Those gruff Parisians...
 

When the Paris tourism board is promoting kindness and hospitality to its visitors, you know this <i>problem</i> is not just a stereotype. But with the extraordinary rise in street crime against tourists, maybe this will have some impact? I'm dubious.

From the Front Page online:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/21/wo...nchman.html?hp

I had to laugh when I read this. We have had only one really bad experience with rude waitstaff in Paris and it was at Brasserie de L'Isle St-Louis.

I lived in Paris for two years and have visited countless times since and have yet to encounter a rude person, much less waitstaff . . granted, the waitstaff do not plop in a chair at your table and say "Hi . . I'm Fluffy . . I'll be your waitress tonite" . . Nor do they stop by the table every 3 minutes saying "Is everything excellent??" . . They do their job and allow the patron to enjoy the experience.

Frankly, they ruin you for the American experience . .

Happy, I'm surprised, I Had a wonderful time there sitting outside while a jazz group performed on the bridge and my waiter was very friendly, chatted with me.

Thing is, if you were brought up in France where smiling is reserved for intimacy, where using more words than necessary is impolite (wasting the other's time), the only proper way to interact with somebody you don't know and meet in a professional setting is to be serious, brief, and to the point.

Americans misread this, constantly. Besides, how would you feel if you're busy while the umpteenth American today thinks it's cute or funny to practise his/her heavily mangled three words of French on you, expecting you to smile and be thrilled?

It's a cultural thing - and not only in France, for example go try the smiling American thing in Russia with people you don't know and you get the Siberian Cold treatment.

<i><font color=#555555>"go try the smiling American thing in Russia...and you get the Siberian Cold treatment"</font></i>

I would hope one could always find more warmth in France, since it is a much warmer climate (with glorious food).

I don't know if it is me that has changed or Paris, but I don't encounter rudeness much there any more. Some shop keeper can be a little cold, but if you go in to a shop a few times, they will warm up to you. At least that has been my experience.

I've seen customers behave extremely badly in cafes and restaurants and wait staffs that just deal with it with the same straight face they have with everyone. They must have insane reserves of patience.

Some things never change. For many decades, maybe a century, New Yorkers have led the way in identifying Parisian rudeness. New Yorkers!

rudeness is cultural in differences.
Here in Boston, I can go into a boutique, pick up a sweater to see how it looks. In Paris, that is rude, you ask the saleslady to show you.

I agree with the comments. During our month-long visit this past June we encountered no rudeness and no street crime, and we spent a lot of time in cafes, restaurants, stores, Metro stations, etc. away from the usual tourist areas. There are cultural differences in interpersonal style, but seldom a rude intent. BTW, as far back as 1999 on our way in from the airport (before we started using the RER) we saw a billboard saying that France benefits from visitors, so please be nice to them. The awareness that strangers often misperceive French behavior is not new.

I'm sure there are some gruff/rude wait staff and shop staff in Paris - but in my many trips there I have come across only one person who was difficult. (This was in a hotel in which we were holding a meeting and I reported the person to the meetings manager and they assigned another person. Perhaps he was just having a bad day - or he may have had a problem with working for a younger, female client.

However, there are definite differences in behavior in shops and restaurants from the US - and americans who come in without the appropriate greetings and expecting waitstaff to be bouncy madly grinning bambi - versus a professional waiter - may be put off (for no reason).

That's a really silly campaign that no French person is going to pay any attention to.

I have only encountered one rude person in Paris and I accept partial responsibility for that encounter.

We were waiting in line to enter the catacombs and we were next in line. As my husband and I entered I looked around to get my bearings for a second. Not having anyone to follow I was figuring out what to do when apparently the man at the turnstile was waiting for my greeting. I was distracted and actually didn't even see him.

I greeted the ticket agent, purchased our tickets and proceeded to hand them to the 'turnstile' guy. I smiled at him. He would not take my tickets. He just sat there, glaring at me. I tried to go through and he wouldn't release the turnstile. I was at a loss as to what was happening.

