Switzerland need help with planning
 

After spending a few days in the Italian Lakes area in September, not sure where to stay yet .We had planned then to travel by train to Tirano, to pick up the Bernina Express and travel on to Chur in Switzerland. We are unsure what is the best travel options after arriving in Chur. Should we travel on to Zurich late that afternoon and stay the night. Our next destination the Bernese Oberland area maybe staying in Wengen, for about 4 nights.
We then want to travel into Germany and pick up a car, visiting the Black Forest area, crossing the border into Alsace and eventually dropping the car off in the Mosel area. Picking the car up in Germany I think will be cheaper than in Switzerland, hoping to avoid drop off fees.
Trying to piece the Switzerland travel together and would value some suggestions.

Oh I ment Berner Oberland, typo error. Sorry

Trying to piece the Switzerland travel together and would value some suggestions>

Well for the train part you are traveling enough to consider some kind of Swiss Pass that would cover the Bernina Express and all other trains you mention - valid in full in the Berner Oberland up to Wengen.

For lots of great info on Swiss trains and passes and other options like the Half-fare Card I always spotlight these IMO fantastic sites - www.swisstravelsystem.com; www.budgeteuropetravel.com; www.ricksteves.com. Passes are valid not only on trains but also lake boats (a ride on either lake bookending Interlaken to me is as great as anything else in the Berner Oberland!) and postal buses and city buses and trams and also gives free entry to 400+ Swiss museums.

Thanks for your suggestions PalenQ.
Should I add any nights to Interlaken? The boat trips, which lake would you suggest. Where to pick up the boat from.

I have had a quick look at the Swiss rail site, great site thanks for the suggestion. I will go back and investigate further.

My only concern with doing the Bernina Express is that we will be going a long way out of the way to get to our prioity destination of the the Berner Oberland region.
What do you think?

4 nights seems about right for most folks in the Berner Oberland and Interlaken is a great base from which to do day trips on days when not so unusiual funky weather can set in at any time of year in the Alps - easy day trips to say Lucerne, Bern or even a lake boat trip - weather down in Interlaken IME of visiting there many many times can often be nice even if the mountains are clouded in with rain.

I'll try to answer your other questions when I have more time and keep topping your thread - just putting 'ttt' in the reply box means topping your thread so that it reappears from the Fodor Black Hole so others who may want to comment will see it - a common practice for Fodors postings.

I was looking at staying in Wengen. What are your thoughts on this area. Would really like to stay in the beautiful hills. We like to walk.
Originally thought about Lauterbrunnen for better connections but Wengen does look nice.

Hi aussie_10,

Just wanted to comment on Wengen. On our 1 trip to Switzerland, our 4 nights in Wengen were by far the highlight of our trip, which included Zermatt (Matterhorn), Luzern, St. Moritz and Appenzell. The only trouble we had with staying in Wengen was we had to leave. Best memory... early evening we walked a while from Wengen to some benches overlooking the valley below and we had a circle of snow capped peaks surrounding us. Perfectly silent except for a few distant cowbells as we watched the sun set. It's magical.

Hi pja1

Thanks for your comment and recommendation for Wengen. I travelled to Switzerland on a camping tour many years ago when I was 19 staying in Lauterbrunnen. I have always wanted to go back and spend more time and soak up the atmosphere.

Can't wait

Wengen is very different from Lauterbrunnen - for one thing it is in the hills - Lauterbrunnen in a deep valley - Wengen is churchmouse quiet at night - Lauterbrunnen hops because there are lots of younger 20s types there - in part because of the Contiki camp you may have stayed in years ago.

Grindelwald is my favorite base actually up in the hills - to me has the best views as it sits in the middle of a large amphitheater with verdant meadows rising up on all sides to greet glacier-girdled peaks and cliffs thousands feet high.

Grindelwald too attracts an all-ages crowd and is often lively at night.

So Wengen for quiet but if into night life at all check out the other two - or even Interlaken for the matter - Interlaken is my favorite base for the whole area and is a town much maligned by folks who only see its tacky main drag - yet the Unterseen or Matten sections are incredibly quaint and have neat guest houses and hotels with awesome views of the Jungfrau Massif from their balconies.

