speeding ticket in the mail
 

I've been back from Italy for 3 months and today recieved a certified letter that looks to be a speeding ticket. It is in Italian, English, German and French. The English translation is very difficult to understand. It reminds me of the Nigerian money scams. Is this for real? I was not pulled over at any time and I don't recall seeing a camera trap. What happens if I don't pay it? Has anyone else had this happen? Please help. Thanks.

Yes, it is quite possible it is real. There are cameras for speeding and tickets can be sent as a result. But take a look. Who is it from? Assuming you rented a car, is it from the car agency which is who would have had to supply your personal information when their car was caught on camera? Where are you to send the money and how? Check out the address to see if it is official.

We were stopped for a traffic violation in Italy and received a ticket on the spot: it was written in Italian only-no English and required payment in our local stazione (we were resident in Italy) within 1 month-I suppose it is possible that they have some sort of International division but I hav never heard of it...

That's really interesting. Sounds pretty fishy. It's a good idea to ask your rental agency. Please report back what you find out about it. Good luck.

The "ticket" is not from the car rental company. There is a bank number to wire the money to. Also, no photo was sent.

Well of course i would just ignore it - they going to come looking for you? But if you're going back to Italy sometime i guess they could nab you at customs - easily done with computerized passports it seems.
I'd call the Italian Embassy or Consulate in the U.S. and ask about this.

I agree with Neo. There is no way the authorities could possibly know where to send a camera-generated citation unless they contacted the rental agency.

Unless someone ELSE contacted the rental agency or knew you were driving a car in Italy..if it is a scam then it is pretty clever and obviously a lot more sophistocated than any of those "I'm the former financial planner for Nigeria and having recently fled into the jungles where my mother died and left you a fortune...things we see.

Of course you don't recall "seeing a camera"...that's the point.

I would think 'what happens if i don't pay it" depends on who sent it. If it were from the rental agency I'm surprised they haven't charged your CC already!

Nobody ever "speeds"..people just get caught doing something similar. How they respond speaks volumes.

That bank wire transfer number could be a tip-off to something fishy: you have to go to a police station or a post office in Italy to pay tickets, not banks...

Wire money to a bank account? No way. I'd ignore it. If you hear again, then contact the car agency in Europe and check it out from them. But frankly the most logical person to have tracked you down is some employee of the car agency itself who had those details and has a special bank account set up for lining his pockets.

Hi D,

You can get a speeding ticket in the mail.

I think that the one you got, however, is a clever scam.

>The English translation is very difficult to understand. <

It's likely that the other languages are just as bad.

>There is a bank number to wire the money to.<

That sounds odd.

I suggest calling the car rental agency to find out if they received a citation.

((I))

I know in Switzerland that is how traffic tickets are given out... they take the picture and send it to your home. The cameras are in boxes at the side of the road.

We received a letter from Avis about 2 months ago telling us that we had been caught speeding during our trip to Germany. They gave the exact date and location of the infringement. They told us that they had provided our name and address to the German authorities who would be sending us a ticket.

However, we have still not received any ticket. When we do, I am inclined NOT to pay it as we don't plan to return to Germany anytime in the near future.

We received a speeding ticket from Italy in 1985...we never paid it. We have returned to Italy 5 times since then and have never had any trouble travelling or renting a car.

I don't have any personal experience with this.

Assuming that you used a credit card, I think the rental companies normally go thru your credit card company (the same route that they would take if the fuel tank was 1.9 gallons under full).

I recommend that you ask the rental car company. I am sure that they know if you still owe them some money.

Ignore it...even if it is legitemate there is very little they can do about it anyway.

Yeah - never take responsibility for your actions if at all possible. And pass that on to your offspring. There aren't nearly enough cheats in the world as it is.

Well, if no photo was sent, I'd feel no obligation to pay even if I thought it was legit. They'd have have to provide some evidence that I was actually driving the car at the time.

Look..I understand other countries do not have the protections built into American law but one thing I resent with the whole traffic infraction system in the USA and apparently in Italy is the assumption is a person is guilty when they walk into "court"..the principle a person is innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt does not apply in US traffic courts as the system is used basically to raise revenue...what proof is there the equipment was working properly? It seems to me the person is being deprived of the right to contest this.....that is why I would ignore such a travesty..let them come after me and then give me my day in court....they, assuming this "ticket" is legit are guilty of depriving the person of the right to contest what could be a trumped up charge...it happens all the time in NYC where the police are under orders to issue a certain number of tickets and it doesn't really matter if the person is innocent and it has happened to me that I got a summons for passing a red light when the officer was in a position where he could not see the color of the light facing me..I brought in pictures to prove that...the officer lied and committed perjury when he signed the summons that he had personally observed the violation when it was shown he could not possibly see the light he claims I passed..he assumed because of the light he was facing that the light facing me was red but that is not personally observing the violation..but the city of new york is so hard up for revenue and the so called judge is a hearing officer whose salary is based on the number of convictions he hands out that it doesn't matter if the person is innocent. Guilty, guilty, guilty is all you hear.

Let them prove I was speeding would be my attitude.

I agree it sounds bogus. If a camera caught you speeding the police would contact the car rental company who would let you know.

And the return address would have something to do with the Italian government - no wiring to a blank bank account.