My husband told me that I had not yet said bonjour to him. After saying, 'bonjour' and smiling, he proceeded to let me through, but still glared at me. Boy, talk about a stickler for custom.

As a side note: I 'bonjoured and merci beau couped' my way all over Paris, and darn it if the first time I was distracted from doing so I was called on it, and rather harshly to I might add.

I think his reaction was a little extreme. Apparently smiling in no way alleviates you from the requisite 'bonjour', so don't even try it!

Of the many encounters we've had in France on our two short visits there, we encountered only 1 rude French person. I think that's ok and probably better than average in a month of travelling.

Another slow news day at the New York Times, but as we say <i>c'est de bonne guerre</i> for rival cities to continue to perpetrate such myths.

What would be news would be if the tourist board distributed brochures to arriving tourists telling them how to act rather than the reverse. "Be nice to tourists" is a common campaign which has been done sporadically for decades as a propaganda maneuver to please the francophobes.

Some incidents that might have thrown someone not quite on the same wavelength:

- at the Jean Moulin museum at Montparnasse, the (efficiant but not effusively smiling) desk assistant let me leave my day bag with her. When I went back for it she just looked at me blankly and said (in French) "Oh that? I've sold it."

- at a café near the Marmottan, I stopped for cup of coffee, only it was getting near lunchtime, so I asked if they'd room (it was nowhere near busy, but it looked like the kind of place that might book up for lunches): the waiter surveyed the room with a magnificent sweep and said gruffly "No, full" - before breaking into a broad smile.

The British, it advises, want to be called by their first names.>>

if this is the quality of the information being given out, I don't give the campaign much of a chance of success.

if only people who don't know me would STOP calling me by my first name. I like the formality of France.

and Paris is NOT France - many french people also find parisiens stuck up and stand-offish.

I remember that when the Japanese first began to travel <i>en masse</i> to Europe, it was the Japanese government that gave them brochures on how to behave in order to avoid a certain amount of embarassment that had already begun. One of the instructions was "do not take off your clothes on the train." Apparently, back in those days the Japanese were in the habit taking off their outer apparel and sitting in their underwear on long train trips. Since there was no TGV back then, quite a few routes qualified as "long train trips." They were also advised that nudity in hotel corridors was frowned on.

"The British, it advises, want to be called by their first names" well spotted Annhig

What planet? Some of the (imported) coffee shops even want me to give them my name but that is just marketing speak working. "Don't tell him Pike" I hear at the back.

No, some Brits like it. I tend to get "Sir" and feel elevated by the word, if a trifle guilty. :-)

<i><font color=#555555>"many french people also find parisiens stuck up and stand-offish"</font></i>

I know several Paris-born business owners who travel internationally for their companies. The things they tell me about their Parisian employees.

She may be negative and cynical at times, but perhaps StCirq is correct when she writes, <i><font color=#555555>"no French person is going to pay any attention."</font></i>

But if unemployment continues to rise, and more young people can't find jobs, it's difficult to know what message of hope will get through.

On travel boards like these, I have to laugh at the posters who write, <i><font color=#555555>"Of the many encounters we've had in France on our <b>two short</b> visits there, we encountered only 1 rude French person."</font></i> For many tourists who romanticize about Paris, these are official metrics.

Kerouac: I was in Japan before the 1964 Olympics, when there was a government campaign to change some habits of the Japanese. One thing they wanted to stop was the Japanese mens habit of urinating by the side of the road.

They wanted to improve some aspects of night life also. Bars were supposed to serve food as well as alcohol. I was with friends in an after-hours bar when a half-eaten sandwich was placed on our table, more or less in compliance with the new rule.

<i>One thing they wanted to stop was the Japanese mens habit of urinating by the side of the road.</i>

The Japanese are very welcome to urinate alongside all the continental European men who pee everywhere on the roads of Europe to this day. And yes, I do it, too.

Everyone would be so much better off in Paris if they just drank more vin rouge.

French waiters and the snoots at Maille Mustard are my best amis after I have had three Klonpins and a bottle of Calon Segur.