To answer your question about the BO lakes, Interlaken is between Lake Thun and Lake Brienz. The boats leave from the train stations or across the street from the train stations. Interlaken West station for Lake Thun, Interlaken Ost for Lake Brienz. (The trains up into the mountains, to Lauterbrunnen and Wengen, etc, leave from Interlaken Ost.)

Near Brienz town is the Swiss Open air museum, with examples of houses from the different cantons and demonstrations of trades like cheese-making. The bus to the park/museum meets the boat in Brienz town.

If you have to pick just one, Lake Thun is more inhabited. We espcially liked the cute town of Spiez. Lake Brienz is wilder and easier to get to from Wengen.

Yes PalenQ I probably stayed at the Contiki camp!

Hmmm Grindelwald as a base. I must admit I thought it would be too far to get around? Although it does look beautiful, I have been googling it since your suggestion. I have not decided on our base, but know I would prefer up around the hills area rather than Interlaken. Wengen seems to crop a lot in threads. Thats why I looked at it initially.

But I am more than open to lots more suggestions as to where to stay.

Mimar thank you for your suggestions for the lakes. Great information I will investigate further. Have you been to the Swiss Open Air Museum? Sounds interesting.

Just to add a correction to PalQ's note about Interlaken --

Interlaken is also maligned by those who have seen more than its tacky main drag -- folks such as myself. I've spent more than one afternoon getting lost in its backstreets and small squares and crossing back and forth on the bridges along the river, and I still would never stay there. It's simply too far from the mountains, it's too crowded (particularly in summertime), and it has no charm imo.

s

Yes, we went to the Ballenberg Open Air/FreiLicht museum and found it quite interesting, a mini Switzerland. Depends on whether you like that kind of stuff. Here's a link: www.ballenberg.ch

and it has no charm imo.>

no charm - none - are you sure you really got off the main drag - if you did you could not say that! Have you been to Unterseen - have you looked as tower's pictures of Interlaken and Unterseen - have you been to Matten - if so how can you not call those sections charming?

I'm not sure what you would call charming then!

But each to their own in terms of what they call charming!

tower on Feb 4, 13
these are just some selected pics to give you some ideas. I try to make up with editing what I don't have as a photographer! Stu

https://picasaweb.google.com/stuartt...rOberland2009#

swandav2000 - look at the pictures and tell me how can you say Interlaken has NO charm?

PalQ

I looked at the pictures (pretty much as I remember it).

Relative to Knoxville or Tampa, Interlaken has charm.

Relative to Wengen or Mürren, Interlaken has no charm.

s

Hi,

I have to agree with swandav2000... Comparing Interlaken to Wengen is apples and oranges. My opinion, I'd go with Wengen (or "in" the mountains)every time. I couldn't imagine having the opportunity to be so close to "Heaven" and settling in a city.

Thank you for your replies.
I have done lots more reading and researching and have decided that we will stay "in the mountains". Still tossing up between Wengen, Murren or even Lauterbrunnen. But do like the idea of looking down into the valley rather than looking up.

Still thinking of overnighting (or 2) in Lucerne after our Bernina Express trip,before travelling on to "the Mountains". It seems like a better option than Zurich.

If staying in Lucerne you can then take the Brunig Pass scenic rail route over the Brunig Pass to Interlaken-Ost (East) - jumpiong off point for trains to Grindelwald or Lauterbrunnen-Wengen and the cable car/gtrain combo from Lauterbrunnen to Murren (Murren is more isolated time-wise by public transit than Wengen or Lauterbrunnen - Swiss Passes cover 100% of the route to Murren in spite of it involving an aerial cableway - normally only covered 50% but in this case since the cable way is an essential part of getting to a real town (not just a mountain top) it is covered 100% - one of the few such thrilling aerial cable ways to ber 100% covered - another is the one from Gimmelwald down to Stechelberg in the Lauterbrunnen Valley.

IME Grindelwald and Lauterbrunnen are for younger folks - hikers, skiiers, etc who want a little apres-ski or apres-hiking and Wengen or Murren are for older folks who desire quiet and tranquility over night life.

If basing in Wengen or Murren the Swiss Pass becomes more valuable if doing day trips since it covers passage there in full.

In any case you cannot go wrong with your choice.

Thanks PalenQ, for your excellent advice.
I am leaning towards Wengen, I value your first hand knowledge. Any recommendations for accommodation in Wengen?

