and is only a five minute walk away.
A few days ago, I just discussed the place with a friend, and we both agreed that one would get a rather wrong impression of Hamburg, if one were to stay there.

Probably my last post came across as very negative.
If you factor in the public transport access at Berliner Tor (which is just one stop from Central Station), you might be fine. Just be prepared that there won't be any scenic beauty (of which the city offers a lot in most other parts)around you - which would be a pity IMO. The hotel itself should be quite pleasant.
I just double-checked the Choice Hotels' website and found that there aren't any alternatives in Hamburg. So I guess, if you're dependant on using points and if you're willing to compromise you might cope with the location.

hsv,
I also have I think a much better choice the Hamburg Marriott at ABC Strasse 52 or the Rennaissance Hamburg at Grosse Bleichen Hamburg, 20354. Of these two what do you think is a better chice?
Thanks again for all your help.
Mike

mike,

in the first place: This is true - either would be a much better choice!

But now for the hard part (or perhaps not) - I think it is pretty much a toss up.
The Marriott is a newer property, approx. 10 to 15 years old. To my knowledge it has undergone some renovations recently. They also redecorated their restaurant completely.

The Renaissance is only about 250 yards away. It is housed in quite an attractive older red brick building that formerly was the headquarters of a local newspaper. Regarding the overall feel, it might be the more traditional of the two.

Again, I cannot comment on the quality of the rooms, but would suppose that neither would be bad.

The Marriott has a pool and spa in the basement, which the Renaissance hasn't. However, guests at the Renaissance are allowed to use the facilities at the Marriott free of charge. The Renaissance has a small fitness room and sauna. I don't know, though, whether one really likes to step outside and walk for 3 minutes just to use the pool and spa.

I guess what it comes down to is that I would go with the Marriott if I were extremely interested in the pool facilities. If not, I'd opt for wherever I would get the best rate. If staying on points (and presuming that about the same amount of points would be deducted), the Marriott might offer a bit more for the price.

As DAX formerly mentioned that he recommended staying at either the Marriott or the Renaissance, he might be able to come up with some first hand information.

Just one more thought occurred to me: The Renaissance might have the cosier feel about it - more personal if you will. Don't know how important this would be for you.

If I may jump in, in 2001 the Marriott room we had looked like a typical old Marriott room with flowery bedspread, small window,we could hear street noise and feel mildly claustrophobic but maybe because it is surrounded by modern shopping buildings. All in all, it's a perfectly good room, no real complaint.

The Renaissance room had more character(less cookie cutter) and somewhat larger & nicer but not by much. The hotel, however,faces a quieter square/triangle. The Lobby is rather small,typical for business hotels. There are gentrified classic buildings with upscale boutiques a block away, less buzzing/echoing than Marriot. There is a Moevenpick grill in the basement of the shopping mall behind the hotel where the service is friendly and one can eat on the bar and maybe even chat with people during lunch. It had a kneipe/bar atmosphere when I was there.

I'd like to apologize for hijacking your thread a few days ago. I made a bad assumption that you were done with your inquiries.

No worries Dax, I thank you and Hsv for your input.
The cosier feel of the Rennaissance sounds good.

hsv, I have a couple of Berlin locations for you. Both Comfort inns located at Kurfuerstendamm 17 is one the other Bayreuther Strasse 10.
Thanks,

We actually dropped off someone who was staying at the Comfort Inn on Bayreuthstrasse last September. I remember there was nothing but an old stairwell, a soda machine and a janitorial closet when we entered the hotel front door on the ground floor. One has to climb up to the small reception room on the second floor. It reminded me of an old mom & pop pension.

Our friend said her room had a "motel six" bathroom but smaller and her double room was nothing like in the internet picture. She was offered to move to another room but it was even worse. The worse part was no elevator for all 5 floors. She wanted to cancell but there was a one night penalty.

On the positive side it has a good location, just a block southeast of Kadewe, the largest dept store in Berlin.

mike,

I only know the one on Kurfuerstendamm No.17 (the Comfort Inn Fruehling am Zoo) - and I am only familiar with its exteriors, never been inside.

The location is smack dab in the thick of things in the West Berlin Center. It is only steps to the Zoo station, still Western Berlin's main stop for domestic as well as local trains. The station attracts pretty dubious characters, but the hotel would be far enough from the scene to ensure you'd not be bothered. In fact, Kurfuerstendamm is still a pretty popular shopping street with some pretty upscale shops in the area.
This is Western Berlin, Charlottenburg, to be specific. I tried to outline the characteristics in one of my previous posts. Many tourists visiting the city prefer to stay in Mitte, I think, but one can certainly be fine in the Western center, too. And you could walk to sidestreets like Bleibtreustr and Savignyplatz in order to dig into a very pleasant restaurant scene that is not as touristy as in Mitte nowadays.

I would think that the best "Choice Hotel" in Berlin is Hotel Berlin, the Clarion City Center. It went bancrupt a short while ago and was evidently revived by Choice or at least with their help. Some investments were made and it might very well be a fairly nice hotel now. But the drawback would be its location, which is somewhat isolated (closer to Potsdamer Platz, though) and where you'd be reliant on buses, whereas at the Kurfuerstendamm location of the Fruehling am Zoo, you have a choice between buses, S-Bahns, U-Bahns and regional trains.

