Stuart's Washington, daVinci's Mona Lisa and a question or two from Fowler
 

In touring Europe's art museums and galleries, has anyone noticed that it's impossible to find a formal portrait prior to the 1800's that depicts the subject smiling with teeth showing? Can anyone thing of one? Has anyone wondered why? Rotten teeth, I'm sure, since the toothbrush and its use in preventive care didn't come along until late in the 18th century. <BR>Have any of you travelers made an observation as offbeat and puzzling and attempted to rationalize its cause? Just a question or two to perhaps divert us from the agonies of the past few days. Any comments?

nothing immediately comes to mind but as a long time lurker (two years or more) on this site, id like to say thanks to one of the respected regulars for trying to start a thread like this at a time like this.

Wes, <BR>When studying art history, we had a slide of a famous painting of a Dutch couple who'd just been married. The painting was used by the prof to illustrate the concept of nominalism, or symbolic imagery. We all couldn't help but notice that the bride (who I recall as wearing a green dress, as the Victorian custom of the white wedding gown was yet to arise) looked..well, pregnant. When we asked the prof about this, he said brides used to stand deliberately with their pelvises thrust forward to give the appearance of being pregnant. I always thought this might mean that fertility was such a desirable trait, they were trying to portray themselves as already being preggers. Still not sure. Anyone? <BR>BC

Interesting, BC. I wonder--and this is pure speculation--if *all* brides were told to stand that way so that the virginal ones provided prophylactic (sorry!) cover for those who truly *were* pregnant? <BR> <BR>But Wes, speaking of Fowlers--Hogarth's "The Shrimp Girl" (mid 1700s) at the National Gallery in London has her uppers showing, and nice white ones, too. By contrast, Ribera's "Boy With A Club Foot" (1652) at the Louvre has visibly rotting teeth. Of course, these are not formal portraits of aristos. But then, the aristos and wealthy clergy who sat for formal portraits often scowled or glared outright. Perhaps it was considered unseemly or undignified for them to smile as the unwashed masses did?

Maybe because the purpose of portraits was to conveyed an image of authority, wealth and power and a smile would had not appropriately conveyed those? <BR> <BR>I read somewhere that it was customary of the wealthy families in Europe to have sets of false teeth made to order in France (Sevres Porcelain). Apparently those were so perfectly crafted that in one occasion, the Queen of Spain Maria Luisa (daughter of Phillip V, wife Charles IV, had 24 kids, 14 of which survived; rumor has it none of them were Charlie's......) was asked one time by the Empress Josephine the secret of her perfect denture. To the horror of both Napoleon and Josephine, she took off the denture and showed them with extreme pride. The truth was that her real teeth were black and rotten, which was also the cause of frequent extreme mouth pain. To eased the pain, she was prescribed opium and became heavily addicted to it. Quite the lady, she was madly in love with the painter Goya, to the point that it is said that she was who ordered the poisoning of the Duchess of Alba, the beautiful lady that posed for Goya's Majas. <BR> <BR>Oh, yes Sally, that was fun for a change......

Escritora, <BR>"The Shrimp Girl"?!?!? <BR> <BR>Somebody painted a portrait of Sally centuries prior to her birth???? How the....????? <BR> <BR>BC

BC.... <BR> <BR>YOU CRACK ME UP!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for the first real laugh I have had all day, Wes! Glad to see you post! <BR>

BC -- I thought I asked you not to tell the story of my previous incarnations .... <BR>a regular -- I am not now, nor have I ever been Wes Fowler -- more to my loss than his:)

BC, I can only surmise that Hogarth had a vision. Sort of like Nostradamus's...only shorter...

I was just reading about G. Washington's dentures having visible hinges at the corners. Yuk! Guess I can see why no portrait was ever done like that. <BR>Also, I remember taking an art history class in college, where we scrutinized several pictures painted by the Lindbourg Brothers, for the Duc de Berry for his Book of Hours (an absolute masterpiece of late medieval art, and genre scenes)... and in one of the photos... a winter scene of peasants relaxing by a fire, while it was cold outside, in the painting the woman peasant has her skirt hitched up all the way to her waist and her "private, naughty bits" hanging out for all to see, including, if I recall correctly a somewhat lecherous looking chap next to her who is learing down at them. <BR>It's one of those things you wouldn't notice unless it was pointed out to you, and between you and I, I don't know who the Lindbourg brothers used for their model of female anatomy but wowser, is it just NOT RIGHT. <BR>This particular painting struck me as funny since most medieval paintings are of a religious nature, or of somewhat glorified idealized gentry. <BR>PS. Bless you Wes!

OK....yep I wrote one of the photos...please read that as one of the PAINTINGS.

