Switzerland & Milan ?? 15 days... help with itinerary needed
 

I am in the very early planning stages of our annual fall trip to Europe. I've been to France 5x, Belgium 2x, Austria, Hungary, Slovakia, Sweden, Finland, Denmark and Estonia... It's now time to venture south a bit, and Switzerland comes highly recommended, and is easy to fly in and out of from Toronto.

We (my sister and I) are 39 and 41, like to walk around and soak up the city we are in, take pictures of the sights, shop a bit and eat good local foods. We aren't huge museum fans, but enjoyed the ABBA museum greatly!

Initially, I am looking at flying into Zurich and out of either Geneva or Milan. We'll be there for 15 nights or so and will be traveling by trains only, not driving. I'd like to stay in smaller towns, like Zermatt, Lucerne.... Also, we'd like to make a side trip to Liechenstein, just to add another country to our list. I understand most say there is not much to see...

Here is initial idea:

Day 1: Land in Zurich
Day 2: Zurich
Day 3: Zurich, with day trip to Liechenstein
Day 4: Travel to ???
Day 5: somewhere in Switzerland
Day 6: somewhere in Switzerland
Day 7: somewhere in Switzerland
Day 8: somewhere in Switzerland
Day 9: somewhere in Switzerland
Day 10: somewhere in Switzerland
Day 11: somewhere in Switzerland
Day 12: somewhere in Switzerland
Day 13: travel to Milan
Day 14: Milan
Day 15: Milan
Day 16: fly to Toronto from Milan

Towns we'd like to stay in are Lucerne, Zermatt, St Moritz and Lugano, but we are also very flexible. We'd also like to do either the Glacier Express or the Bernina Express.

Any advice will be greatly appreciated. My last trip was amazing thanks to the suggestions I got here on the forums.

Can't help with Switzerland but I think you have too much time in Milan. It was our least favourite place in Italy. The cathedral is nice and the last supper is there but I would give it a day, no more.

You could stop at one of the Italian Lakes en eoute to Milan from Switzerland. St-Moritz was disappointing. Luckily we had taken a Swiss friend's advice and stayed nearby in charming Pontresina instead.

Thanks, jamikins. We will definitely be back in the near future to do Rome, Florence and Venice (for starters), but thought a few days in Milan would give us a different experience after Switzerland.

Thanks for the feedback! Might just spend 2 nights which will give us more time for fondue!

Since you are traveling by rail you might consider taking the Bernina Express route from Switzerland into Italy and to Milan. Requires a change in Tirano which is easily done but this is somewhat dependent on the time of year. The scenery is spectacular. And how are you planning to get to Vaduz since there aren't any rail connections I am aware of.

Dukey1, I hadn't done my research well enough, I wasn't aware the Bernina Express let me get into Italy. I'll see what the schedule is during late September.

I know there isn't a way to get into Liechtenstein by rail, but I believe one can go to the border via train, then take a bus into the city center. That's why I prefer to do this as a day trip from Zurich as we won't have to take our luggage with us.

Go here for the Rhaetian Railway site for more info on the Bernina: http://www.rhb.ch/index.php?L=4

Liechtenstein is linked by frequent buses (about every 30 min) to the railway stations of Feldkirch, Buchs SG and Sargans.

But there is absolutely nothing to do or to see: landscape, food, dialect, currency, price level, etc. are exactly the same as in the agrcultural neighbour areas of Switzerland.

Differencies between Eastern Switzerland and Western Switzerland or Ticino are at least 10 times bigger than between Eastern Switzerland and Liechtenstein.

There are different manners to lilnk the places you mention, may be:

Zurich airport - train - Lucerne - historic Lake Lucerne steamboat - Fluelen - Gotthard train - Goeschenen - Schoellenen Gorge train - Andermatt - Glacier Express - St. Moritz - Bernina Express - Tirano - bus - Lugano - train - Locarno - Panoramic Centovallil train - Domodossola - bus - Simplon Pass - Brig - train - Zermatt - train - Montreux/Chillon - historic Lake Geneva steamboat - Geneva.
Milan can easily be visited in a dayx trip from Lugano (1 hrs journey OW).

