This strange obsession with Paris...
 

I must say that I’m absolutely mystified by (mostly) women’s obsession with how they dress in Paris and with what the French will think of them. <BR><BR>I know that all human beings are deeply affected by what we read and what we see in films and on television, but come on! Paris really is just another city (not a particularly large or diverse one at that); it is not some sort of Holy Grail. I’m not trying to willfully rain on someone’s parade but I was soooo disappointed with my first trip to Paris. I will not deny that there is beautiful architecture and museums there but the same is true in any number of cities all over the world. <BR><BR>Our first impression was that everyone in the city woke up on the wrong side of the bed. I’m an American and my companions were English and none of us were treated very kindly, but then the Parisians don’t treat each other very kindly either. It’s kind of like everyone is vaguely irritated with everyone else. (We talked with a fellow from Montreal, the second largest French speaking city in the world, and he was incensed that some Parisian implied that they could barely understand him because he didn’t speak “real” French!)<BR><BR>The city is absolutely covered in dog crap to a degree that I found scandalous. Almost anywhere there is grass or bare dirt will be covered with dog droppings! Quoting the National Geographic, #176. (Remember that this is one of the most respected, pre-emanate periodicals on the planet.)<BR><BR> “One French home in three shelters a dog and that dog can do no wrong. Not even in Paris, where someone once calculated that pedestrians step in dog droppings every 286th step!”<BR><BR>Now, if that’s your idea of high-class, so be it, but personally I think it’s time to demystify the whole Paris thing as it is more mirage than reality. It’s a nice place but it is a very long way from being Shangri-La. If this “image” of up-scale/high class/romanticism is your thing, go to Monaco and see how the other half REALLY lives.<BR>

I could do without all the merde du chien, and the smoking, but, c'mon Ubermench, Paris is hardly "just another city."

That guy from "Montreal" must have been some hick from the country side.

Ubermench<BR><BR>I agree with you. The people on these boards are so impresed with themselves for being so worldly and nothing makes these people feel more worldly than the fact that they have been to Paris. Did you see the thread about "Is there anything better than Creme Brulee in Paris." Jeez, I thought I ws back in high school. Look at me, I've been to paris and had Creme Brulee...whoop dee do. There's a certain mystique that the French have on these people with marginal self esteem who try to elevate their persona by going to places like Paris and then telling everyone, who will and won't listen, about it. That crowd is attracted to these board like a fly to honey.

Well Lillian, aren't you the sophisticated world traveler.

hear hear! It's not like anyone changes when they come to America. It's vacation, not a fashion show! Why should I change my life to travel, I'm happy with who I am and love the way I dress, and don't care what anyone else thinks! If anyone in Paris or where ever else in europe that doesn't like it and thinks 'look at that ugly tourist', screw em', don't look at me and worry about yourself with your snobbish ways!

jerrybailey<BR><BR>Well, I've been to Wellington, NZ, Hobart, Tasmania, Sydney, Australia, Oslo, Paris, Germany, Lisbon, Portugal, Venice, Rome, Sicily, Turky, Greece, Canada, Monaco, Alaska, Mexco, South and Central America, Africa and a few others I can't remember. So I believe I am a world traveller. What you won't find is my name attached to a thread like Creme Brulee...oh La la.

I have to disagree. I spent a week in Paris recently (yes, aren't I important!) and no one - truly no one - was rude to us. We found most of the shop employees to be extremely helpful and even generous. Many of our purchases were supplemented without our asking with samples of other products. I bought a purse and was given a 5% discount because "Madame, it is last year's style, and I can't charge you full price." How would I have known what was last year's style. I believe you get what you give. Respect and politeness is returned. I also believe we were treated kindly because we were two females traveling together. As far as dress is concerned, I feel good about myself if I know I look my best - I don't dress for others, but my own self esteem.

Lillian, some people may, indeed, attempt to -- as you put it -- "levate their persona by going to places like Paris and then telling everyone, who will and won't listen, about it."<BR><BR>Others, however, simply love Paris. It's not a perfect city by any means, but it's a very interesting and beautiful one.

Beth; I loved what you had to say. Im going with my best friend to Paris this Sept. Our 1st trip and we are very excited. I know I'll come home with a great experience. Thanks for the positive!

Elizabeth<BR><BR>Bring a pooper scooper.

