The framework of my 2 week Italy multi city trip - pls. comment
 

As I've mentioned before, I will be travelling with young kids. I have therefore decided against using the train from one point to the next even though this can save me time. Just thinking about lugging my kids plus all our suitcases to the trains is stressing me out.

1.Fly into Rome
2. Rome to Florence by ES (1 1/2 hours right?)
back to Rome (I am treating Florence as an extended day trip from Rome as it will allow me to leave most of my luggage in Rome and therefore minimise luggage handling in the train to Florence)
3. From Rome fly into Venice
4. Venice to Milan (are there no direct flights? is train travel my only option?)

Should I buy the tickets in advance from the raileurope website? I have a problem with this as this ties us up to a specific time but how difficult would it be to buy onsite - managing queues, getting seats together, and managing the ticket machines.

Venice to Milan is only a ~3 hour train ride. I'm sure you could fly, but it hardly seems worth it for such a short distance. You can buy train tickets in Venice right befor you go, day before or same day, it's a very common route, no advantage to doing so in advance.

I think taking kids on a train is easier than a plane... because once you're ON there's room for them to get up and move around.

If I were in your shoes and planning this trip, I'd mimimize the luggage and do it all by train, with out the backtracking. (In other words go, Rome, to Florence, to Venice, in a continual line.)

Agree with everything Suze said.

Personally I find dragging luggage to an airport, on and off a shuttle or van service, going early, dealing with lines and security check especially with kids and then killing time waiting for the plane to much more of drag than getting to a train station and getting on the train. Train stations are generally in the middle of the city with a short cab ride to your hotel whereas airports can be some distance away especially if you use the discount airlines. And most of the time the train is much quicker. But it is your preference.

Buying tickets through E Rail is far more expensive that buying once in Rome. Ticket machines are relatively easy to use and are in English but you will need to know the Italian spelling of the cities traveling to. Or you can always use a ticket window.

For that trip, I would spend my time in Rome, train to Florence for a couple of days, and then to Venice. The train station in Venice dead ends at the Grand Canal.

We have done Florence as a day trip from Rome many times and it's very easy to do. We have also managed to work in a climb up the leaning tower on the same day. There are a number of ES city trains between Venice and Milan - it's about 2.5 hours.

You should have no trouble at all buying a ticket just before boarding the train. Unless of course it's some VERY busy travel holiday, or a train strike.

The train from Rome to Venice is about 3hrs 45 mins. Considering flight time and airport transfer times you might consider train from Rome to Venice.

I agree with the others. Flights for such short distances make no sense, and the hassle to me would be way more than train travel. Seems like your luggage issues may be the problem here - check out the many threads on traveling light.

Buy your tickets when you get there. Buying in advance for the trips you have planned will likely cost you far more, and then you've got one more thing to remember to bring with you.

P.S. And kids just love trains!

Believe me I've thought about that for a long time but I tend to overpack and overbuy souvenirs that I always have luggage issues. Given that I'm travelling in October, I have the added load of jackets to keep us warm at night...

Anyway, is Rome to Venice the best route? Should I do Rome to Milan and then do Milan to Venice instead?

luggage issue: Some say I could climb mount Everest with just a carry-on, but aside from that - My most valued travel accessory is a carry-on sized bag that fold into a pouch about 7"x7"x1" It goes with me everywhere. I fill it up with all my new goodies for the trip home. It then becomes my new flight carry on bag. The original (with all the old stuff in it) is checked.

"Anyway, is Rome to Venice the best route? Should I do Rome to Milan and then do Milan to Venice instead?"
Both choices are about the same.

Meanwhile, I agree that you should rethink the train option. For travel by train, you can take a taxi between hotel and station, walk five minutes through the station, get on the train, and settle in for the ride. So 10 minutes of possible discomfort. If you were flying, you'd be walking and standing and shlepping and waiting for a lot more time.

In particular, it is MUCH EASIER to arrive by train in Venice than by plane. The airport is on the mainland, and even the easiest arrival, using a private water taxi, will involve dragging your luggage 5-10 minutes from the terminal to the boat dock, and then paying 100 euro to reach your hotel. In contrast, Venice SL train station is right in Venice—walk off the train and out the door and onto a vaporetto (or private taxi) to your hotel.