You may have a look at
http://www.myswitzerland.com/en/home.html
http://www.swisstravelsystem.ch/en/
http://fahrplan.sbb.ch/bin/query.exe/en

BTW: where did you find direct flights from MXP to YYZ?

No need to stay in Zurich. There are hourly trains direct from Zurich airport to Lucerne. Takes about an hour. While I found Zurich nicer than expected, it's not as "Swiss" as Lucerne and other locations.

And Lugano is only an hour from Milan by train, so an easy stop along the way. You could put some of your Milan days there. Or take the bus from Lugano to Lake Como, which is also close to Milan.

Sounds like you're more interested in cities than hiking or walking? Is that correct? You might like Interlaken as a base. Lots of scenery to be seen on daytrips out of there. By train: Jungfraujoch, Lauterbrennen, Murren, Wengen. By boat, the 2 lakes, Thun and Brienz. And Bern is a scenic and interesting city.

Have you looked into Swiss passes for your transportation? Switzerland is an expensive place. Even though the passes are not cheap, they can save you monny.

I found The Rough Guide and the Michelin Green Guide especially useful when planning my time in Switzerland.

neckervd, thanks a lot for your info... I found a return flight with Air Canada flying directly from Milan to Toronto (flight #843). Are you recommending flying out of Geneva and doing a day trip to Milan? This is something to consider (I'll be checking flights returning from Geneva).

Thanks!

And where would you consider staying overnight? Ideally, we'd like to stay 2-3 nights/town to limit packing/unpacking.

As for Liechtenstein, it's more about wanting to see what it's like and to say we've been there :-)

I confirm Liechtenstein is not worth a day trip. If you happen to be travelling to Chur or Feldkirch you may stop there, say, fifteen minutes just to say you were there. But it is not worth your time if you are not already en route. The ancient library at St. Gallen with its Middle Age books, just to say the first place coming to my mind, would be much more interesting that the whole Liechtenstein.

Mimar, you are right about the town/city experiences rather than the hiking. I can walk a whole day in a city, but am not adventurous enough to hike in the mountains.

Will definitely look into a rail pass. I know Switzerland is expensive... but the last trip was in Scandinavia so it's probably comparable :-)

kja, next plan is to get a guide book, but I find so much of my information on the internet...

Don't bother trying to get to Vaduz, Liechtenstein. I agree with the others. There are much more charming places in Switzerland. I've made 3 trips there in recent years and haven't begun to cover all of it. For a small country, it's very diverse. I loved the Engadin region (but not St. Moritz). I stayed in the perfectly preserved village of Guarda, which I highly recommend. From there I took a day-trip by train & bus to Scuol, and Tarasp Castle. I also visited beautiful Soglio in the Italian region. The Bernese Oberland (or Jungfrau region) is popular with American tourists, but shouldn't be overlooked. I stayed in Murren. Spectacular scenery. You sound like a city person, but honestly, Switzerland's claim to fame is its breathtaking alps.

I would not do any day trips from Geneva to Milan and before you blow off "not as Swiss as the country has been portrayed" Zurich you need to ask yourself what sorts of things you like doing. Zurich has some excellent museums and interesting church interiors.

Luzern is easy to reach from Zurich by rail and offers an entirely different "look" admittedly. And if you DO go to Luzern then you need to consider the easy half-day train trip to Engleberg and the ascent of Mt. Titlis for more spectacular countryside "it doesn't GET anymore Swiss than this" scenery including the cows, the bells, the rushing streams, etc., etc.,etc.

As to Geneva..get ready for people to tell you to stay ELSEWHERE along the north shore of Lac Leman (all the Montreux afficionados will show up shortly as well as the "Vevey people." Consider doing the Chillon Castle near Montreux which you can reach by lake steamer depending on the time of year (frequency issues) and Swiss Passes can be used on those boats. And then there's the "Toonerville Trolley" ascent up to Rochers de Naye out of Montreux (discounts with a pass).

The possibilities are endless and we haven't even tried to get you to do what I think is THE most spectaculr trip of all: the trip up to the Jungfrau in the Berner Oberland.

Enjoy, but make careful decisions and believe me, Switzerland is NOT as expensive as Oslo!!!

