MXP versus GVA/ZRH:

Trains to Geneva airport (GVA) and Zurich airport (ZRH) from all parts of Switzerland at least every hr between 6am an 6pm
for example
Zermatt dp 6.13 - GVA ar 10.07, 1 train change
Zermatt dp 18.39 - ZRH ar 22.16, 1 train change
Lugano dp 20.12 - ZRH ar 23.16, 1 train change
Lucerne dp 7.10 - ZRH ar 8.13, no change
all free with Swiss Pass, etc.

Trains to Malpensa:
Milano Cadorna dp about every 30 min, 30 min journey, fare 11 EUR
Bellinzona dp 7.55 - MXP ar 10.11, Swiss Pass etc. valid up to the border
Zermatt dp 5.39 - MXP ar 10.11, 3 train changes, Swiss Pass etc. valid up to Domodossola

Buses to Malpensa:
Milano Centrale dp about every 20 min, journey time 1 hr, Fare 11 EUR
Lugano dp 7.35, 8.35 - Malpensa ar 9.00, 10.00, Fare 30 EUR

don't forget that in Switzerland you can have the railways send your bags ahead right to the plane or just about - to the airport and you can travel baggage free - great if wanting to just get off the train somewhere for a few hours.

CASTLES:

Castles are omnipresent in Switzerland. It's almost impossible to travel more than 30 miles without seeing a castle or at least a ruin of a castle. The most famous castles are:

Chillon (Montreux)
Gruyeres (Bulle)
Bellinzona (3 castles)
Munot (Schaffhausen)
Oberhofen (Lake Thun)
Grandson (Yverdon)
Stockalper (Brig)
Kyburg (Winterhur/Zurich airport)
Prangins (Swiss National Museum, Nyon/Geneva)
Werdenberg (closed until 2015)

Wow, thanks everyone. Because of your great information, I have even MORE choices now!

Seems we'll be landing in Zurich, flying out of Geneva... unless rates are quite a bit more (shouldn't be, when I plugged in potential dates).

susan, thanks for the links to your TR!

I continue to disagree with Pal that the scenery along the Glacier Express route is only "so so" and that the short segment Visp to Zermatt is more spectacular than the rest but that is a discussion that has been ongoing between the two of us FOR years!

I would say the Bernina route is overall a better trip scenery-wise. Zermatt, I am sorry but IMO the ONLY thing worth seeing there (especially if you aren't skiing) is the Matterhorn peak which can be socked in with clouds and IMO you could skip that whole thing but to each their very own and enjoy your trip.

So... if you were there for 15 nights, landing in Zurich, flying out of Geneva and wanted to see a lot of Switzerland without having to change hotels every night, say maybe a total of 3 or 4 hotels during the 15 night stay.... where should I book?

And we will probably be getting the Swiss Rail pass...

Thanks again everyone!

Dukey - it's more the marathon nature of the Glacier Express and yes IMO after a while even the most scintillating scenery can get old after several hours on a train. With the Bernina Express you can take local trains over the same tracks and of course by the same scenery - but to get between Zermatt and St Moritz in one day you just about have to take the Glacier Exptress - there are local trains but with about three changes of train and slower - well not slower but trains that stop a lot - the Glcier Express like the Bernina Express are often called th eworld's slowest "express" trains not because they barrel along but because unlike local trains that go at the same slow speed over sinuous rail lines they do not stop at every little hut like the locals do.

Yes the Glacier Epxress passes lovely scenery most of its course but for the average traveler the course is way too long IMO.

Ruby66: I would definitely stay in either Murren or Wengen in the Berner Oberland for 3 nights (I prefer Murren). These are car-free villages you get to via a wonderful lift system (included with your Swiss pass -- actually the Wengen train is not included). If you luck out with the weather, do the walk from Grütschalp to Murren (stunning). Consider taking a 1 hour train ride north of Zurich to the LOVELY frescoed village of Stein am Rhein (2 nights). Luzern -- 1 or 2 nights (I'm not a huge fan due to the large numbers of tour busses that stop there). Guarda - 2 nights. I haven't been to the Swiss Riviera, but most people enjoy it: Maybe Montreaux or Vevey, with day trips to Chillon and Gruyere.

Putting this together I might start with Zurich (1 night)
Stein am Rhein (2 nights)
Luzern (2 nights)
Guarda (2 nights)
Murren (3 nights)
Montreaux area (3 nights)
Geneva 1 night

You could save Guarda for another trip (it's on the eastern side) and instead stay 2 nights in Spiez on Lake Thun. I did this and loved the hop on-hop off lake cruise which stops at all the villages. I stopped to visit the Castle at Oberhofen.

GLACIER EXPRESS
The whole train line is scenic, via 2 gorges, 3 alpine passes (2 crossed in tunnels at aktutes of 5000 resp 6000 ft), 5 mountain valleys with completely different dialects or even languages and completely different architecture of houses, churches, etc......