Thin

Subsitute Rome or Florence or Venice for Paris in that statement and it would be right on as well.

I have encountered rude Parisian waiters as well as Roman, Florentine and Venetian ones as well - goes with being a tourist town and one-off clientele - not so much a French thing - ever go to New York City - man they can made French waiters look like pussy cats.

I think it is kind of due to the service charge system where waiters are paid a decent salary - like the professionals they want to be considered to be - and are not groveling for tips - if American waits did the things that article says French waiters do they would get no tip at all.

But are the French ruder than most? IME of decades of travel there no except in some tourist places in Paris - like the time I just went into an RATP Info office to rouse the brochure rack and from the other side of the room booms the voice of a younger gal who in French excoriates me "You come into an office and you do not say Bonjour?" I mean she was irate - I did not know that in a public information office that was the protocol and whatever - I was taken back by that kind of overt rudeness.

My French sons and his age group (well when they were late teens) also said they encountered many rude waiters - once in Paris they waited about an hour for service while the waiter was on the phone and when he finally came was rude.

These are exceptions I think and in all my years of traveling and living in France folks seem like anyone else - some rude but most very nice and helpful - especially outside of Paris - indeed I still remember in one village I was biking thru a village one small store proprietro lady running after me in the street because I had dropped a 50 franc note by mistake - I've had more of these encounters than downright rudeness, which often I think is in the ear of the beholder.

Some Americans can also act in a way that invites rudeness - like the ugly American who ordered Nescafe and spit it out saying "I can't drink this sxxx and yelling at the waiter that he wanted proper coffee.

Yes rudeness can be in the ear of the beholder too.

like the time I just went into an RATP Info office to rouse the brochure rack and from the other side of the room booms the voice of a younger gal who in French excoriates me "You come into an office and you do not say Bonjour?" I mean she was irate ->>

to which the reply is surely "you work in a tourist information bureau and you shout at the customers?"

<<once in Paris they waited about an hour for service while the waiter was on the phone and when he finally came was rude.>>

there are other cafes and other waiters.

there are other cafes and other waiters>

I think they were waiting for a train to Amsterdam at Gare du Nord area so were sitting without hurrying and the waiter probably sized up these teens going to Amsterdam for the umpteenth time as stoners who may order only a beer - I think they may have been loud and gotten the same treatment at any cafes.

I'd be loud if I had to wait an hour to be served.

Well actually ann they did get to be loud and demanding service but the waiter just stayed on the phone - yeh I'd get loud as well.

It's preferable that people behave in a way that is their culture.

It would make more sense for these tourist boards to send brochures out to the visitors letting them know that Pierre is a professional, he doesn't have to introduce himself and the food is excellent. He will not need to interrupt you to ask. Thank you.

I would write back and ask them to please send a training team to America. My mother is crotchety in her golden years and the last time we went to a restaurant she instructed the waitress to leave the food and if we need you we'll tell you.

<i><font color=#555555>"ever go to New York City - man they can make French waiters look like pussy cats"</font></i>

Say what? Says who? I've been dining in NYC restaurants for 30+ years, and I can't recall the last time I received rude service. Service is not always perfect, but rude? I don't think so.

The restaurant scene here is extremely competitive. Owners who tolerate bad customer service won't have a business for very long, I can promise you that. In the off chance you do experience rudeness in a restaurant, a simple complaint may find your waiter without a job. It is that easy to get fired here.

Yes, you can find rudeness in NYC on a subway platform at rush hour or in a grocery check-out line at 6:30 PM. If you judge New Yorkers by how they behave going to and coming from work, you'd think we were all rude, angry animals. But when it comes to professional hospitality businesses, many of the brightest and best are here, doing one hell of a fine job and doing it with complete pride.

Most New York service businesses are NOT known for providing rude service. New York customers and owners won't tolerate it. Many New Yorkers will contact the Taxi and Limousine Commission if they experience a rude driver. Customers here are among the most demanding in the world. If you don't have what it takes, you WILL NOT survive.

As Liza sang, "If I can make it there, I'll make it anywhere." There's a reason why the song rings true.