We will definitely get the Swiss Pass, 1st or 2nd class? And I will also look into the Brunig Pass route, as well.

aussie 10 - In Switzerland many folks find 2nd class just hunky dory but there is always a difference - first class will have many more empty seats and as very few Swiss trains even take seat reservations this can be a factor - many trains are chockful in 2nd class certain times near large cities as they act as commuter trains that have rush hours.

Some specialty trains only have observation domed panoramic cars in first class and on lake boats only first class passengers can ride on the upper deck open-air seating parts.

Some trains are only first class - well not many but the Chocolate Train is - going from Lausanne to Gruyeres and Broc to visit the Nestle Chocolate factory there.

Most Swiss train rides are fairly short and in mountainous areas trains may be all one class or have very very little first class seating.

So there is always a significant difference between classes but in Switzerland is not as great as in most other countries, where also travel times tend to be longer.

If you can afford it go first class. Right now there is a sale on first class passes where you can get an extra day free but travel has to be in March and April I believe.

Well PalenQ now you are tempting the taste buds!

Chocolate train! I have googled it and now have to see how to work it into the itinerary. Husband is a chocoholic and I love cheese.
After much deliberation had thought that after the Bernina express to stay in Zurich and then catch a train to Thun to pick up a boat to Interlaken and then move on to Wengen from there. But now I am madly trying to see the best way to get to Montreux.

Is it worth the detour, it does sound like a great day trip and good value with the Swiss pass. Sadly the sale will not fit our plans. We will be in Switzerland in September.

Ahh now to get on to the train timetable sites and more researching. But I am loving the ideas and suggestions.
Thank you

But now I am madly trying to see the best way to get to Montreux>

Well the quickest route from Zurich would go via Bern and Laudsanne I think but an extra hour or so lets you take the Golden Pass scenic train there from Spiez (just south of Bern) - perhaps coming back west you could do that - from Montreux to Spiez/Interlaken is the course of the Golden Pass, one of Switzerland's most very popular iconic scenic trains.

We too are going to Switzerland for 10 nights in early September. After much research streamlining choices to one direction, we are focusing on the western half of the country. Comments on your plans:
1. If you are beginning the Switz portion from the Italian Lakes district, can you not originate from Lugano/Como taking the William Tell Express directly up to Lucerne? From there you can easily access Interlaken and the mtn. villages of the Bern Oberlander. We have chosen to stay 3 nts in Interlaken rather than the mtn. villages thinking that in imperfect weather we have more options, including the city of Bern. We might regret this decision, but...
2. Also from the William Tell, believe you can switch onto the Glacier Express which would bring you to Montreux (via Visp). From there you can head north on the Golden Pass bringing you into Interlaken or Lucerne and continue north into Germany. With limited time, do you really want to spend night in Zurich?
3. Montreux- In September the Chocolate Train only operates on Mon, Wed & Thurs. It is pricey at $100 pp but included in the Swiss Pass. However, you can take a local train up to Gruyere regardless and connect to Broc any day of wk. ( We will be in Montreux on a Monday, hurray!)
4. Train Class - We always travel in Europe on 2d class and our legs this trip will be 2 1/2 hrs max. 2d class has always exceeded our expectations. Our 8-day swiss pass is costing $730 for two. The flexipass or BernOberland Regional Pass would not work with our itinerary (Flexi 4 or 6 days might work for you). Of course even with a Swiss Pass or FlexiPass, the top mountain rides are only covered at 50% and 25% depending on destination. But with the trip from Lauterbrunnen up to the Jungfrau at $180 pp, our 8-day Swiss Pass was the most flexible and economical overall (we will have to purchase 28chf pp fare Zurich-Lucerne before activating our 8-day Swiss Pass upon lvg Lucerne).
5. We spent an hour at Swiss Tourist Ofc in NYC (living 30 miles west of Manhattan has its benefits); see www.sbb.ch or SwissTravelSystem.com for full train coverage & schedules. We will buy our SwissPass upon arrival at no add'l cost, one less thing to worry about now.
6. Our itinerary is arrv Zurich, train directly to Lucerne for 2 nts, 3 nts Interlaken, 2 nts Zermatt, 2 nts Montreux and quick overnight in Geneva from where we'll depart.

I think we're all going to LOVE Switzerland!! Good luck-

Thank you for your replies PalenQ and Aliced.