Great replies. Dax when you said motel six like that might have made up my mind to not stay there. I like that the locations are central.

Mike,
I don't know how particular you are about hotel rooms, but Amsterdam hotels can get really dumpy. In general hotels in Amsterdam are worse than in Hamburg/Berlin in price/quality ratio. I don't want to confuse you, but if I were you, I would use the Renaissance points for Amsterdam and pay for Hamburg & Berlin. Amsterdam Renaissance is close to the Centraal train station for going to the Hague,Haarlem or Gouda and it's really a great hotel (for Amsterdam) and usually costs over 200 euro a night. I'm sure you can get decent hotels for 100-125 euro in Hamburg/Berlin. I always check Expedia for prices but then book the hotel directly. I stayed at the Swissotel in Berlin for 135 euro last September and was satisfied with the hotel.

Also take a look at

http://www.hrs.de

to compare prices.

I am down to two more choices. The one in Hamburg is located at Luebecker Strasse 3 it is the NOVOTEL DORINT HAMBURG ALSTER. The one in Berlin is located at Frankfurter Allee 73 a Eingang: Voigtstraße 2 The hotel MERCURE HOTEL BERLIN CITY OST
Dax, The Rennaissance in Amsterdam was unavailable. Tell me what you think?
Thanks
hsv, Thanks for the website I will be looking into that.

mike:

I am not that familiar with the Mercure Berlin City Ost and its location. However it is located close to Karl-Marx-Allee at the border of the Friedrichshain district, it appears.
Friedrichshain is -well- Friedrichshain. Pretty special at that and it's either love it or hate it, I presume. It is a vibrant area, but sort of alternative. Not exactly socially favoured, but pretty popular with young scenesters and not so well heeled students. Alexanderplatz is about 10 minutes by train away.
I think it is a bit far out of the way.
If you want to stay with Accor, I would suggest you take a look at the Mercure at Charité.
This is in the center of Mitte, and just a short stroll to Friedrichstr., Unter den Linden, Museum Island and Hackesche Hoefe. I randomly checked prices for a few nights for next October and it appears that the price difference is not that much. Cheapest (restricted) rates were around € 66.00 for the Charité and € 69.00 for the City Ost. Highest rates were € 87.00 for the Charité vs. € 79.00 for the City Ost.
BTW: I noticed that the Schweizerhof Sofitel in West Berlin has (restricted) rates starting from € 99.00. It's quite a good offer at that - although the street it is located on is a bit of a yawn, however it is only steps from Zoo station and the Kaiser-Wilhelm-Gedaechtniskirche on Ku'damm and the surrounding buzz.
The Charité location would be a bit hipper, though.

For Hamburg: The Dorint Novotel Alster is brand new. It is located on a busy street and approx. 5 min. by train from Hauptbahnhof (Central Station). The Alster would be at least 12 min. by foot from the hotel - again down a busy street. The hotel appears to be reasonably nice (and even my favourite football team , HSV, has stayed there :-) ). Close by is the district of St. Georg, parts of which are quite nice, others rather seedy.
Again, there is another Accor property to which I'd at least want to bring your attention. The Mercure Messe is also located on a busy street, but is centrally located to the diverse and nice district around Hamburg University. Dammtor station is a 10 min. walk away. The hotel was formerly a Dorint and is quite new, too. It was designed by one of Hamburg's most famous architects by the name of Hadi Teherani. It features only small windows, but usually gets good reviews (and HSV football team has lodged here, too).
A quick rate check showed about the same rates: € 62.00 for the Messe, € 65.00 for the Alster, both of which restricted. Highest rates € 139.00 for the Messe and € 109 for the Alster. At a € 30.00 difference I'd probably opt for the Alster, at about the same rate I might jump for the Messe.

In that range, also do consider the new Intercity Hotel Hamburg Hauptbahnhof by Central Station. Right across the street from Central Station (and on the right side, the downtown area). The street in front of it is busy again, but it's only minutes to shops and the Inner Alster Lake.

Mike, I sent you an email on how to get a special rate for the Amsterdam Renaissance. Otherwise, your original 3 star choice, Grand Albus looks OK on the internet.

You can also check the Golden Tulip Hotel (Dutch chain)on Nieuwezijds/De Kolk. It's 4 star and often available for 99 euro. I've never seen the rooms but have been to the lobby. There is a restaurant nextdoor called Humphrey's which is a very good Dutch chain restaurant. They have a 3 course dinner menu of your choice for 20 euro per person. Nice ambiance, very good Dutch continental food and very lively. Try it if you have a chance.

As far as Hamburg, you should definitely stick to the Renaissance or Marriott in Hamburg if you're not using the points in Amsterdam.

hsv has already answered your question for Berlin. I'm also not thrilled about the area east of Alexandersplatz. I've never stayed with the Accor chain inside Germany. I would prefer the NH Hoteles chain (used to be Dutch owned but now Spanish). They have a number of 4 star NH hotels in Berlin.

DAX's suggestion of NH isn't bad, I think. The NH Berlin Mitte is in a good location (noisy street again, but still) between Potsdamer Platz and Friedrichstr. It is a modern hotel (should be soundproofed) and looks quite alright.