Say what? Says who? I've been dining in NYC restaurants for 30+ years, and I can't recall the last time I received rude service. Service is not always perfect, but rude? I don't think so>

I guess I was talking about my own experiences with down-scale snack type places like the coffee shop on Seinfeld and not proper restaurants or maybe it was just New Yorkers being New Yorkers - anyway here in the mid-west New Yorkers have a rep of being rude - which I think may be endemic in any huge tourist city be it Paris or New York.

My husband and I have been studying French for 10+ years -- a great hobby which requires frequent trips to France to practice! :) Our teachers have included those born and raised in France. It was from them that we learned that upon entering a store, restaurant, office, whatever, as one crosses the threshold one says "bonjour" to the room. The same is appropriate at departure "au revoir/bon soir" whatever.

I can recall saying "bonjour" one day as we went into a small restaurant for dinner down the road from the gîte where we were staying in the countryside near Pau; the room of all-male truck drivers and all-male wait staff/cooks looked up and chorused "Bonjour Madame." We had the prix-fixe" (the garbure was wonderful) and said "Bien sûr!" to some wine. The waiter put a carafe on the table and gestured to the Pyrex glasses and to just help ourselves. I noted that the carafes on all the other tables (of professional drivers) were being emptied! At the end of the meal the waiter eyeballed the jug and said 4 euros for the wine we'd had. And it wasn't bad!

Now I suspect that gesture of greeting "the room" is not necessary at Gallerie Lafayette or such, but in any small shop/office/restaurant I think it holds true. At first it is hard to remember, but I have to say by the time I get home, I walk into the neighbourhood pharmacy and say "bonjour!" and get all sorts of looks. Ah well, we enjoy learning and experiencing different places.

As for rudeness -- simply haven't experienced it in Paris or NYC by those in the service industry. Certainly we have experienced efficiency, but not rudeness.

I am sorry to hear of the experiences that some of those sharing their stories have experienced -- or their family members have. When I have experienced rudeness (drivers cutting in, rude gestures because I choose to drive the speed limit not well over it - I'm talking in Canada not Germany) I recall what my godfather told me, "As in a kick from an ass, consider the source.)

Everytime my French son - born and bred in France returns to France he comes back and says 'how rude the French are' - true and many of his relatives say the French are rude to the French and that ii is a cultural train - not in service industries but at least some French think the French are at times rude to each other.

Recently was with these French folk at a seaside cafe in a non foreign tourist town and they all were disgusted with the waiter for his non chalence and rudeness - true story so it does happen even to the French.

Whether foreign tourists pick this up in tourist places probably not as much as at least some French I know claim it is kind of a cultural train, much to their dismay - when they come to the States they all remark 'how friendly Americans are' - like saying high to strangers passing on the street - rare in France but common here and something the French I know seem to like and lament at the stern public attitude of French back home.

an aside. One year I went to France with a cast on my arm.
It was one of my best trips., a truck driver would raise his arm TO SHOW HIS CAST, entering a restaurant on the road a guy stood up to show me his cast, FEW TIMES LATER, I felt like I belonged to a secret society :)

I completely agree with Snobby.

Pal, you are making all this up just to take the Mickey out.


Thin

I thought it was Frank who sang that song, not Liza.

Pal, you are making all this up just to take the Mickey out.>

everything I have reported is true - and these things happen to ordinary French and to me an ordinary tourist - folks not going to the typical high-end places I think most American tourists naturally want to go on the trip of a lifetime - in an upscale store or restaurant I would never ever expect rudeness or the staff would be toast - thus most folks here report they have encountered no rudeness but the French themselves and moi aussi have encountered downright rudeness that cannot be excused and also is not unique to France nor Paris.

There are the French and there are the Parisiens.
throughout France, the natives always acknowledged us when walking into the dining room for breakfast or dinner and also when walking on the same path.

There are real and comical antagonisms between northern French and southern French and bad service can be one of the consequences. In cases like that, often a foreign tourist will be served better than someone from another part of France.

Bienvenue chez les Ch’tis.
:-)