An idle mind is, if not dangerous, certainly a frivolous thing. With trip plans almost complete, I've little to occupy my mind other than a loopy question or two. Since our British cousins intend to join us in our latest endeavor against some vile creatures, I've gotten curious about some of Britain's current or former organizations, namely "The Scottish Society of Improvers"; "The Anti-Sweating League" and "The Broad Bottom Ministry". They all are, or were, honest to goodness thriving organizations, but whatever for? I envision "The Scottish Society of Improvers" coming into being to introduce weight loss programs for "The Broad Bottom Ministry" only to be thwarted by "The Anti-Sweating League"s opposition to any form of exercise. <BR> <BR>Anyone care to venture an explanation of what the true purpose of these real organizations might be?

According to Bartleby.com, the Broad Bottom Ministry was formed in 1744 "by a coalition of parties: Pelham retained the lead; Pitt supported the Government; Bubb Doddington was treasurer of the navy". I realize that doesn't answer your question, but it's the best I can do! <BR> <BR>I can do better on the Anti Sweating League, though. It was a pre WWI labor organization The that "defined sweated labour as '(1) working long hours, (2) for low wages, (3) under insanitary conditions'". Your basic early 20th century leftish stuff. <BR> <BR>I'm totally stumped, though, on the Scottish Society of Improvers. Anyone else?

Sorry, boring. The Improvers in the 18th C. were advocates of improved agricultural education and practice which had the (inadvertant?) effect of leading to the demise of the former communal grazing patterns in much of Scotland, and to the enclosing of the commons in England. Part of the Scottish Enlightenment, the idea fell conveniently into the hands of the colonizing aristocracy following the Highland Clearances - chop up the land, parcel it out to individuals instead of families or clans, loss of economies of scale and presto, a countryside of peasants. Can't make a living? Join the army or move to Glasgow or Belfast or America. Robert Burns may have lost his farm because of Improver ideas gang aft agley.

Hey..... you guys are just way too smart for me. Is smiling is a more recent cultural phenomenon? I know that Pacific Islanders tend to smile a lot, teeth or no teeth.

HI. I am the worlds most influential person. Peace out !!!!!

What are you talking about? DUDE! You know I am the worlds most influential person. I am George W. Bush!! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Wes, I believe you are right. I've read that the first portrait with the subject smiling and showing his or her teeth was a self portrait by Mme Vigee le Brun in ca. 1781. It was thought shocking at the time - far too affected! <BR>But she continued to use the device in many of the portraits that she painted. <BR> <BR>Vigee Le Brun had a fascinating life - for a synopsis see <BR>http://www.batguano.com/VLBintro.html <BR>http://www.batguano.com/catno11.html

Well thanks folks -- I just learned a lot about English history -- actually I knew about the land thing -- used to talk about it in connection with the industrial revolution etc.. in my "Technology & Human Values" class -- nice to have a little more context :)

I'm in awe! Can't believe that accurate answers to the origins and purpose of three obscure British organizations could materialize so quickly. Can I try again? If I'm wandering through Upper Bavaria in autumn and I attend a Viehscheid and a Leonhardiritt what will I encounter? Why?

From september 11th to about the 20th there is a event in <BR>Allgäu - Bavaria called "Viehscheid" this is when the Cows <BR>come down from the Huts on high ground, where they have <BR>grazed for the summer getting fat. <BR>On the Viehscheid the cows are separated from each other, <BR>the Herdsman calls out the name of the owners and each <BR>owner takes care of his cows. <BR>There is always a big party when the cows come down, with a <BR>large beer-tent, orchestra playing and so on. <BR> <BR> <BR>

St. Leonard's Day, celebrated on November 6, is also not an official holiday. In rural Bavaria, especially Upper Bavaria, it is still observed. <BR>St. Leonard is considered the patron saint of horses. In many towns a "Leonhardiritt" (Leonard Ride) takes place. Originally only riders took part in the procession, later carts for the womenfolk were added. The procession rounds the church three times and the horses are blessed. <BR>The most famous ride is the one held in Bad Tölz. <BR>

It is much more practical to sit for a portrait with one's mouth closed. Have you tried holding the same smile for hours?

Book Chick: The painting you are refering to is Jan Van Eyck's Giovanni Arnolfini And His Bride. It does look like Jeanne (the woman) is pregnant. But,if you look closer you will notice she is holding the train of her gown in her hand in front of her. I don't know whether this was to show the volume of material used in the dress (which would connote wealth) or that Van Eyck wanted her hand placed in front, rather than clumsily hanging at her side. I highly doubt Van Eyck would deliberately infer that Jeanne was pregnant before her wedding day. This painting was commissioned and it is unlikely that Arnolfini would have paid for a portrait that was insulting.

JG, <BR>Thanks for the info; knew it was a Van Eyck & the rest was going from memory! <BR>BC

Hey Book Chick......Actually, the name of the painting is "The Arnolfini Marriage" (it is in the National Gallery in London) According to Sister Wendy, the way she is standing and holding her dress is to symbolize fertility. The painting is only 23 1/2 x 32 1/4, but when you stand in front of it, it seems so much larger...I'm sure because of the details....especially when you look into the mirror and see Van Eyck himself....

