Switzerland - what a country!
 

Thanks to the Swiss Fodors experts for their very helpful advice before our trip to Switzerland. We loved Switzerland - it is so beautiful. We stayed at the Hostellerie de Geneve in Vevey on the north central shore of Lake Geneva. This was a two-star hotel-very clean but small room and bathroom on the 4th floor overlooking the Place de Marche, a large parking lot market area right on the lake. Because of an unseasonably warm week the room was too warm with the window closed and noisy with the window open. A fan for the last half of the week helped. We purchased a Lake Geneva Regional Pass at the train station in Geneva which worked well. It was three days of free travel and four days of half-price travel on the trains, boats, funiculars and cog railways in the Lake Geneva area. We took the train to Gruyeres and Broc (chocolate factory), Gstaad, Chembrex (vineyards), Montreux and Lausanne. We enjoyed the lake trips on steamers or paddleboats to Chateau de Chillon, St. Gingolph, Lausanne and Montreux. The finiculars took us to Glion and Mt. Peladin (where we had a fabulous dinner at La Mirador)and we took the cog railway to Las Pleisades. We spent our free time along the Fleur de Promenade - great people watching, wonderful views and beautiful flowers. The food everywhere was good, but more expensive than we expected. The Vevey area and other areas we visited were not at all crowded, no bus loads of people and the tourists in the area seems to be mostly European. We're already talking about where to go and what to see on our next trip to Switzerland!

Hi Bevk and welcome home! Glad you enjoyed your trip and am especially happy to see that you are now hooked on Switzerland and will join the rest of us who return again and again. See you at the Support Group thread? and I for one would like to hear your impressions of St. Gingolph -- I've always loved the name. J.

Thanks for the great report!

How expensive is Switzerland these days in relation to their neighbors? It has been 20+ years since my last visit, and I remember it
being so expensive for a student's budget that we didn't spend as much time as we would have liked to.

Thanks!

Hi Klondike. I know you'll hear from Bevk, but may I add that I was one of those visiting Switzerland years and years ago, finding it a tight squeeze on my teacher's budget even then.

I cannot seem to stop returning however. I've had to compromise by making my trips shorter. In the 70's we used to show up at the local tourist office and they'd find us a room in a private home. I think it's still possible to do that, but I confess that these days I like to have reservations. I stay in 2-star hotels in the smallest towns I can find with train connections -- so I can use a pass. I stay in one place as many days as practical, because the longer you stay, the less expensive the room. (I see special packages on the net, so someone who is flexible can take advantage of those.) Whenever possible I get half-board, so breakfast and supper are locked in. Then, I usually skip lunch and eat icecream or something from the train station. Other than that, I just don't buy much. I spend all my time memorizing that beautiful country. By the way, if you travel by car, you might check out bnb.ch , which is the bed and breakfast association. You must return to Switzerland! J.

Hello Klondike, We've been to France, Italy and England/Scotland in the last 4 years and I found Switzerland considerably more expensive than they were, although at least part of that is due to the poor exchange rate now. Our two-star hotel in Vevey was about $130/day. Thank heavens that included breakfast. As I said it was clean but certainly not luxurious. Compared to the UK there are very few b&b and since we were not renting a car that was not an option for us. Meals were at least 20 swiss francs (or $15)per person, plus drinks, which were never less than $3, even for coffee or soda, although the wine is not much more than that! Our most expensive meal, at La Mirador Hotel high above Vevey, was around 70 CF each for three courses and wine. The view alone was worth that much. We happened to get a very inexpensive plane fare to Switzerland so it was still a reasonbly priced trip. I've already checked into home exchanges or rentals for our next trip.

Renting a vacation apartment (Ferienwohnung) has always been my best bet for economy. Most require a minimum 5 to 7 day rental, so I often mix it with a Pension/Gasthof (B&B) for another 3-4 days in a different canton of Sw. Add in a Swiss flexipass for train travel and you have it made! Almost every swiss town or district can be found on the net at www."whateverswisstown.ch". Look under Unterkunft for lodging, then Ferienwohnungen, for apartments, usually the second or third floor within a private home/separate entrance. For example wengen.ch or thunersee.ch or meiringen-hasliberg.ch...You enjoy the benefit of 1-2 bedrooms, your own kitchen for eat-in meals, a livingroom-diningroom combo and your own bathroom. Often a balcony or terrace sitting area is available.
Check out www.holiday-home.com
and vacationvillas.net for aditional listings all over the world.
Just got back from 11 days in Brienz using a Ferienwohnung, previously the same in Kandersteg. I'll never go back to hotels!