Paris is a wonderful place - my husband and I visit annually. The streets are steeped in history, the architecture is magnificent, the river is inspirational. In all our visits, we have never stepped in doggy-doo because we look for it. Indeed that is my least favorite part of Paris, but doggy-doo on the sidewalks is not unique to Paris. We are vigilant because we lived in a small British town (will remain unnamed so I don't get flamed for being anti-British, which I am not) which was as bad or worse. I am me in Paris, I do not pretend to be anyone else. Outside of an arrogant waiter (who was rather comical), we have never been treated with other than warmth and pleasantries. The shops we frequent are charming and their owners quite nice - they remember us from year to year. One shop, where I buy shoes, does not participate in detaxe so they give us accessories and other goodies. And, we don't get treated any less in the larger more impersonal department stores. When we visit Paris, as we try to everyday, we try to remember the Golden Rule and it seems to work. If you don't like Paris, I hope you can find a city, town or other place that refreshes your soul and lets you create fond memories. Paris isn't perfect, but then it's all a matter of opinion an priority.

I never thought the people of Paris to be particularly rude, but certainly cold and aloof. They, like so many American travelers, seem to believe their own press. I agree wholeheartedly with the original post though. Paris is lovely, it is fun, but it’s not the end-all. I really wonder how it came to such a lofty position when you look at cities like Vienna, Naples, Rio, and many, many others.<BR><BR>I will also agree that, though we spoke a smattering of French and ALWAYS said “please and thank-you”, we did get the overall impression that the people we dealt with would have been just as happy if we vanished. I couldn’t believe that the French were so obsessive about their language that they cannot even print warning labels and escape plans in any other language. Out of Paris NONE of the churches and historic sites we visited posted any information except in French. Perhaps if all the Germans, English, Americans, Greeks, Spanish, etc. just stopped going there for a year the French might realize which side of the baguette the butter is on and be a bit more amicable.<BR><BR>And yeah, that dog poop thing is pretty hard to take. This constitutes “romance?” Go figure. I was raised on a ranch and took care of cattle. Of all the descriptive phrases that ran through my head when I had to shovel out a corral or barn, “romantic” was not among them. Then on the other hand, I guess the French don’t bother with shoveling out anything, judging the quantity of crap in Paris. Perhaps that explains the fixation for expensive perfumes?<BR>

Ubermench and Lillian have certainly made me see the light. What should I do now? Any recommendations for places to visit, in addition to Monaco, that you deem sophisticated? Do you have email addresses where I could send my replies or posts for dorkiness and naivete review?

thank heavens<BR><BR>Try LA, you'll love it there.<BR><BR>Send you e-mail to:<BR><BR>[email protected]

Ubermensch: "emanate" is not the word you were looking for: I suggest you look it up, both for meaning and pronunciation. The term you should have used is "pre-eminent". Whole different animal. (Just figured it was my day to be Word Police).

I am amazed by the amount of energy some people invest in sharing their hates and disappointments. Why bother? Why not tell us what you love, rather than what you hate?<BR><BR>Don't assume that those of us who dress well in Paris are dressing any differently than we dress at home. In fact, if a visit to any city requires a drastic change in wardrobe or appearance, then perhaps you wouldn't really enjoy that city. And if you don't dress well at home, then perhaps you should rethink leaving the house.<BR><BR>

We were "interviewed" as we left the Invalides; when asked, my suggestion as how to make it more enjoyable for visitors was to have some labeling in English. The young woman said that was a recurring request; but just the fact that visitors were being polled seems to show that there is thought given to making a tourist stay more informative and pleasant.<BR><BR>Elizabeth - have a wonderful time. It is a beautiful city with some "imperfections". But, then don't we all....

Re: Lilian's comment "What you won't find is my name attached to a thread like Creme Brulee...oh La la."<BR><BR>Which is perhaps what made that thread such an enjoyable read.<BR><BR>Chacun a son gout! If you don't like Paris, don't go there!<BR> <BR>

Lilian<BR><BR>"people with marginal self esteem who try to elevate their persona"<BR><BR>Sounds like you really know what you're talking about.

Iffin I reads Vanitty Fair 'n' Town 'n' Country maggazeens, do y'all think I could be jerst as sofisticatet as Ubermench 'n' Lilian? cuz I think they's right about Paris - I done bin to Texas many times, 'n' Paris is jerst a hellhole.