If you know that you tend to overpack -- than don't. I never understand that comment. It is one thing to overpack and not realize that you are doing it from lack of experience. But to deliberately overpack, is ridiculous !! Get a handle on the packing. You can get a nearly direct train to Venice. Have you really consider the amount of total time wasted using a place for short distances. Focus on what is important rather than trying to accommodate that which is not.

Rome to Venice, or Rome to Milan to Venice are both fine. Where is your flight home leaving out of?

I still say getting a handle on your (over) packing and using the trains is by FAR the easiest solution here. As far as jackets, have people wear them (or carry) they don't need to be packed in a suitcase. 1 rolling suitcase per person + a folded up duffle bag you can take out mid trip for extra space and souveniers.

What I don't understand is if your luggage is too much to deal with on the train, isn't it a big problem going to & from airports too (in and out of hotels, in taxis, etc.)?

Okay I will seriously rethink my travel plans and work out my pack rat issues. But really, how can one travel light? With all the cities we are going to, there is definitely no time to do laundry. We just got back from spending a few days in Australia where it is winter and the family we travelled with wore basically the exact same clothes for 4-5 days. I simply refuse to do that.

Any thoughts if I'm better off Rome to Venice then venice to milan as opposed to Rome to Milan then milan to venice?

Lastly, if I buy tickets from the ticket counter - do the queues tend to be long? Will it be hard to get seats together?

Suze to answer your question: I can check in the luggages for flights. For train rides, my husband and I will lug the suitcases all the way to the train plus mind our children. We recently took a train trip from HK to China and doing this wasn't that easy as the train station was quite busy and there is always a mad rush to get to the right cabin.

packing issue: For a jacket, I have an unlined, unhooded windbreaker style jacket that literally fits in a sandwich bag. Layered with a t-shirt and light sweater it gets me through just about anything. Clothing scrunched up in zip lock bags is a must. I carry a tiny bottle of wrinkle releaser. I use only thin cotton items that will dry overnight, 2 colors - white and brown things or white and black things. For a bit of color I bring perhaps a yellow or green t-shirt. A zip lock bag of white cotton socks and one of white cotton underware are perfect. If need be, I throw them out. Fresh sock save shoes and feet, and fresh underware saves outer ware washing.

When exactly are you going?

"But really, how can one travel light?"

I always pack light because I usually rent an apt (with washer and dryer) for several days somewhere along the way. Doing laundry in an apt doesn't reduce my sightseeing time- I throw in a load before I leave in the morning then do another in the evening. Apts are a great choice when you travel with kids because there is typically more room and you can eat breakfast or snacks "at home."

When I stay only in hotels or I'm on a cruise I send my laundry out for cleaning midway through my trip or find a laundry service nearby and take it there myself. Expensive? Not really. Definitely worth it to be able to pack light and not spend my precious travel time doing laundry.

I do rewear clothes at least two days unless dealing with extreme heat. I don't give myself multiple choices in clothing and only take a couple pair of shoes.
Ann Marie

<the family we travelled with wore basically the exact same clothes for 4-5 days.>
Well yes, something like that is how people travel light. Change their inner clothes, but rewear the outer ones. But since you don't want to do that and don't want to do laundry, then I guess you are stuck with packing a bunch of clothes and carrying them around with you!

I don't think the order of Rome, Milan, Venice matters. It's the same distance regardless. On a map - Rome, Milan, Venice is the order the cities fall.

As far as buying train tickets & how long the lines are & if you can get seats together, just depends on if you purchase 1st or 2nd class tickets (1st is typically roomier and less crowded) and how busy that particular train is. Try not to go during local commuting-to-work times or major holidays.

Thanks for the answer about flights vs. trains. It still doesn't make sense to me, but it seems to work for you and your family. As others have mentioned, train stations are in the central part of these cities, you just show up, buy a ticket, get on the plane. Airports are outside cities, and you need to have ticket pre-purchased, take a taxi out to the airport, check in, wait hours for the flights, etc. etc.

Ya, queues can be long depending on time of day. There is a ticket office in the airport which rarely has a line. Just time it a little or find a travel office in the city. Rome to Milan to Venice probably will involve a train change. Without checking the schedule, you can do that, I am sure there is a train to Venice that does not involve a change. Don't use R Europe site for that information.

If you are not prepared to do a little hand laundry or use a self laundry then you do have to pack a lot of stuff. We have no problem wearing the same outer pants for several days. Way not, don't get that dirty. Second, underwear and shirts are always clean so what is the problem?

