The ever-popular Chip and Pin Credit Card
 

I have received chip cards for two of our cards, but neither has given us a pin. Yesterday when I called to authorize the cards for travel in Europe, I neglected to ask about the pin. Here in the US, I'm finding that we're asked to sign for these transactions just as we signed for swipe card transactions. Will I have a problem in northern Europe using these cards? Thank you in advance to all.

No problem. The operator will insert the card in the reader and ask you for a signature on the slip. I can't vouch for pay at the pump gas stations or highway tolls, but otherwise you should have no difficulty.

We didn't have a problem using our chip card with tolls or gas stations in France and Italy. The first time we used it was in the subway in Paris and we didn't realize you have to leave it in the reader for a while rather than just swiping it. The subway guy didn't speak English, our French is limited, so he got a bit upset with us. Finally, it all worked out.

Timely question. There was a reporter on the Today Show this morning who indicated he had just visited Europe and had to input a PIN when using his chip card. I called our bank (Chase) and they indicated we would not need a PIN, just a signature.

This is answered in thread after thread. I'll keep it short here and you can click on my name and read some of my other replies.

The answer to your question, 99.9% of the time is a resounding NO, you don't need a pin. For better o worse, the US banks have decided to go with chip and signature cards. The vast majority of cards you get with a chip will require a signature. Some will fall back on pins on a very few occasions but that is changing. So don't worry and your cards will almost always be accepted everywhere you try to use them with a signature (or nothing). To see a fuller explanation, click on my name and read some of my longer responses.

There really is no one answer other than to take two cards. I had a chip card that did not work at a supermarket in Germany (manned cashier), so there's no guarantee that a card will work everywhere.

Not sure what "northern Europe" means, but you will need some kind of chip in Denmark, as swipe cards are not widely accepted there.

Also, depending on how off the beaten path you are, you may have to coach the cashier on what the proper steps are with handling a chip and sign card.

I think the answer to whether PIN less is ok or not depends on the amount of transaction and the type of merchant for unmanned transactions. I have used my CHIP and PIN card at a RATP vending machine, and it did not ask for anything, no signature no pin, before popping out carnet. It was just over 10€. I would not extrapolate this to imply there is no problem, no difficulty, being PIN less for all transactions for all amounts for all merchants.

The usefulness of the card will vary, but it will be more useful than a swipe card. Manned operations will ask for a signature. I am currently traveling in Europe (northern Germany, Scandinavia and the UK so far) and have been asked for identifying info on some occasions as well as a signature. While my card gives preference to signature, it will operate with a PIN in unmanned machines, and sometimes with no PIN. If your card has no PIN you will likely be unable to use it in unmanned machines - e.g. at the Vasa museum in Stockholm there was a separate line for people with chip and PIN cards, ticket machines in train stations wanted PINs.

Even if you got a PIN for it (which you often cannot do that quickly, some of my cards, it comes by mail, others I think I can change by phone), it probably wouldn't be the same as a chip and PIN card as it isn't that type. I have PINs for all my credit cards, whether they have chips or not, as that's the only way to use them in ATMs to get cash (which I've never had to do, it's just my emergency backup plan). But that's not the same thing.

Some Parisian RATP machines don't require chip and PIN cards, just any credit card. I don't have a chip and PIN card and I could buy things from them. It's the SNCF machines that I think require them.

I just viewed that TOday segment online, and the reporter did claim he had to use a PIN (I think he said he was in Europe). He didn't say what bank/company his card was from, though. I think there are a couple that are actually chip and PIN in the US, although rare. So given his poor reporting, you don't know what he was talking about or if it was even true (or maybe he used it in an ATM). The rest of the story confused the subject, also, by making it sound the cards were the same (chip and PIN vs chip and signature) and that it was just the US card readers that were different and didn't require the PIN. This isn't true, obviously, as when I use my CHIP and signature card in Europe, they can tell it needs a signature, not PIN.