Bev, do you remember how much you paid for the Regional Pass? We're thinking of doing that in the Berner Oberland area. Joyce

Hagen, we paid 129 CHF (about $96)for a 1st class pass. The 2nd class pass was 99CHF. On our free days we did several boat trips, funiculars, longer trips, and on the half price days stayed closer to Vevey. One of the suggestions from the Fodors board was to print out the page from the Internet that described the pass and show it when we bought the pass. This was invaluable because the clerk did not understand which pass we were talking about until I showed him the page I had printed out.

When you have finished with your oooohing and aaaaahing about Switzerland, I remind you that this is the nation that held Hitler's coat while he raped most of the rest of Europe. And charged him interest for that privilege.

Switzerland's railways were used to carry boxcars filled with Jews on their way to the death camps. It was a short cut up from Italy, saved Germany a few pfennigs per passenger.

Switzerland held Nazi gold for decades before even the sketchiest of accounting was permitted by their oh-so-secret banks.

Switzerland held the insurance proceeds of murdered Jews until pressure was brought more than 50 years after the fact to pay off their beneficiaries.

Yodel, yodel, yodel. Such lovely scenery. There is a dark side to Switzerland.

USNR, you sound like a very sad, pathetic person.

While I think that Switzerland is a very beautiful country, I am not a fan of its people. I have been to Switzerland twice and I find its citizens to be rather aloof and chilly. Maybe it is just their ethos. It is sad that people who live in such a beautiful place are so miserable.

ThinGorjus, I have been to Lucerne at least a half dozen times as well as other parts of Switzerland. I find the opposite to be true. Most of the people were very helpful and polite. Europeans in general are usually more reserved and formal than Americans. When we lived in Austria, you were never suppose to use "familiar" German unless you were addressing children or had been given permission by the person. That's the way it's always been.

We found the Swiss people to be friendly and helpful. I think their attitude may be a reflection of your own attitude or expectations.

I'm sure all countries have a "dark side." If that was a concern I'd never leave my house!

bettyk - what was sad and pathetic? I think as we travel it's good to keep in mind the atrocities that countries commit on their path to prosperity, and Switzerland is no exception. Thank you for the sobering and truthful post, USNR.

As BevK said, all countries have a "dark side". Switzerland was not the only country involved in WWII. Would you not travel to Germany, Austria or Italy because of what some of their people did to the Jews over 50 years ago? No one is saying that we should forget what happened during the Holocaust, but it seems a little sad and pathetic to act like it just happened yesterday.

I would like to lend my support to USNR, I understand where he is coming from with his comments. Let us NEVER forget what happened during WWII, and what has 'how long ago' got to do with it?! Even if WWII had happened centuries ago, it doesnt make what happened less atrocious. Maybe being English, this has been 'drummed' into us (not to forget what with all that happened on English soil, too). Even though it was during my Grandparents time (grandad was in the Navy during the war), I still hold respect and sympathy. There! I've said me bit :)

Excuse me please, but can someone tell me which countries have never at any point in their history committed an atrocity against someone? Shall we never travel there again, or enjoy our time there?

Yikes! I'd better get out of the USA quick! Look what we did to those poor old American Indians!

Bev, so glad you enjoyed your trip. Hope you'll join us now on the SGFTWLS thread!

It is unfortunate that some posters will use this site for their slanderous propaganda.

Switzerland during WWII although entirely surrounded by Axis forces, refused to join the Third Reich's 'New Europe.' Despite a German food blockade which reduced the Swiss to growing potatoes on their lawns and public squares, and several planned German invasions, the Swiss never capitulated. Every Swiss man had a rifle and ammunition, and the instructions to use it against any invader, and fight to the death. Virtually every German-speaking population in any country of Europe sided with Hitler--except the Swiss. Indeed, the Swiss German-speaking press was so anti-Nazi that Goebbels labelled the Swiss, contemptuously, 'Berg-Semiten,' or 'Mountain-Jews.' While the Swiss kept up their tradition of political neutrality, they were never morally neutral. They clearly sympathized with the Allies, even smuggling the RAF bomber guidance devices through German territory disguised as Swiss watches. They also harbored far more refugees per capita than the U.S.A. During the war, The NY Times called Switzerland "an island of democracy in a sea of tyranny." Winston Churchill recalled, "of all the neutrals Switzerland has the greatest right distinction... She has been a Democratic State, standing for freedom in self-defense among her mountains, and in thought, in spite of race, largely on our side."

We love to visit Switzerland and feel very comfortable about its past.

While I disagree with your post lostinland, I don't feel at all obligated to continue marring this thread with a political discussion. Differences of opinion are not well-respected on this site, whether it be politics, dress code, or travel itself.