I have often posted that traveling light is BOTH learned behavior and attitude. Have a cousin who believes that wearing the same clothes for more than eight hours is unAmerican and doing laundry while on vacation is out of the question. That is her travel style and is willing to pay the price with lots of luggage. We did 35 days in Europe with two sons and one carryon size bag per person. Worked for us -- probably will not work for you.

opps show up and get on the TRAIN :-)

ellenem's comments are right on. Even if you overpack and have larger than carry-on bags, you're going to be hauling luggage for transportation purposes and I think train travel is easier than dealing with airports. If you're not used to train travel, don't let the unfamilar scare you, it's easy.

All your potential routes offer direct service (no switching of trains). With kids and excess luggage I would avoid having to change trains even if the price or times are better (unless you have a long-ish "layover"). I've made 5 minute transitions that never would have happened w/ a big bag or kids in tow.

Ya, queues can be long depending on time of day. There is a ticket office in the airport which rarely has a line. Just time it a little or find a travel office in the city. Rome to Milan to Venice probably will involve a train change. Without checking the schedule, you can do that, I am sure there is a train to Venice that does not involve a change. Don't use R Europe site for that information.

If you are not prepared to do a little hand laundry or use a self laundry then you do have to pack a lot of stuff. We have no problem wearing the same outer pants for several days. Way not, don't get that dirty. Second, underwear and shirts are always clean so what is the problem?

I have often posted that traveling light is BOTH learned behavior and attitude. Have a cousin who believes that wearing the same clothes for more than eight hours is unAmerican and doing laundry while on vacation is out of the question. That is her travel style and is willing to pay the price with lots of luggage. We did 35 days in Europe with two sons and one carryon size bag per person. Worked for us -- probably will not work for you.

Thanks for the replies and tips. Just to clarify: I am not against laundry. We stayed in Paris for over a week before and I handwashed our socks, underwear etc just fine. But I'm staying 2-3 days per city with this trip, I'm not entirely sure this is enough time to get the clothes dry if I handwash them while to go to a laundromat would be wasting sightseeing time.

Even if I do bring along just a rolling suitcase for each of us with everything squeezed in packmates, I feel that hubby and I do not have enough hands to drag those along plus hold our kids' in train stations busy with pickpockets etc...

If it's only 2 weeks, you should be able to pack enough clothes in a carryon size suitcase. But even if you aren't able to do this, I've never found that I had to wheel my suitcase any more distance in a typical train station than I do in a typical airport. And not having to get to the train station 2 hours before the train leaves is wonderful.

There are laundry services where you drop off your clothes. You don't have to stay and do them yourself ("wasting sightseeing time").

I still don't understand why you believe moving your family thru a train station ("busy with pickpockets") is so much more difficult than moving them thru an airport, but it seems you're mind is really made up already on that.

You mentioned pickpockets at train stations. If you use a self service machine, have someone watching your back. Don't let anyone come up too close behind you. They often target tourist who are engrossed with making self service ticket purchases. Kids are good at standing guard while looking at the next person in line.

And don't forget: In Rome, public transport to the airport leaves from the train station. In Paris also, I think, but I haven't been there in decades.

Thanks again to everyone. TravMimi, I've never heard of wrinkle releasers before. Thanks for that. I'll go head down to the travel shop soon for one of those. I hope they have it here.

Suze, at airports I go down from the cab - go straight to check in and get rid of my bags leaving all of us luggage free except perhaps for one handcarry for my entire family. At train stations, the platform to the actual train itself can sometimes be far and I'm lugging all these things with me apart from trying to keep close tabs on my kids. In all my travel experiences, I've never been in an airport that are as crowded as some train stations get. Perhaps that's just my limited experience but that's where I'm coming from. I do so much research online for my trips that I've read so much bad train travel experiences in Italy - there's an entire thread at another travel site - that has raised my anxiety level up a notch. Hope that finally explains that.

Well, it's your trip and you should do what you want to do, but I'll just add that I traveled all over Europe, but mainly France and Italy, ALONE with two young kids, and train travel was ALWAYS far easier than airports. Of course, I had a small rollaboard, even for a 6-week trip, and my kids each had a very small one plus a backpack.

zizz, I'm not sure where you are located but here in the US, Downy makes a wrinkle releaser that you can buy in grocery stores, Target, etc.

zizz~ You don't need to explain to me. Do what makes you comfortable.