Thanks for all the answers. I had read several other threads on the subject, including the most extensive which xyz references, but the most recent in depth discussion is almost a year old. I'm sure that many of us who didn't explicitly seek a chip and pin card have now received their first chip card and are concerned since they aren't certain of the detail of how this works. Our travels may be off the beaten path, but all travel will be in Netherlands, France, and Belgium. Since we leave in 2 days, we'll just have to work it out. We have some Euros with us in a pinch. The comment about cash being accepted reluctantly was a surprise to me.

Pure chip and pin available today to US citizens and others residing in the US sometimes, UNFCU and First Tech FCU. That's it. Many banks have cards which are signature preferred; if the terminal accepts signatures it will require a signature. Almost all manned and womanned pos terminals do so which is why if you have an American issued credit card you will almost always be asked to sign at a point of sale terminal. Unpersonneled kiosks are somewhat murkier. Many cards, such as Andrews FCU, Barclays Bank USA, USAA offer cards that if signature fails in an unpersonneled kiosk, it falls back on what is called offline pin which was the standard in Europe for years. However, many cards say all those issued by JP Morgan Chase, Capital One even though most today have chips, do not list off line pin as a possible card verification method (cvm). The networks claim to have issued new regulations prohibiting kiosks from summarily rejecting cards which have no provision for offline pin. The best example I can give are the machines operated by SNCF say if you arrive at CDG and wish to take the RER into Paris. For many years, they rejected cards which lacked pins whether magnetic strip or emv chip. That has changed and last June, I used a chip and signature card which requested nothing in one of their machines. Machines operated by RATP have continued throughout to even take magnetic strip cards. (RATP is the local Paris transit agency; SNCF is the French National railroad). Also be aware there are some countries, such as Germany and Holland which refuse to embrace 21st century technology and where cashT is king. One might have trouble in those countries using any credit cards outside touristy areas and at places like supermarkets.

That's how it stands today. So chip and signature cards should be for the most part fine in Europe.

<i>Also be aware there are some countries, such as Germany and Holland which refuse to embrace 21st century technology and where cashT is king.</i>

I'll agree when it comes to Germany, and disagree as concerns Holland where some cafés in Amsterdam do not accept any cash.

We just returned from Iceland, Norway and Sweden. I got a Barclay card which is a chip and pin card but at any manned place they made us sign. The only time we used the pin was to get gas, at the airport to buy bus and train passes and in museums at unmanned terminals. You should be fine unless traveling in remote areas where there are unmanned gas stations. Just carry some local currency if you are going through tolls or for parking meters ( we had that problem in southern France which is why I got the Barclay card). We actually went through three weeks of travel and never used any local currency. Everyone took plastic. Have a great trip.

Michael...I respectfully disagree about Holland. For example, although it is possible it has changed since the new cc regs have gone into effect, you could not use non pin cards anywhere on the Dutch National Railroad either at the machines or at the ticket windows except at one window at Centraal Station and not at all for local Amsterdam transport. Now it is possible it has changed recently but when last I was there, I did have difficulty using cards of any sort.

<i> you could not use non pin cards anywhere on the Dutch National Railroad either at the machines or at the ticket windows except at one window at Centraal Station and not at all for local Amsterdam transport.</i>

I used my ATM/debit card successfully to reload my local transportation card in Amsterdam's Centraal Station--it was not always easy, and I gave up at times, but the point is that for the Dutch, cards are replacing cash, which is not the case to the same degree in Germany (or Switzerland, for that matter). My non-pin credit card was accepted everywhere except at official train station ticket counters, and even then, a clerk once offered to slide it since her reader had the capability--I would have tried to use my ATM/debit card at a kiosk except that I did not know how to choose the various scheduling options and I hate to be the one holding up the line that would have invariably stood behind me.

I live in the Netherlands, and I live cash free. I never carry any cash, I pay for everything by card. Not credit card, but debit card. Credit cards are not widely accepted, but a debit card with PIN is accepted pretty much everywhere.

<i> I got a Barclay card which is a chip and pin card but at any manned place they made us sign.</i>

It will make things a lot easier to understand if everyone maintains the classic definition of chip & PIN vs. chip & signature. When using your card at a manned location (typically defined as the default transaction), if you must sign to complete the purchase; you have a chip & signature card.