But it's a long ride. Although the scenery along the railway line is nice and interesting, the real gems are often a few miles away: viewpoints (like Eggishorn, Gemsstock, Caischavedra, Corvatsch), glaciers (like Aletsch Glacier, Vadrets da Morteratsch, Pers and Palu), unspoilt mountain valleys (like Binntal, Val Sumvitg), stunning gorges (like Schoellenen, Viamala), alpine thermal spas (like Leukerbad, Bad Vals, Bad Ragaz, Bogns da Scuol)......

If you really want to discover the Glacier Express area, take slow trains and stop over again and again, may be like this:

Day 1:
Zermatt dp 7.39 - Visp (railway station restaurant) 8.47/9.08 - Fiesch ar 9.56, deposit your luggage at the railway station left luggage counter, walk through the scenic village to the cableway station and go up to Eggishorn (2930m) ar 10.48 with a splendid view over the whole Aletsch Glacier up to Jungfrau as well as to the Rhone Valley and Weisshorn, Matterhorn, Monte Leone, Binn Valley .....
Go then back by gondola up to Fiescheralp (view only to Matterhorn etc), have lunch at the terrasse of a panoramic restaurant and continue finally to Fiesch and board there the 12.58 train to Oberwald ar 13.38. Change to the historic steam train (weekends in summer only) to Gletsch - Furka - Realp (mountain village) ar 16.15 and go on by ordinary train to Andermatt and Disentis ar 18.36. Visit the church of the old Benedictine Monastery.
Sleep at Disentis.

Day 2:
Spend the morning at Caischavedra (1900m, viewpoint, gondola). Leave Disentis at 10.44 for Ilanz, put your luggage in the lockers, walk through Ilanz, the highest town aloong the Rhine river and leave Ilanz at 12.00 by bus to the scenic hidden mountain village of Vals with a Calcium Sulfate, Hydrogen Carbonate Thermal Bath, built by the famous architect Peter Zumthor:
(Indoor pool 32° C - Outdoor pool winter 36° C - Outdoor pool summer 30° C - Fire pool 42° C - Ice pool 14° C - Drinking stone with naturally warm, ferrous spring water 29.8° C - Flower pool 33° C - Sound Bath - Resonance Room 35° C Sweat Stone and Steam Stone air humidity 85-100% - Sounding Stone composition by Fritz Hauser - Massage rooms - Relaxation rooms).

Leave Vals at 16.36, change at Ilanz from bus to train and arrive at Chur at 18.01. Walk through the city center of Chur, the second town along the Rhine river. Sleep at Chur.

Day 3:
Visit the famous Rhaetian Museum and board then any St. Moritz bound train, may be Chur dp 10.58 - St. Moritz ar 12.58.

If you want to see more, you may go from Ilanz by bus to Flims and visit the Vorab Glacier (gondola) as well as the Cauma Lake (public swimming baths, cold mountain water) and the menhirs not far away ....

The Glacier Express ironically get its name from Glaciers seen from the Furka Pass that the train used to roll by before the Furka Base Tunnel was built a few decades ago - to enable year-round running of trains on the Glacier Express route as the pass used to be blocked by snow (and the rail literally pulled up in winter I understand!) - so not the glaciers that the Glacier Express got its name for - which I found out researching an article I once wrote on the Glacier Express - it no longer passes by.

susan, I am definitely considering your itinerary. I might cut back one or 2 places as I find it's a lot of moving (packing/unpacking) but at the same time it would enable us to see more...............

I've learned so much from this thread already, so excited about the upcoming trip!

Probably going to wait and book flights in March or April...

Thanks again everyone!

Ruby66: Here are my photos from two trips: 2007 covers Stein am Rhein, Berner Oberland, Spiez (and the Lake Thun Cruise), and Lucerne. 2008 photos begin with the Alsace region in France, then I returned to Stein am Rhein, and went on to Guarda and Soglio in the Southeast. You will see very diverse regions. Looking at these photos again just now has me wanting to return to Guarda and Murren.

2007 photos: http://susanbowen.smugmug.com/Travel...7884&k=XQwfwLH

2008 photos:: http://susanbowen.smugmug.com/Travel...4634&k=wqrjt4h

Just about anywhere in Switzerland is sure to please folks - you can't go wrong!

Putting this together I might start with Zurich (1 night)
Stein am Rhein (2 nights)
Luzern (2 nights)
Guarda (2 nights)
Murren (3 nights)
Montreaux area (3 nights)
Geneva 1 night

I like sue's itinerary too and also the suggestion you could substitute two days more in the Interlaken area otherwise it is a long haul no matter how to include Guarda in an itinerary with Murren and Montreux as the previous and next stops - an all-day marathon on trains and or buses.