Well after Pals last post I did some more researching and reading and realised that I was not using our 8 day Swiss Pass to its best use.

I watched the 3 little videos on the Swiss site of the vast possibilities of the Swiss Pass. So

After staying in Bellagio we will train it to Tirano and catch the Bernina Express to Chur (Yes Aliced I did look at the William Tell train but we really wanted to do the Bernina Express, the highest rail trip in the world).

From Chur we will travel by train to either Zurich or Lucerne and stay overnight. The Bernina Epress does not get in to Chur until 6.30 so we will not want to train it too far. We would like to do a boat trip (using the pass) on either Lake Brienz or Lake Thun, finishing in Interlaken. From there we will spend 4 nights in Wengen.

After Wengen we will go via Spiez and pick up the Golden Pass train to Montreux,arriving lunchtime and stay overnight.
I think we will have to give the Chocolate train a miss.
We will then travel back up north heading to Germany and our next destination the Black Forest.

Points to consider:
- If we want to make the most of our 8 day pass I think we will have another day to use up. Does the 8 days start from the time of the first train trip?
- Where to add this day? Lucerne (although we have been there before many, many years ago) OR Berne OR somewhere else. I am open for suggestions.
- this is only a rough itinerary nothing booked yet, so lots of flexibility.

If you haven't already, you can check train schedules using the Swiss fed Rail site www.sbb.ch/en

You will notice there are several timings leaving Chur at or after 1830 in the evening that will get you to Luzern in about 2 hours; some go through Zurich; others require a change at Thalwil which is an easy change.

You may find Luzern to be somewhat more picturesque what with its wooden bridges and the setting right on the lake (of the four forest cantons).

I think you will not regret choosing the Bernina. It affords absolutely spectacular scenery.

Yes, 8 day Swiss Pass begins on 1st day chosen to validate, not necessarily on day purchased. More economical for us to pay outright Zurich-Lucerne leg and save the 8 days from Lucerne-Interlaken and right through our last day getting around Lk Geneva and to airport. ( Lastly, Bellagio was wonderful, there about 15 yrs ago at Hotel du Lac! )

- If we want to make the most of our 8 day pass I think we will have another day to use up. Does the 8 days start from the time of the first train trip?>

well to be clear it is a calendar day and not an 8-day period from the exact time you take the first train - not like a car rental would be - so yes as alcied says it starts using your first unlimited travel day the day you take you first train, after you validate the pass to start on that day - you can validate the pass ahead of time for convenience when buying the Zurich to Lucerne cheap ticket but be sure the clerk knows you want to activate it for starting the next day and not the day you are going to Lucerne.

> Where to add this day? Lucerne (although we have been there before many, many years ago) OR Berne OR somewhere else. I am open for suggestions

What are your interests? What kinds of things to you most want to see or experience on this extra day?

Thanks Aliced for sharing your trip itinerary and yes we are looking forward to Bellagio coming off our 24 hours flight.

PalenQ thanks for the clarification of the count of the 8 day pass.

kja not sure what to do on the extra day. Maybe add it to Lucerne? But we have been there, although many many years ago. Not sure whether it is worth adding an extra day down Lausanne way. We hope to get our mountain fix whilst in Wengen for 4 nights.

Really it is open to all options. Not a big fan of 1 night stays in places. But that said if it is worth moving on then we will do it. Is Berne worth a stop?

Maybe add it to Lucerne? -if you have not taken a lake boat ride around Lake Lucerne add a day here to do it perhaps - classic cruise is to the end of the fjord-like part of the lake to Fluelen or go to Vitznau and take the mountain train up to famed Mt Rigi - one of the most celebrated vista points in all of Switzerland - the Kulm, or summit, is not so high as many Alpine peaks but the lateral view over the rocky spine of central Switzerland to the west is spellbinding! Passes are valid in full on the lake boats.

Thanks for the suggestion. Yes a boat trip on Lake Lucerne does look nice.
Would the mountain trip up to Mt Rigi also be covered with the pass?

Would you consider taking a half-day very scenic trip up to Engleberg and then the ascent of Mt. Titlis? The pass will cover the rail journey but it only gives you a 50% discount on the three-stage ascent on the cableways.