Most all cards are issued with PINs. Even many of the old magnetic strip cards had PINs. Simply having a PIN associated with a card does not make it a chip & PIN card.

However, beyond the default transaction, different banks setup their verification methods differently (CVM). This understandably causes a lot of confusion among users. Bank criteria is why sometimes you are not asked for a PIN nor a signature (no CVM) and other times you may be required to enter a PIN at an unmanned locations such as pay at the pump stations.

Chip technology is redoubtably more secure than magnetic strip. Unfortunately, most US banks have opted for the less secure chip & signature standard.

Not to argue with the above and I have always felt things like this, as well as measurements and temperature scales should be uniform throughout the world and been criticized for that, in reality it is the chip in and of itself that provides the added security and, at least for now, is not being cloned to any degree unlike magnetic strips. The difference between chip and signature and chip and pin only comes into play if the actual physical card is lost or stolen. Signatures provide no security whatsoever. Do you think some 16 year old student is really going to get involved in challenging somebody if the signatures don't match. Of course, Americans do understand that more and more are signatures not checked (think of the last time you went to the supermarket and the clerk, after you swiped your card, asked to see the card to check the signature) but in more and more places in the USA they don't even bother with a signature for small amounts. Go to Walmart, for example, buy something for less than $50 and you are not asked to sign anything. I had a friend stay with me for a couple of weeks who lives in London, the first thing he wanted to do was go to Walmart to buy some blue jeans and first of all was amazed at how low the prices are (I find that hard to believe although I understand that here in America, goods for the most part are priced before taxes but not everything is taxable say like clothes in New Jersey as an example) while in Britain prices include VAT but no matter. He used his UK credit card at Walmart and lo and behold they asked for his pin. We then went to the supermarket, bought about $100 worth of groceries, he insisted on paying. Supermarket still not converted to emv so he swiped the card, gthe clerk rang it up and since it was under $50 so no signature no anything. He turned to me and asked what kind of security is that and I was truthful. I said there was none. That's simply the way it is here like it or not.

oops...at the supermarket it was $48 in groceries not $100 where he would have been asked for a signature but not checkecd. My fault.

<i>The difference between chip and signature and chip and pin only comes into play if the actual physical card is lost or stolen. </i>


While that is an overall fair assessment, another huge advantage to the way in which credit cards are processed in Europe vs. in the USA is that in Europe, the card never leaves the owner´s hands. There might be a rare exception, I just cannot think of one.

A store employee never really even sees the numbers on your card, he never even touches the card. Cards do not need to be stolen or lost in order to be duplicated or to be used fraudulently on line.

The European procedure of never handing over a card to be processed is another huge safety advantage and protection against fraud not found in the USA.

...I think you're not living in the USA right now. The fact is the last time I had a credit card leave my hand is...I don't know when. Even in those majority of merchants here that have not turned on their emv terminals to take chipped cards, for the most part you swipe, sometimes a receipt is printed to sign, sometimes you sign on the signature pad in front of you, much of the time for small purchases you do nothing. The big exception is restaurants which has raised several interesting questions. In America, and I am sure in other places, once you are in a restaurant which is not really a fast food restaurant say like Red Lobster or Denny's, when the check arrives in a wallet type thing, the expectation is your card will be taken to some dark room in the back, run through the terminal (either swiped if magnetic strip or dipped if the restaurant, and few have, has activated chip processing and then 2 receipts are printed, one for you to sign and the other for your copy. But then the question comes up about tips. In the USA at present with the magnetic strip still being king, you can add a tip and then you sign and when the waiter gets back to wherever, the tip is added on. The question is can this be done with chip cards...if the card is chip and signature perhaps although that still has to be worked out. With chip and pin cards, well the whole thing becomes messy so much so that there is some question that even if the USA were to adopt chip and pin, restaurants would be forced most likely to use pin bypass because once the pin is entered, well the game is over or at least the transaction is. We know the solution is the portable wireless terminals in use through much of Europe; of course in many European countries there is no tipping, service is included. In Britain, at many restaurants, one does tip (10-12% is the norm I think) and agt least at one restaurant chain, Wagamama but I am sure others, after the card is either swiped or dipped, the waiter hands you the terminal and tells you to follow the directions (do you want to tip, press the green button...how much is the tip enter the amount...is the new amount correct...and then you either are told eto enter your pin if it is a pin preferred card (rare of course in the USA) or hand the terminal back to the waiter). The waiter presses a button and either hands you a receipt to sign (never in my experience asking to see the signature) or hands you a receipt if it is a pin transaction.