Paris is wonderful,some people like it,some don't.<BR>But liking a city does not make a person more or less wonderful...as Lilian seems to think she is.<BR><BR>Uber-(German)great <BR>Mench(Yiddish)person<BR>So far,U, you're not living up to your name.<BR><BR>RE:Creme brulee thread:<BR>It was lighthearted,friendly and some people as usual took themselves too seriously-sort of like Lilian<BR>.But like Lilian, people on these sites really need to stop taking all of this so personally-getting offended by other peoples questions and answers is so Lame!

Lillian, look what you've started, the marginals are coming out of the wood work.<BR><BR>Can't wait to read the posts from tonight after they start drinking. Look out...........

Gosh some of you folks go a long way to find fault. The original posting said nothing a Paris being “unsophisticated,” rather it seemed to express some surprise that it has achieved the reputation it has as THE “romantic city.”<BR><BR>Suddenly people are reading into a fairly simple, straightforward question some rather ominous things. Immediately a something as inconsequential as a single misspelled word is attacked (no surprise there, this is Fodor's), then there was an oblique reference to a “super Jew,” then it is taken as an attack on someone’s personal appearance, wow! I just thought it raised an interesting point.<BR><BR>I hate to side with Lillian who might have gone a bit overboard, but maybe it’s true. The real Francophiles can’t face criticism of their ideal. Why such vitriol toward someone else’s opinion because it differs from that of those who love France? Relax. I’ve read it twice and don’t believe Ubermench personally attacked you or, for that matter, even Paris. It was just an observation and a few of you seem to be reading far too much into it. Having never been to Paris (France or Texas) I’ll be broadminded enough to take it under advisement. Pardon me while I proofread this and pray I didn’t misspell or misuse a word or two…<BR>

What good does it do to travel the world if you can't tell anyone about it?

This is, admittedly, only the opinions of two Parisians but my girlfriend & I were discussing the people in Rome vis-a-vis the people in Paris with two Parisians we met in Rome last month and they both said they felt that Romans are, overall, friendlier than Parisians. And, although I love Paris and haven't found Parisians to be outright rude at all, that's my feeling as well: Romans, in general, are warmer, more animated, and more welcoming (perhaps because, as one guidebook noted, they've had tourists -- i.e. religious pilgrims -- coming to Rome for hundreds of years.)<BR><BR>I also would bet that, within France itself, one would find a lot of French people in outlying areas who feel that Parisians are not that friendly, or are comparitively rude, just as you'd probably find people in other parts of the U.S. who feel that way about New Yorkers. <BR><BR>

fuzzzzwhatever-no one mentioned jew.<BR>yiddish is a language stupid.

never mind....

Dear TAKE MY ADVICE:<BR><BR>Uber-Super<BR>Mensch-Man<BR><BR>Ubermensch is German (not Yiddish) for SUPERMAN.<BR><BR>Donka.

Fuzzbucket aka Ubermench aka Lilian Please finish your homework and go hang out at the video arcade. You're awfully boring, even for teenagers.

I dress very nice at home, but not when I'm walking all day going sight seeing, or to museums or what ever, I wear shorts! So why should it matter if I go to another country? unless it's cold. When I have to look good or dress more chic, I do. I love Paris, been there four times, and even studied there in high school, always have worn shorts in the summer, that's who I am, I don't do pants unless I'm going out or to dinner. I don't understand the big deal? Parisians don't wear shorts, good for them, that's their choice, I do and always will, if I stick out I don't care. I have a friend who has lived there for six years, she married to a Parisian man, looks very Parisian, speaks fluent french (he doesn't even speak english), and she says that she always still will get responded to in english and that they know she's american. You cannot hide from it, so why not do what you want and quit worrying about what everyone thinks about you. "That man at the cafe, who I will never see again might think I am an american, oh no I should put some pants on and look more dressed up, because that's going to help" Give me a break!

"I couldn’t believe that the French were so obsessive about their language that they cannot even print warning labels and escape plans in any other language."<BR> I remarked to my husband when we returned from France that the French were more language accomodating than we Americans are. In the International Terminal at Logan Airport there is English and only English. In Paris there are many signs in English. All the signs at CDG are in French and English. Anie, if you are an American maybe you should think before you castigate the French for being obsessive about their language in their country. Americans are obsessive about their language in every country in the world.