Dukey1: The OP said she wasn't really interested in museums. As mentioned above, I agree that Berner Oberland is probably the most spectacular scenery. Not to be missed if one is in the region.

susan, I am going to go read your trip reports!

Dukey, I do love castles... so will definitely consider seeing le Chillon near Montreux.

Why do I feel more overwhelmed now than ever?? For such a small country, there sure are a lot of beautiful places :-)

How would you all break up the 15 nights, if it was YOUR trip?

to me the absolute highlight of Switzerland is the Berner Oberland - the Jungfrau Region around Interlaken - Grindelwald- Lauterbrunnen - Wengen and an area with so so many varied things to see and do besides Alpine hikes or excursions. Book rides on the two lakes bookending Interlaken - a day out on either lake takes you to so many neat places.

Anyway consider the Jungfrau Region as well. As for the Glacier Express I would not go out of my way to take what I consider Europe's most overhyped scenic train and not nearly the most scenic in Switzerland - Zermatt to St Moritz is an all-day marathon that has most folks quickly more mesmerized by the tilting wine glasses than the yeh nice but for Switzerland so so scenery - the best of which is Visp to Zermatt which you will already have seen and Richenau to St Moritz via the Albula Pass which you have to go over to get to St Moritz.

Anway you seem to be taking enough trains to merit looking at a Swiss Pass which would cover all your mentioned trains (though the Glacier Express extorts an obscenely high supplement to use the pass on it - the Bernina Express just charges a nominal seat reservation fee/supplement. Great sources to learn about Swiss trains, passes and things like the Half-Fare Card, Swiss Card (which offers everything the half-Fare Cared does but more and which can be a better deal for some than the Half-Fare Card depending on itineraries and the Swiss Transfer ticket - www.swisstravelsystem.com; www.budgteteuropetravel.com; www.ricksteves.com.

PalenQ, thanks for the great info! I'm already looking into a Swiss Pass, which does look like a better deal for the train traveling we'll be doing......

Ruby99: For some reason my Switzerland reports do not appear under "trip reports" on my profile page, but I did find them.

Here's my TR from 2007, when I went to Stein am Rhein, Luzern, Berner Oberland, and Speiz on Lake Thun: http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...nd-july-07.cfm

Here is my TR from 2008, that covers the Engadin (most notably Guarda and Soglio). http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...rip-report.cfm

MXP versus GVA/ZRH:

Trains to Geneva airport (GVA) and Zurich airport (ZRH) from all parts of Switzerland at least every hr between 6am an 6pm
for example
Zermatt dp 6.13 - GVA ar 10.07, 1 train change
Zermatt dp 18.39 - ZRH ar 22.16, 1 train change
Lugano dp 20.12 - ZRH ar 23.16, 1 train change
Lucerne dp 7.10 - ZRH ar 8.13, no change
all free with Swiss Pass, etc.

Trains to Malpensa:
Milano Cadorna dp about every 30 min, 30 min journey, fare 11 EUR
Bellinzona dp 7.55 - MXP ar 10.11, Swiss Pass etc. valid up to the border
Zermatt dp 5.39 - MXP ar 10.11, 3 train changes, Swiss Pass etc. valid up to Domodossola

Buses to Malpensa:
Milano Centrale dp about every 20 min, journey time 1 hr, Fare 11 EUR
Lugano dp 7.35, 8.35 - Malpensa ar 9.00, 10.00, Fare 30 EUR

don't forget that in Switzerland you can have the railways send your bags ahead right to the plane or just about - to the airport and you can travel baggage free - great if wanting to just get off the train somewhere for a few hours.

CASTLES:

Castles are omnipresent in Switzerland. It's almost impossible to travel more than 30 miles without seeing a castle or at least a ruin of a castle. The most famous castles are:

Chillon (Montreux)
Gruyeres (Bulle)
Bellinzona (3 castles)
Munot (Schaffhausen)
Oberhofen (Lake Thun)
Grandson (Yverdon)
Stockalper (Brig)
Kyburg (Winterhur/Zurich airport)
Prangins (Swiss National Museum, Nyon/Geneva)
Werdenberg (closed until 2015)

Wow, thanks everyone. Because of your great information, I have even MORE choices now!