But of course that means even more expenses to restaurants and I suspect they will resist. As far as your point is concerned, the trick is if the clerk wants to check signatures which is indeed pretty common in Europe, you hold the card and show the clerk the back. I have never had a clerk rip the card out of my hand or anything like that. The bigger problem with chip and signature is sometimes you are asked for ID and that is a touchy subject to me. In the USA, merchant agreements allow merchants to ask for ID but prohibit a merchant from refusing to complete a transaction for failure to produce ID unless the card has not been signed or the signatures do not match. I do not like to show ID and think it is foolish when some people think they are smarter than others by writing see ID on the signature panel. Technically that invalidates the card as the agreements specify the card must be signed and as we've said, nobody in the USA checks signatures anyway. My objection to showing ID is that although chances of this happening are slight, this is a way a crooked clerk or waiter can get some personal information about you, turn it over to some identity theft ring and then you have a real problem, much more serious than having your credit card account hacked. Unfortunately, I do not know if this agreement carries to parts outside the USA and even some dumb states in the USA prohibit the card networks from enforcing the you don't have to show id regs. Usually doesn't happen when using a pin which is one of the reasons I prefer pin preferred cards.

<i>...I think you're not living in the USA right now. The fact is the last time I had a credit card leave my hand is.</i>


I am visiting the USA today and the last time someone took my card to process it was yesterday. This happens with great regularity in restaurants, hardly ever in stores.

Still, I agree with your concerns about a clerk or sales person handling a card, even to verify a signature. This is a good way to have your personal information, and card number, compromised.

I agree completely with you about restaurants as I explained but other than that, it is rare my card leaves my hand to check signatures. BTW how many times hass anybody checked your signature?

<i>The European procedure of never handing over a card to be processed is another huge safety advantage and protection against fraud not found in the USA.</i>

I suspect that this type of fraud is minimal compared to hacking and stealing on-line information from sites that are completely out of the customer's control. Is the chip and PIN card really better in that respect?

<i> Is the chip and PIN card really better in that respect?</i>


If a clerk or sales person never sees nor handles your card, it makes copying your name, card number, expiration date, and the 3 digit security code, impossible.

There is a definite security risk when your card is taken from you, at at restaurant for example, for processing.

<i>There is a definite security risk when your card is taken from you, at at restaurant for example, for processing.</i>

The risk is minimal, in my opinion. In the last year, I've had to change my credit card twice, each time because of on-line hacking and fraud.

The solution to the problem you give is to have hand held readers that can be taken to the table. Those in Europe can take the swipe card; although I admit into running into a single instance where the swipe option was not available.

The risk is small, quite true but it does happen. Agreed the solution are the wireless portable terminals almost universally found in Europe but...

as with everything else associated with this in America the big issue is MONEY. Who is going to pay for all these portable terminals? Same reason USA resisted emv for all this time up till now. Do bear in mind, the merchant is not liable nor is the customer. The banks? They make millions and millions on their plastic card operations and the fraud is only a small cost of doing business.

<i>
as with everything else associated with this in America the big issue is MONEY. </i>

From what I heard or read (can't remember which) that is the reason we are moving to chip and signature cards. Banks charge merchants a much lower rate on ATM/Debit cards, and if the credit cards were Chip & Pin, they would then work like ATM/Debit cards with the same <b>lower</b> charges levied on the merchants.

Those wireless credit card machines are standard in Puerto Rico, for what that is worth. I have no idea why that part of the US has the machines, but maybe other places have them, too.

<i>Do bear in mind, the merchant is not liable </i>

Have you ever actually contracted with a card processing service as a merchant? I can assure you that banks will indeed charge back to the merchant any fraud that they can. In the past, I have lost a lot of money on credit card charge backs that were determined to be fraudulent by the card issuing bank.