Interesting to follow this thread. I, myself, have been on both sides of this issue. Our first time to Paris in 1973 was a disaster. Didn't have hotel reservations, the tourist office laughed at us, the Intercontinental Hotel people insinuated that we couldn't afford a room there and then kept us on tenterhooks day by day as to whether or not we could extend our stay. Returned saying I'd never go there again and that Brussels was what Paris should be. Went to France for several years thereafter and stayed in St. Germaine en Laye and looked across at but did not re-enter Paris. Finally went back with another couple, enjoyed ourselves mightily and now go once a year and can never get enough. Sometimes things happen wrong and it colors your idea of a place for a long time. And sometimes things happen right and you learn to love the same place. Sometimes you or the place change in between.

I hope that all the folks out there who can’t stand to hear questions or comments about Paris, however vaguely negative, are over their pique of heartbreak and rage. Myself, I still want to know; does anyone have an INTELLIGENT opinion on one of the original points, i.e., how did Paris become the big Kahoona of romance over other cities easily as beautiful such as Vienna, Naples, or somewhere else?<BR><BR>(IF YOU’RE TOO OBTUSE TO GET IT: THIS IS NOT AN ATTACK ON Paris. RELAX. NO HARM INTENDED. LEGITIMATE QUESTION. LOOK FOR RATIONAL REPLIES WITH NO MENTION OF YOUR CLOTHES. DO NOT, REPEAT, DO NOT TAKE THIS AS A PERSONAL AFFRONT ON THE French CAPITAL. TRY TO REFRAIN FROM CALLING ME A TROLL. DO NOT TELL ME TO STAY HOME; I DON’T HAVE TO. DO NOT IMPLY THAT I HAVE NO RIGHT TO ASK A QUESTION ON THIS FORUM. IF YOU FIND A MISSPELLED OR MISUSED WORD, CONGRATUALATIONS, BUT I DON’T CARE. IF YOU CANNOT ANSWER THE QUESTION WITHOUT POINTING OUT HOW MANY TIMES YOU’VE BEEN TO Paris AND HOW MUCH YOU LOVE IT AND HOW SUPERIOR IT IS TO ANYWHERE ELSE ON EARTH PLEASE DON’T RESPOND.)<BR><BR>Thank you. Thank you very much.<BR>

The Met in NYC doesn't post labels in any language other than English. Have they changed all the labels in the Smithsonian yet? <BR><BR>Even Americans can't agree that English should be the primary language (there was a huge ruckus in Florida because some towns there have adopted or want to adopt Spanish as their towns' official language).<BR><BR>

Barry<BR>Yes-Ubermensche can be considered German, Superman-it originally came from the Nazi theory of Super men.<BR>But Mensche is Yiddish for a "man, person' as in he was a real mensche.<BR><BR>So either way you look at it,mr ubermensche here ....Isn't.

Zacharia, I don't think that Paris is the big Kahuna of romance for everyone. Some may very well prefer Vienna, or Naples, or Prague, or Lisbon, or Dublin.<BR><BR>Personally I love Paris, but now that I've been to Rome twice I find it, overall, more romantic than Paris.<BR><BR>Ubermench just had me shaking my head with his/her claim that Paris is "just another city." To say it's not most spectacular city in the world is one thing; to say it's "just another city" borders on, IMO, the ridiculous. <BR><BR>Ubermensch also wrote "I think it's time to demystify the whole Paris thing as it is more mirage than reality. It's a nice place but it is a very long way from being Shangri-La."<BR><BR>Again, I'd agree it's not Shangri-La (or even Shangri-Ti or Shangri-Do), but it's also a lot more than simply a nice place. And why, exactly, is it "time" to "demystify" Paris when, IMO, the flaws and imperfections of Paris have never been intentionally obscured in the first place? <BR><BR>

Which country has more rude people? Read these posts, and I can say it may well be the USA.

Oh, heck, now the teenagers are adding stupid and rude to boring. Zachariah, you are the poster child for planned parenthood, aren't you?

Hi<BR><BR>I've been following the thread titled <BR>This strange obsession with Paris...<BR><BR>It seems to me there are cities, and there are "world cities".<BR><BR>From my experience, world cities are -<BR><BR>San Francisco<BR>Sydney<BR>London<BR>Berlin<BR>Seoul<B R>Tokyo<BR>Cairo<BR>Paris<BR>Rome<BR>Rio<BR><BR><B R>In order of number of letters !<BR><BR>Of course this is subjective,<BR><BR>Any comments ?<BR><BR>Peter<BR><BR>