Seems we'll be landing in Zurich, flying out of Geneva... unless rates are quite a bit more (shouldn't be, when I plugged in potential dates).

susan, thanks for the links to your TR!

I continue to disagree with Pal that the scenery along the Glacier Express route is only "so so" and that the short segment Visp to Zermatt is more spectacular than the rest but that is a discussion that has been ongoing between the two of us FOR years!

I would say the Bernina route is overall a better trip scenery-wise. Zermatt, I am sorry but IMO the ONLY thing worth seeing there (especially if you aren't skiing) is the Matterhorn peak which can be socked in with clouds and IMO you could skip that whole thing but to each their very own and enjoy your trip.

So... if you were there for 15 nights, landing in Zurich, flying out of Geneva and wanted to see a lot of Switzerland without having to change hotels every night, say maybe a total of 3 or 4 hotels during the 15 night stay.... where should I book?

And we will probably be getting the Swiss Rail pass...

Thanks again everyone!

Dukey - it's more the marathon nature of the Glacier Express and yes IMO after a while even the most scintillating scenery can get old after several hours on a train. With the Bernina Express you can take local trains over the same tracks and of course by the same scenery - but to get between Zermatt and St Moritz in one day you just about have to take the Glacier Exptress - there are local trains but with about three changes of train and slower - well not slower but trains that stop a lot - the Glcier Express like the Bernina Express are often called th eworld's slowest "express" trains not because they barrel along but because unlike local trains that go at the same slow speed over sinuous rail lines they do not stop at every little hut like the locals do.

Yes the Glacier Epxress passes lovely scenery most of its course but for the average traveler the course is way too long IMO.

Ruby66: I would definitely stay in either Murren or Wengen in the Berner Oberland for 3 nights (I prefer Murren). These are car-free villages you get to via a wonderful lift system (included with your Swiss pass -- actually the Wengen train is not included). If you luck out with the weather, do the walk from Grütschalp to Murren (stunning). Consider taking a 1 hour train ride north of Zurich to the LOVELY frescoed village of Stein am Rhein (2 nights). Luzern -- 1 or 2 nights (I'm not a huge fan due to the large numbers of tour busses that stop there). Guarda - 2 nights. I haven't been to the Swiss Riviera, but most people enjoy it: Maybe Montreaux or Vevey, with day trips to Chillon and Gruyere.

Putting this together I might start with Zurich (1 night)
Stein am Rhein (2 nights)
Luzern (2 nights)
Guarda (2 nights)
Murren (3 nights)
Montreaux area (3 nights)
Geneva 1 night

You could save Guarda for another trip (it's on the eastern side) and instead stay 2 nights in Spiez on Lake Thun. I did this and loved the hop on-hop off lake cruise which stops at all the villages. I stopped to visit the Castle at Oberhofen.

GLACIER EXPRESS
The whole train line is scenic, via 2 gorges, 3 alpine passes (2 crossed in tunnels at aktutes of 5000 resp 6000 ft), 5 mountain valleys with completely different dialects or even languages and completely different architecture of houses, churches, etc......

But it's a long ride. Although the scenery along the railway line is nice and interesting, the real gems are often a few miles away: viewpoints (like Eggishorn, Gemsstock, Caischavedra, Corvatsch), glaciers (like Aletsch Glacier, Vadrets da Morteratsch, Pers and Palu), unspoilt mountain valleys (like Binntal, Val Sumvitg), stunning gorges (like Schoellenen, Viamala), alpine thermal spas (like Leukerbad, Bad Vals, Bad Ragaz, Bogns da Scuol)......

If you really want to discover the Glacier Express area, take slow trains and stop over again and again, may be like this:

Day 1:
Zermatt dp 7.39 - Visp (railway station restaurant) 8.47/9.08 - Fiesch ar 9.56, deposit your luggage at the railway station left luggage counter, walk through the scenic village to the cableway station and go up to Eggishorn (2930m) ar 10.48 with a splendid view over the whole Aletsch Glacier up to Jungfrau as well as to the Rhone Valley and Weisshorn, Matterhorn, Monte Leone, Binn Valley .....
Go then back by gondola up to Fiescheralp (view only to Matterhorn etc), have lunch at the terrasse of a panoramic restaurant and continue finally to Fiesch and board there the 12.58 train to Oberwald ar 13.38. Change to the historic steam train (weekends in summer only) to Gletsch - Furka - Realp (mountain village) ar 16.15 and go on by ordinary train to Andermatt and Disentis ar 18.36. Visit the church of the old Benedictine Monastery.
Sleep at Disentis.