Thank you, BettyK. It has been donkey years since I have had such a good laugh! While I live in Philadelphia, I was born in London. Therefore, I am European. You don't have to give me a history lesson on our attitude/customs. I have also travelled all over the world, from Switzerland to Sri Lanka to Argentina to Nepal. I must say that the Swiss are probably the most aloof people I have ever encountered. I never said they were rude or impolite. I said CHILLY. The Swiss remind me of Mrs. Danvers (played by the great ENGLISH actress, Dame Judith Andersen.) in Sir Alfred Hitchcock's REBECCA. Mannerly, yes. But, hardly the cozy type. This is just my observation.

All nations contain racist people, not just Switzerland.

ThinGorjus, my point was that many Americans judge Europeans based on our customs and ways of thinking. Then they seem upset or disappointed when they find out things are not the same.

While I have only lived in England and Austria, I never thought of the Swiss as "aloof". Obviously, each of us came away with a differnt impression.

Thankfully not everyone plans their holiday based on history. With the massacre of the American Indians, the theft of their land and slavery who could justify visiting the USA? I would agree that we should not visit countries that have present policies contrary to our beliefs. For instance I did not visit South Africa during the Apartheid. Nor would I visit Israel today because of the occupation of Palestine.

In any case even for those that base their holidays on history, Switzerland should be at the top of their choice. This country has never invaded another country, it has never committed any atrocities nor practiced racial discrimination. What other country can claim such clean record?

ustraveller I agree with you. Switzerland is a wonderful country that can be proud of its past. I just can't wait for our next visit in September!

Switzerland may not have committed any direct atrocities, but its hands are hardly clean. How many high level Nazis kept Swiss bank accounts to protect their ill gotten gains? Even today, banks in Switzerland, Lugano particularly, are known for holding and hiding the money of lots of bad guys, including Russian mafia and even those closely connected to Rumsfeld's former photo op buddy, Saddam Hussein. And they know the money is dirty.
However, I don't think this is a reason not to visit Switzerland. There isn't a single country who hasn't done--or helped some other country do--something terrible. And most people in Switzerland are honest, decent, and caring, as are most people in most places.

ustraveller, I live in Switzerland and admire most of how society works here and think most people are wonderful. But to say there has been no racial disrimination shows you are misinformed. There is a great deal of what I think is discrimination against immigrants. Did you know that children of immigrants who came in the 60's, young adults now who were born and completely raised and educated in Switzerland are not allowed citizenship (citizenship is done at the very local level, seemingly little national control, and there is blatant discrimination)? Did you know that the money laundering that does occur helps steal money from poor nations and puts it directly into the pockets of dictators? I like living here but my eyes are open to the ugliness too, just as I despise a lot of what my country does around the world as well.

Chris I am not sure you understand what racial discrimination means. Immigrants that came in the 60s were mainly from Italy and other Southern European States. I don't see any racial difference between these immigrants and Swiss citizens. To become naturalized, you need to have resided in Switzerland for at least twelve years, three of which occurred within the five years prior to the request. Time spent in Switzerland between the ages of 10 and 20 years counts double.

There are two phases:

Phase one: federal authorization and the following conditions must be met:
You are integrated in the Swiss community.
You are accustomed to Swiss way of life and practices.
You comply with the Swiss legal system.
You in no way compromise the internal or external security of Switzerland.

Phase two: canton and municipal decisions (this is because Switzerland is a federal state). Conditions vary greatly from one region to the next. Most municipalities apply rather open policies. Yes there are few municipalities (usually with a small population and way up in the Swiss Alps) that have a more restrictive approach, but this is their constitutional right.

I know several Swiss of Iranian origins that have been naturalized without any problem and they were not born in Switzerland.

Also Switzerland is a major financial center and in every major financial center there is unfortunately money laundering going on. You are likely to find that there are more murders in major cities than in small villages. The same is true for money laundering and financial centers. The bigger the financial center the more cases of money laundering there will be. Just look at London or New York.

You need to open you eyes to see the global picture my friend!

Since some travelers seem to be interested in Switzerland's history during WWII, let me recommend the following link for an unbiased account:

http://i2i.org/Publications/IP/Other...witzerland.htm

Are the Swiss different in attitude in the various regions - French, German, or Italian speaking parts of the country?

I ask because I have had only favorable experiences with friendly and helpful local people in the French-speaking region along the lake outside Geneva.

Thank you for that link, lostisland. I do not question Switzerland's heroism and galor during WWII. I noted that article was written in 1998 - it was around that time that discoveries were made concerning Switzerland's role in collaborating with the Nazis, and their unwillingness to provide reparations to Jews who had swiss bank accounts which were liquidated after the war - proceeds which benefitted the country. After much international lobbying, Jews were finally given a chance to get some of their money back, my family included.