You can see what is fully covered with a Swiss pass, and what is 50% (or 25%) on ths synoptic map:

http://www.swissrailways.com/downloa...tskarte_en.pdf

It shows the Mt. Rigi railways, as well as the cablecar from Rigi Kaltbad down to Weggis, as fully covered.

This makes for a great day: boat from Luzern to Vitznau, train up Rigi to the Kulm, (maybe have lunch?), train back down to Rigi Kaltbad, take a walk on one of sevaral nice trails there, for gorgous views over the lake, ride the cablecar down to Weggis, and take the boat back to Luzern.

In Wengen we love the Hotel Bären. It is more casual, less upscale than many of the Wengen hotels, but it is also less expensive. The restaurant is known for its food, which is fantastic, and the half-board option (dinner for 20 CHF) is one of the best deals around. The rooms are simply furnished but have all you need---including a balcony which is one of my "musts" in Switzerland.

Thanks again PalenQ, Dukey and Enzian for the great ideas and suggestions.

Well after much reading and studying of maps I think we have narrowed it down.
Thanks enzian for the map link it is very helpful and the Lucerne day itinerary.
So here goes:
Bernina Express to Lucerne 2 nights in Lucerne
4 nights in Wengen
1 night Montreux or would Lausanne be better?
Then train to Freiburg Germany.

I think that will take care of our 8 day Swiss Pass. Of course we will use the pass each day to the max and I am excited about all the various trains, boats, Gondolas etc. Such great hints and knowledge you all have provided

I will now have to look at accommodation

Bernina Express to Lucerne 2 nights in Lucerne>

Of course the Bernina Express doesn't go to Lucerne - to Chur at the most then regular trains - you could easily go via Zurich and backtrack to Lucerne or for a lovelier way there hop on at Pfaffikion SZ a sideline railway that rolls thru bucolic countryside to Lucerne - no need to change in the hectic Zurich HB.

Yes PalenQ I will look into the other way to get to Lucerne

One more question. Should we buy our pass well ahead of time. Can we just purchase it from the Swiss rail site. Is it correct that we will need to book seats ahead of time on the Bernina Express. Do we need to have purchased the Swiss Pass before purchasing the seat reservations?

Also reserving seats on the Golden Pass train, did I read somewhere that the seats right up front are best? When reserving seats can we pick them ourselves?

Would love to have a Swiss travel office here in Oz to ask all these questions.

Thank you for your help

You can make your Bernina Express reservations on their website:

http://www.rhb.ch/Bernina-Express.2188.0.html?&L=4

It does not appear that you need your Swiss Pass in hand to make the seat reservation. Note that there are many regional trains running on this route that do not require a seat reservation; but if you want the special Bernina Express train then reservations (9 CHF each) are a good idea.

Since you will be entering Switzerland from Tirano, you will need to either buy yor pass online in advance and have it shipped to you, or ascertain for sure that you can buy it in Italy. I could not find the informatin on sales outlets in Italy on the Swiss Travel System website, but maybe someone else knows where to look.

I could not find the informatin on sales outlets in Italy on the Swiss Travel System website, but maybe someone else knows where to look>

there is Swiss train station in Torino, Italy, right opposite the Italian station - it is not a SBB Swiss Federal Railways station so not sure they sell Swiss Passes though suspect they do.

A quick check of comparison of pass prices for passes bought in the U S and in Switzerland shows that at least on the one I checked - the popular 3-day Swiss Saver Flexipass - that pass could cost $250 p.p. if bought in the U S and 260 CH francs if bought in Switzerland - using $1.10 to the CHF means that pass in Switzerland would cost 260 x 1.10 = $286 plus whatever foreign transaction fee your c card - often 3% or another $8.50 or about $295 total vs $260 if bought in states - most agents have no mailing fee on Swiss Passes I think - for two folks the savings is significant - $70 or so total - I will have to re-check that I guess as it seems too significant. Will report back later.

You do NOT need to backtrack from Chur to Luzern through Zurich..DO NOT DO THIS!

you can check the schedules at www.sbb.ch/en

you can change in Thalwil and as I said earlier that is an easy change.

I often stay in Lausanne BUT for your purposes I would recommend staying in Montreux.

Here is a "spectacular scenery" possibility if you are in Montreux long enough. Take the trip by rail up to Rochers de Naye. Your pass will get you a discount. Believe me, this is worth the time and effort.