Day 2:
Spend the morning at Caischavedra (1900m, viewpoint, gondola). Leave Disentis at 10.44 for Ilanz, put your luggage in the lockers, walk through Ilanz, the highest town aloong the Rhine river and leave Ilanz at 12.00 by bus to the scenic hidden mountain village of Vals with a Calcium Sulfate, Hydrogen Carbonate Thermal Bath, built by the famous architect Peter Zumthor:
(Indoor pool 32° C - Outdoor pool winter 36° C - Outdoor pool summer 30° C - Fire pool 42° C - Ice pool 14° C - Drinking stone with naturally warm, ferrous spring water 29.8° C - Flower pool 33° C - Sound Bath - Resonance Room 35° C Sweat Stone and Steam Stone air humidity 85-100% - Sounding Stone composition by Fritz Hauser - Massage rooms - Relaxation rooms).

Leave Vals at 16.36, change at Ilanz from bus to train and arrive at Chur at 18.01. Walk through the city center of Chur, the second town along the Rhine river. Sleep at Chur.

Day 3:
Visit the famous Rhaetian Museum and board then any St. Moritz bound train, may be Chur dp 10.58 - St. Moritz ar 12.58.

If you want to see more, you may go from Ilanz by bus to Flims and visit the Vorab Glacier (gondola) as well as the Cauma Lake (public swimming baths, cold mountain water) and the menhirs not far away ....

The Glacier Express ironically get its name from Glaciers seen from the Furka Pass that the train used to roll by before the Furka Base Tunnel was built a few decades ago - to enable year-round running of trains on the Glacier Express route as the pass used to be blocked by snow (and the rail literally pulled up in winter I understand!) - so not the glaciers that the Glacier Express got its name for - which I found out researching an article I once wrote on the Glacier Express - it no longer passes by.

susan, I am definitely considering your itinerary. I might cut back one or 2 places as I find it's a lot of moving (packing/unpacking) but at the same time it would enable us to see more...............

I've learned so much from this thread already, so excited about the upcoming trip!

Probably going to wait and book flights in March or April...

Thanks again everyone!

Ruby66: Here are my photos from two trips: 2007 covers Stein am Rhein, Berner Oberland, Spiez (and the Lake Thun Cruise), and Lucerne. 2008 photos begin with the Alsace region in France, then I returned to Stein am Rhein, and went on to Guarda and Soglio in the Southeast. You will see very diverse regions. Looking at these photos again just now has me wanting to return to Guarda and Murren.

2007 photos: http://susanbowen.smugmug.com/Travel...7884&k=XQwfwLH

2008 photos:: http://susanbowen.smugmug.com/Travel...4634&k=wqrjt4h

Just about anywhere in Switzerland is sure to please folks - you can't go wrong!

Putting this together I might start with Zurich (1 night)
Stein am Rhein (2 nights)
Luzern (2 nights)
Guarda (2 nights)
Murren (3 nights)
Montreaux area (3 nights)
Geneva 1 night

I like sue's itinerary too and also the suggestion you could substitute two days more in the Interlaken area otherwise it is a long haul no matter how to include Guarda in an itinerary with Murren and Montreux as the previous and next stops - an all-day marathon on trains and or buses.

I'm following this thread closely, because I'm planning a similar trip, and seem to share interests with Ruby. So let me ask, what do you think of taking that itinerary, and replacing the 2 nights in Guarda with 2 nights in Thun or Brienz? It seems like less travel, but are those lake towns too close to Murren? Should I add a day to Murren and do as a day trip?

Also, as cute as it looks, is 2 nights in Stein am Rhein really necessary? I'm tempted to subtract one and add it to Zurich or Luzern.

This is a great thread, very helpful. I hope I'm not hijacking by asking for suggestions on itinerary tweaks.