Ummmmmm Laura, you'd better turn down that music and stop smoking that wacky weed because you don't know what you are talking about. The title of the painting is Giovanni Arnolfini And His Bride. Also, Van Eyck is NOT reflected in the mirror. Giovanni, Jeanne, and witnesses are reflected in the mirror. This is a WEDDING SCENE and witnesses are needed. Why would Van Eyck put himself in the painting???? Does a wedding photographer put themselves in someone's wedding photos?????????? The reason I know so much about this painting is because I studied it in college and wrote a 15-page paper on it. I DID NOT just turn on the TV and listen to what Sister Wendy had to say. :) If you are go to contradict someone, get your facts straight first.

johng....I'm sorry if I offended you. Actually, on page 64 in Sister Wendy's Story of Painting, she says, "The Arnolfini marriage" is a name that has been given to this untitled double portrait by Jan van Eyck." So, it may be called many things, I guess. <BR> <BR>Also, on page 65, Sister Wendy says, "The mirror is painted with almost miraculous skill. Its carved frame is inset with ten miniature medallions depicting scenes from the life of Christ. Yet more remarkable is the mirror's reflection, which includes van Eyck's own tiny self-portrait, accompanied by another man who may have been the official witness to the ceremony." <BR> <BR>In Great Paintings of the Wester World, by Alison Gallup, Gerhard Gruitrooy and Elizabeth M. Weisberg, on page 110, they say, "In a display of technical bravura, he has included, reflected in the convex mirror at the very back of the room, a self-portrait of himself at work on the picture, along with a rear view of the couple." <BR> <BR>And when I saw the painting myself at the National Gallery, our guide pointed out the reflection of van Eyck in the mirror.

Well bravo for you Johng! <BR>too bad you did not write a 15 pg report on communication skills! <BR>It probably would have gotten you further in life.

Actually, Johng, both names are used as titles of this painting and everyone who has studied art (except you, perhaps) knows that van Eyck painted his reflection in the mirror along with a witness.... That's one of the many things that makes this painting so interesting. I love it when people are so arrogant and then end up making fools of themselves!

Did I hit a nerve? My god, chill out. I was just funnin' you.......

I'm still painting by numbers....

Few questions this time, mostly some comments. With regard to the van Eyck painting of the Arnolfini wedding, I'm surprised no one has commented on the symbolism in the painting. Flemish painters from Heironymus Bosch on were famous for including symbolic objects in their paintings. What for example, is the significance of the shoes? Are bride and groom barefoot? Odd, too, to see a dog in a formal wedding portrait; is there significance to his being there? <BR> <BR>Finally, to the respondent regarding the questions about Viehscheid and Leonhardiritt. You're quite correct, however, had you actually experienced both festivals rather than depending upon internet research, you'd know that many of the cattle are adorned with floral headpieces as they're paraded down from high pasture land. In many of the villages near Bad Tolz, the Leonhardiritt also includes whip cracking demonstrations with antique coachmen's whips following the parade to the church and the celebratory Mass. Benediktbeuern's Leonhardifahrt rivals that of Bad Tolz. Check 'em out, live and in color rather than on a 17" inch screen, by visiting Bavaria in November.

Again, according to Sister Wendy's Story of Painting book, on page 65, she says, "Almost every detail can be interpreted as a symbol. The companion dog is seen as a symbol of faithfulness adn love. The fruits on the window ledge probably stand for fertility and our fall from paradise. Even the discarded shoes are not thought to be incidental, but to signify the sanctity of marriage." And on page 64 in mid-sentence--"the unshod feet (since this is the ground of a holy union)"

I'm sure I've heard of other painters who painted themselves into their paintings, sometimes into crowd scenes. I believe I saw one in Spain--did El Greco put himself in the huge Count Orgaz painting which is seen in a church in Toledo? I'm sure some of my erudite fellow fodorites will know of some examples. <BR> <BR>Think how Alfred Hitchcock appeared briefly in all his movies.

Yes, The Arnolfini Wedding portrait is full of symbolism. The greatest being, I think, that the ceremony takes place in the bedroom--with the marriage bed in full view. And I also agree that the oranges are a symbol of fertility and the dog a symbol of faithfulness. But, I also feel that all these things are a symbol of wealth above all else. This portrait was commissioned and I think that Giovanni Arnolfini wanted to show off his wealth--a brass chandelier, a mirror, rich cloth, windows, a carpet. The most important aspect of this painting, however, is the effect of the light streaming through the window, producing a stillness and solemnity to the work.

Yes Dianne, you are right, RE: Goya's "El Entierro del Conde Orgaz". He painted himself on the center line, standing, he is the guy looking straight. He also painted his son, he is the kid on the lower left corner. <BR> <BR>Another well-known: a self-portrait of Velazquez appears in "Las Meninas".

I've often found myself staring at George Seurat's "Sunday Afternoon on the Island of La Grande Jatte" and asking "What's the point?"

Capo, <BR> <BR>ilism? <BR> <BR>BC