Chip & PIN transactions would have eliminated much of the loss. Cards are easy to duplicate and chipped cards can be duplicated though it would require a very sophisticated thief.

There are a lot of ways to exploit credit cards and it happens a lot more often than some here would like to believe.

Banks, knowing how may credit cards many US customers carry in their wallets, don´t want us to use PINs because they fear that will lead to their cards being unused. It´s a lot easier to remember one or two PINs than 5 or 6 which is the number of credit cards that most Americans carry.

sarastro...not trying to be argumentive with your last post but the whole broo ha ha here is that as of 01 October, there will be a liability shift to the merchant if they don't do an emv transaction with an emv card. I interpret that to mean that currently they have very limited liability for fraudulent charges. I'm not questioning you or anything like that but there seems to be a contradiction here somewhat.

xyz123, I can´t really say what will happen 1 Oct because I frankly don´t follow this subject closely anymore. I now live in Paris and my orientation is a bit different. The bulk of my asset is in the USA so I am, just like many other posters, concerned about exchange rates, credit card acceptance and FTFs, and finding great dinning locations.

<i>Chip & PIN transactions would have eliminated much of the loss. </i>

Could you please explain how this would have eliminated on-line fraud?

It won't eliminate online fraud. As a matter of fact, some in the industry believe that credit card fraud will shift more to online fraud than card is present fault. Much of today's card is present fault is due to the ease of counterfeiting magnetic strips. Once the magnetic strips go away, then the attention of the credit card hackers and the like will turn to counterfeiting the emv chips and to online fraud. The whole spat over whether to go chip and signature or chip and pin is really quite futile; as I've said I would have preferred pin preferred cards but recognize that while there is somewhat more security with pins than the non existence of any security with signatures, just the emv chip alone will eliminate most of the card is present fraud. At that point, the banks will turn their attention to online fraud. Can retina scans be far behind?

Sarastro...me too as far as my desires when I visit Paris. Just to understand because it is important. Several years ago, the credit card network set a deadline of 01 October 2015 for what is called a liability shift. After that, according to the regulations that have been issued, if a merchant accepts a credit card containing an emv chip and processes it via the magnetic strip or even by just entering the account number, it will be the merchant that is liable for any fraud. The interesting this is we are now only a month out, and the vast majority of merchants here even though they may have replaced their terminals with terminals capable of processing emv chip transaction, very very few have turned them on. Then there are those who haven't replaced their terminals yet. We have a long way to go.

<i>Could you please explain how this would have eliminated on-line fraud?</i>

The losses I incurred as a merchant were not on-line transactions and everyone of them, as far as we were able to determine, could have been avoided with chip & PIN credit cards. I have made no claim, in any post, that chip & PIN credit cards would eliminated on-line fraud.

Many European merchants require SMS verification of any on line purchase attempt.

xyz123 - I agree that the US does have a long way to go with credit card security and chip & PIN implementation. Once a merchant understands the new rules and incurs loss due to his not having EMV equipment, the cost of that equipment will probably seem very reasonable.

Obviously, the percentage of online fraud will increase as physical fraud in shops or automatic machines becomes more difficult. It is a zero sum situation.

However, the vast majority of my online transactions in Europe are now governed by an SMS code that I receive on my mobile phone within 10 seconds of engaging in a purchase. If I do not enter the code within two minutes, the transaction is cancelled. Anybody wanting to commit a fraud with my card also has to be in possession of my mobile phone.

Great idea and if I were in charge, would do it in a nanosecond. But...if you've been reading on various blogs and the like, the US banks make a mint on their plastic card operations and look on fraud as a small price of doing business. So anything that would make it even marginally more difficult to use the cards will not go over well. It is a no win situation for the customers and the merchants.

<i>the vast majority of my online transactions in Europe are now governed by an SMS code that I receive on my mobile phone within 10 seconds of engaging in a purchase.</i>

And what if you do not have a cell phone?

People like that no longer count. I hope that you know that capitalism is the opposite of equality.