If you are flying into or out of Milan, Lake Locarno is a fairly short train trip from Milan and is absolutely beautiful. You could easily spend three or four nights here and enjoy travelling around the lake. We also went to Asconia which is a short ferry ride from Locarno.
In Lucerne, also consider having a day out to either Mount Pilatus or Mount Rigi. Both trips include a boat trip across the lake, funicular or cog rail railways and cable cars. Magnificent scenery at both places.

china_cat & Ruby: The more I think about previously suggested itinerary, I think I would drop Guarda and save for a future trip (where your focus would be the eastern side).

I wouldn't have less than 2 nights in Stein am Rhein. It's a wonderful spot with several things to do: Rheinfalls, the island with monastery (walking distance from town), the castle (you will need a car -- I hiked up and it's quite an undertaking), and just shopping in the town, or taking riverside strolls.

I would skip Lucerne (or only have 1 night there), because it's more of a city and the tourist capital of Switzerland. Just about every grand European tour stops there. And then people think they've seen Switzerland! Lucerne is packed with American tourists. Don't be fooled into thinking the mountains around Lucerne will be a substitute for the Berner Oberland.

Don't try to do Brienz or Thun as a day trip from the villages in the Berner Oberland alps (Murren or Wengen) Instead, pick a lakeside base: Either Brienz or a town on Lake Thun, and then day trip to other villages on that lake.

Here's a revised Itinerary:

Fly into Zurich -- Spend one night in the old town (1)
Stein am Rhein: (2)
Lucerne (1) -- you can be here in two hours from Stein, explore the city in the afternoon and then leave the next morning. Take the Golden RR line from Lucerne to Interlaken (beautiful) then change trains to Lauterbrunnen, and take the gondola to Murren.
Murren OR Wengen in the BO (3)
Spiez OR Thun OR Brienz (2)
Montreaux Area (3)
Geneva (1) Fly out

If you decide to stay in Brienz rather than Lake Thun, then you should stop there before you get to Murren or Wengen. Otherwise, you can stay in Spiez following your BO stay (this is what I did).

There doesn't exist any lake called Lake Locarno.
Locarno lies on beautiful Lake Maggiore, just a few miles north of Milano Malpensa airport and much closer to the airport than to the city of Milan.

STEIN AM RHEIN
linked by Rhine river boat with Schaffhausen/Rhine Falls and Reichenau Island Monastery - Arenenberg Napoleon castle - Konstanz, from where other boats go to Mainau Island (castle and subtropical gardens) - Unteruhldingen (Lake dwelling village) - Meersburg (old castle) - Friedrichshafen - Romanshorn resp Rorschach. From there you may reach Appenzell and St. Gallen (Unesco world heritage site). Scenic Voralpen Express trains from St. Gallen to Lake Zurich Dam - Biberbrugg (Einsiedeln Monastery) - Arth Goldau (Rigi railway) - Lucerne.

Hi neckervd. I've been to Mainau Island -- visited as a day trip from my stay in Meersburg, Germany. I considered taking a boat from Meersburg over to Stein am Rhein, but was told at the ticket window, it's a 2 or 3 hour cruise. I think Stein am Rhein worthy of a relaxing visit without going too far afield from there. I agree that Shauffhausen and the Rhine Falls would be a nice excursion from SAR.

In September we spent 10 nights in Switzerland, arriving in Zurich and departing from Geneva. We planned our itinerary with lots of help from this forum and would have only made one change. We did:

2 nights - Lucerne (in old town)
3 nights - Interlaken (vacillated btwn here & Wengen)
2 nights - Zermatt
2 nights - Montreux
1 night - Geneva (flight in morning)

We wished we had done an additional night in the Jungfrau rather than second night in Zermatt. We have skied alot in American resorts that try and look like Zermatt. So, it just seemed to us to be another great ski resort town (in the Alps!). Too commercial. Our weather in the Jungfrau was supreme so we were in the mountains every day and as a result didnt get over to Bern, or to spend any times on the lakes. We loved Montreux & Vevey but enjoyed spending a full day walking around Geneva. Yes, you can get over there via the lake, but it's faster via the train. If you stay on Lake Geneva, I'd pick Lausanne, Vevey or Montreux unless you need to be in Geneva for connection purposes. Dukey1, love the reference to 'those Vevey people.' Oh, to be one of those!!!