Doubless USNR's history teacher didn't say what his own country did while London burned.

Zippo: The United States gave Britain all support short of war during 1940-1941. This included escorting British and neutral ships halfway to U.K. ports, the turning over of 50 U. S. destroyers in exchange for leases on bases and other properties in the Western Hemisphere, production of arms, ammunitions, and foodstuffs for Britain, the housing of thousands of refugee British children in America, the training of RAF aircrews, the repair and refit of British warships in American shipyards, etc., etc., etc. Don't talk to me about history, Zippo, because I was there and helped make it.

And I thought I was just posting a trip report.....

Dear usbeauty, I will not respond personally to the claim that Swiss Banks <liquidated> Jewish accounts after the war. And as you mentioned more recent investigations have shed the light once and for all on this issue. For the final conclusion please see the quote below as well as the corresponding links.

After a four year independent investigation into claims that Swiss banks misappropriated Holocaust's victims funds, The Times, 13th October 2001 edition summarized the findings under the title <Swiss Holocaust cash revealed to be myth>:

<most dormant Swiss bank accounts thought to have belonged to Holocaust survivors were opened by wealthy, non-Jewish people who then forgot about their money. The announcement marks the end of a four-year independent investigation into the archives and vaults of the world's most secretive banking system.
It will come as a disappointment to many Jewish families, who were sure that their dead relatives left behind fortunes in Switzerland. A 17-member tribunal based in Zurich was set up in 1997 to investigate the identities of 5,500 foreign accounts and 10,000 Swiss accounts that have lain dormant since the end of the Second World War.
The tribunal said that it had processed about 10,000 claims in response to the list of dormant account names published by the Swiss Bankers' Association five years ago. Only 200 accounts - containing £6.9 million - could be traced to Holocaust victims.>

<Switzerland came under heavy criticism in 1997-98 for its reluctance to consider wartime claims. The United States threatened it with sanctions and relatives of Holocaust victims launched class action lawsuits in the US.
The Swiss banks agreed to a settlement of $1.5 billion (£1.03 billion) on the understanding that they would be spared further Holocaust claims. The banks say they will pay the costs of tracking down the dormant accounts from their own coffers.>

http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/01/10/SwissBanks.html

A more in depth analasys of the whole crisis can be found at:

http://shamir.mediamonitors.net/october172001.html

"The funiculars took us to Glion and Mt. Peladin (where we had a fabulous dinner at La Mirador)"

Back to your trip report. I will be in Switzerland in September, could you expand upon the places you mentioned above? I will be in Montreux for a couple of days and then will travel to Grindelwald for three. Also thinking about stopping by Gruyere. Thanks.

USNR if you were there, do you remember this?

http://www.holocaust-history.org/que...st-louis.shtml

http://www.iearn.org/hgp/aeti/aeti-1997/st-louis.html

hi Bev, Thanks for posting your trip report. I've been to the Montreux, Vevey, Lausanne area 4 times so was interested in your experiences. I have always stayed with a good friend who lives there, so to hear about your hotel, etc. was good and useful information.

p.s. Was it the title "what a country" that attracted all the posters who want to discuss history of the region?

Or we could just leave these good folks to argue amoung themselves and meet, let's say, at another thread -- maitaitom, what was the lead line of your original one with questions? or there's always the support group thread, though that's probably asking for trouble. affectionately, J.

among, among, among

Maitaitom, the funicular to Mt. Peladin is from Vevey at the bus station. The fare is around 7 swiss francs, I believe. La Mirador is within walking distance of the funciular stop at Mt. Peladin (to the west). There's also a restaurant at the funicular station where we stopped for a beer. From the funicular station you can walk or take a bus to the top of Mt. Peladin. We ate on the terrace at La Mirador and the views of Lake Geneva, Vevey and the French Alps are wonderful. The food and service were also very good.

I believe the funicular to Glion was from Territet, just east of Montreux. It's very near the train station at Territet, just look for the signs. At the top of the funicular we walked to the Hotel Victoria (up the street and to the east) and had lemonade on the terrace - again with beautiful views of the town and lake. From there you can take the train up higher, but I can't remember the name of the area it goes to. We got there too late in the day to continue past Glion and still catch a train back down. The funicular comes right into the train station at Glion.

We also went to Gruyeres and toured the cheese factory that is right at the train station. Now I wish that we had walked or taken the bus into the town of Gruyeres also. I think there is a castle there to tour. Instead we continued to Broc to the chocolate factory that was not open on Saturday!