That said, why do you believe "another travel site" that is raising your anxiety. Yet you don't believe the 98% of the people here saying that the train is the easier solution in your situation for your propose itinerary?

Another way to ease your anxiety would be to find a travel agency that is an official ticket seller for Trenitalia. You can buy all your tickets at once for all your train trips in the much more relaxing atmosphere of a travel agency rather than a busy train station. They will be able to assist you in choosing the correct family tickets for your situation.

By the way, the check-in lines at Italian airports are the worst I've seen anywhere, and I'm from NYC.

I am a fully aware that train travel is easier and faster. I think I mentioned that right of the bat. At the end of the day, IMHO it's all a matter of one's personal comfort/preference. That I'm willing to waste probably money and particularly time to keep my kids from busy train stations and from possible theft is my own choice. The same goes for me refusing to repeat clothes I've worn before. And believe me being unAmerican (???) has nothing to do with it as I have no single drop of American in me. Speaking of clothes, I am also aware of laundromats that do it for you vs. the self-service kind. I've done this before but apart from business hotels who do next day delivery for an exorbitant amount, I'm not aware that the small shops do the same. Usually, it takes a few days and by the time it's ready, I'll probably be in another town by then.

Are train stations in Italy crowded the whole day? Should I be targetting a spec time as I still have the train trips Rome-Florence and Venice-Milan to hurdle? I've never used the train in Italy. In our last Rome trip without kids, I do remember that most people in the various tours we took who used the train complained about the crush of people. Is this just with Rome itself or any train station within Italy?

Self-service laundries wash, dry and fold your clothes in a few hours.

What crush of people? Roma Termini is a busy station, there are many people at most hours of the day, but the only "crush" is sometimes at the door to the train as people get off and on.

What theft are you keeping your kids from? No one, not even the most zealous pickpocket, is going to steal from a kid's backpack. And your own and your husband's money can be in a moneybelt that no pickpocket can get at.

P.S. Are you sure the people on the tours were complaining about railway trains and not subway trains? The Metro trains in Rome *are* crowded; on almost all railway trains, all seats are reserved and there is no crowding at all.

I'm sure that I'm going to have a hundred people jump on this response but.... here goes:

Have you considered renting a one-day car rental between locations?

I rented a car in Venice last year to drive to Florence because I didn't want to deal with the train. The cost was less than 90USD (it was an economy size) which was less than the cost of 2 first class ES tickets.

As you say, comfort and preference are important.

<<That I'm willing to waste probably money and particularly time to keep my kids from busy train stations and from possible theft is my own choice.>>

Agreed. It's your vacation, your choice. Do you think your kids will be pleased to spend twice if not more time waiting for check-in in thronged Italian airports than they would in train stations? With the same likelihood of pickpockets? If protection of your kids is your paramount issue, I think you've got it all wrong.

You can drop clothes off at laundromats and get them back in a few hours.

Trains in Italy aren't crowded. Everyone gets a seat, just like on Amtrak.

No one advocates wearing the same clothes over and over. I pack very lightly and don't do that. In fact, I tend to dress rather stylishly most of the time. I've just perfected the art of packing light, over time.

Don't know where you've been gathering information outside of Fodors, but a lot of it seems to be MISinformation.

how many children do you have and how old are they?

Not being nosy, seems to be the most relevant detail in your planning.

My kids are 5 and 9. I don't think they have any clue about the long waiting time at airports vs. the speedier process of train travel nor would it matter much to them as opposed to adults. They're too young to even know that. When we travel, they only complain about walking from one place to another all the time which is why any sightseeing planned for the day is always light i.e. less museums, more parks. In fact, any waiting for anything is considered a downtime where they can play together or play with their nintendo ds and itouch.

I phrased it incorrectly. I wasn't expecting people to steal from my kids' backpacks. In fact, as much as possible I try not to let them carry anything because they spend the whole time complaining. What I meant was that I would have to look both after all our things apart from looking after my kids. I'm not exactly sure at which issue I'm misinformed in? That train stations are crowded or that there are pickpokets around?

Maybe this anxiety partly boils down to inexperience on these situations. We've lived in Singapore for so long now where safety is generally never an issue (note that I'm not saying there are no crimes here) that anything outside of that gives me panic attacks. While I am pretty sure that even outside of train stations or even in airport terminals, I will be exposed to crowds and possible theft in Italy - my only issue here is that at least I'm not lugging around all our suitcases in those places as an added burden.