I'm following this thread closely, because I'm planning a similar trip, and seem to share interests with Ruby. So let me ask, what do you think of taking that itinerary, and replacing the 2 nights in Guarda with 2 nights in Thun or Brienz? It seems like less travel, but are those lake towns too close to Murren? Should I add a day to Murren and do as a day trip?

Also, as cute as it looks, is 2 nights in Stein am Rhein really necessary? I'm tempted to subtract one and add it to Zurich or Luzern.

This is a great thread, very helpful. I hope I'm not hijacking by asking for suggestions on itinerary tweaks.

If you are flying into or out of Milan, Lake Locarno is a fairly short train trip from Milan and is absolutely beautiful. You could easily spend three or four nights here and enjoy travelling around the lake. We also went to Asconia which is a short ferry ride from Locarno.
In Lucerne, also consider having a day out to either Mount Pilatus or Mount Rigi. Both trips include a boat trip across the lake, funicular or cog rail railways and cable cars. Magnificent scenery at both places.

china_cat & Ruby: The more I think about previously suggested itinerary, I think I would drop Guarda and save for a future trip (where your focus would be the eastern side).

I wouldn't have less than 2 nights in Stein am Rhein. It's a wonderful spot with several things to do: Rheinfalls, the island with monastery (walking distance from town), the castle (you will need a car -- I hiked up and it's quite an undertaking), and just shopping in the town, or taking riverside strolls.

I would skip Lucerne (or only have 1 night there), because it's more of a city and the tourist capital of Switzerland. Just about every grand European tour stops there. And then people think they've seen Switzerland! Lucerne is packed with American tourists. Don't be fooled into thinking the mountains around Lucerne will be a substitute for the Berner Oberland.

Don't try to do Brienz or Thun as a day trip from the villages in the Berner Oberland alps (Murren or Wengen) Instead, pick a lakeside base: Either Brienz or a town on Lake Thun, and then day trip to other villages on that lake.

Here's a revised Itinerary:

Fly into Zurich -- Spend one night in the old town (1)
Stein am Rhein: (2)
Lucerne (1) -- you can be here in two hours from Stein, explore the city in the afternoon and then leave the next morning. Take the Golden RR line from Lucerne to Interlaken (beautiful) then change trains to Lauterbrunnen, and take the gondola to Murren.
Murren OR Wengen in the BO (3)
Spiez OR Thun OR Brienz (2)
Montreaux Area (3)
Geneva (1) Fly out

If you decide to stay in Brienz rather than Lake Thun, then you should stop there before you get to Murren or Wengen. Otherwise, you can stay in Spiez following your BO stay (this is what I did).

There doesn't exist any lake called Lake Locarno.
Locarno lies on beautiful Lake Maggiore, just a few miles north of Milano Malpensa airport and much closer to the airport than to the city of Milan.

STEIN AM RHEIN
linked by Rhine river boat with Schaffhausen/Rhine Falls and Reichenau Island Monastery - Arenenberg Napoleon castle - Konstanz, from where other boats go to Mainau Island (castle and subtropical gardens) - Unteruhldingen (Lake dwelling village) - Meersburg (old castle) - Friedrichshafen - Romanshorn resp Rorschach. From there you may reach Appenzell and St. Gallen (Unesco world heritage site). Scenic Voralpen Express trains from St. Gallen to Lake Zurich Dam - Biberbrugg (Einsiedeln Monastery) - Arth Goldau (Rigi railway) - Lucerne.

Hi neckervd. I've been to Mainau Island -- visited as a day trip from my stay in Meersburg, Germany. I considered taking a boat from Meersburg over to Stein am Rhein, but was told at the ticket window, it's a 2 or 3 hour cruise. I think Stein am Rhein worthy of a relaxing visit without going too far afield from there. I agree that Shauffhausen and the Rhine Falls would be a nice excursion from SAR.

In September we spent 10 nights in Switzerland, arriving in Zurich and departing from Geneva. We planned our itinerary with lots of help from this forum and would have only made one change. We did:

2 nights - Lucerne (in old town)
3 nights - Interlaken (vacillated btwn here & Wengen)
2 nights - Zermatt
2 nights - Montreux
1 night - Geneva (flight in morning)

We wished we had done an additional night in the Jungfrau rather than second night in Zermatt. We have skied alot in American resorts that try and look like Zermatt. So, it just seemed to us to be another great ski resort town (in the Alps!). Too commercial. Our weather in the Jungfrau was supreme so we were in the mountains every day and as a result didnt get over to Bern, or to spend any times on the lakes. We loved Montreux & Vevey but enjoyed spending a full day walking around Geneva. Yes, you can get over there via the lake, but it's faster via the train. If you stay on Lake Geneva, I'd pick Lausanne, Vevey or Montreux unless you need to be in Geneva for connection purposes. Dukey1, love the reference to 'those Vevey people.' Oh, to be one of those!!!