To satisfy my curiosity I would contact the car rental agency. But I woldn;t pay unless I were positive it was legitimate - in which case I would. (In 1985 they didn't have computer systems to track anything. Now if you try to go back and rent from the same company they might either turn you down or charge you for the ticket.)

I understand and agree that this is probably a scam and is best ignored until you have any reason to believe it is for real.
But I'm kind of shocked by the idea that if it is real that you should still ignore it. And the idea that someone is not going back there so they might as well ignore it. . . wow! Is that like saying, "nyah, nyah, nyah, they can't catch me" or "thank goodness I sped away after I ran down that little old lady and they don't know who I am anyway"?

I would contact your rental car agency and ask this question.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the rental agency owns the car and ultimately they are responsible....but of course if they had to pay you probably signed some kind of agreement that they can debit your credit card for any such violations or do they do it differently in Italy?

In every country I've been in, the driver (not the owner) is responsible for the operation of the vehicle.

All I can hope is that the scofflaws who've posted here get caught, prosecuted, convicted, fined, and imprisoned. You make me sick.

xyz, they are starting to use cameras here in Florida -- more for running lights than speeding. But you and Robespierre are both sort of right. If a camera catches the "car" speeding or otherwise violating a traffic law, they can only ticket the owner of the car. If I lend my car to a friend and he is caught on camera speeding, they aren't going to send him a ticket -- they're going to send it to me and I am responsible for paying. It is up to me to get my friend to pay me back. Same with a rental. They can only ticket the rental car owner or least get the information from them, but they would certainly come after you to pay them.

Robes..

NYC has installed red light cameras in about 10 or 12 locations (the locations are public knowledge) and under the law granting the city to raise revenue this way, the license plate of the car is photographed, a copy of the photograph is provided, and the owner of the car is liable for the fine (it is not considered a moving violation more or less in line with a parking ticket)..

One is not a scofflaw ifone insists on the basic democratic right to defend oneself when a summons, which can have consequences including a rise in insurance rates, is wrongfully issued.

Surely you believe in the rule that a person is innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt or do you start with the assumption that every traffic ticket issued is warranted?

I think people should take responsibility for their actions. Speeders know when they're speeding. The Right Thing is to fess up and pay, not try to slip through cracks in the system.

...and the equipment is guaranteed to be 100% accurate...half the speeding tickets issued in the USA based on radar are probably based on innacurate radar readings but again why should the states care as issuing these tickets is a rich source of revenue.

I rest my case. <i>That</i>'s what I'm talkin' about.

&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
if a camera caught you speeding the police would contact the car rental company who would let you know.
....
the rental agency owns the car and ultimately they are responsible
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;

lots of experts on italian law here.

Why would you need evidences to be brought at a trial in order to pay a fine? You don't know what you did and need it to be proven to you beyond the shadow of a doubt?

I'm sure that most people know whether they broke the law or not. If they did break it by speeding, refusing to pay the fine on the basis of legal technicalities is just weaseling away, and, as Robespierre put it, refusing to take responsability for their actions.

&quot;I'm not going to pay because I won't return there and there's probably nothing they can do about it&quot; puts you in my view in the same basket as the average despicable criminal.

Now, if you're actually convinced you didn't break the law, I've no moral qualms with you not paying the fine if you can get away with it.



Also, discussing who has to pay the fine (the owner or the driver) in Italy or Germany on the basis of what is done in New York or in Florida doesn't make sense.


And of course I'm very happy, as you might guess, with foreigners, who not only are willing to put my life at stakes on the road, hence are criminals, but also are unwilling to face the consequences when caught if they can get away with it, hence are also weasels.

It's pleasant to see what kind of highly moral advices are given on this board. I sure hope you'll be equally supportive of european tourists who break american law. Now, excuse me while I'm going to pickpocket a couple tourists. Don't worry about me, tourists generally don't bring complaints, so I'll probably get awy with it, and it's obviously the only thing that matters. I used to hide this side activity, but since I now know that many amongst you agree with my reasonning, and are supportive, I've no more any reason to hide it.

And regarding the OP : check this with your car rental agency and/or possibly the Italian embassy.

You shouldn't ignore it on the basis that you suspect it's a scam (say, organized by an employee of the rental agency), because you don't want other people to fall for it nor the scammer to get away with it.

In case it's not bogus i agree with Robespierre - pay it - either that or you endorse wanton disregard of another country's laws - as a tourist i always try to follow the law or - not to do so would to be an Ugly American! As for innocence, don't be a Lance Armstrong - fess up because my understanding to is that these machines are foolproof.

you could also send a photocopy of the ticket to an italian police department , or even the italian embassy in your country, with a letter asking if this is valid.

I have gotten one of these for running a red light, and they did submit the photo to me. I knew I was guilty, but it wasn't as bad as it sounds (I wasn't speeding through a red light)-- rush hour traffic at a standstill, I had been waiting through two lights at an intersection and went through just after it turned red on my third try. But, I knew I was guilty so paid it, at least it didn't count on my license.

Now, you don't usually see cameras for a speeding ticket. YOu might see the sensor thing as they move them around where I live, but you easily could not. I haven't gotten one of those, but easily could as they do use that to gain revenue beyond what is really dangerous where I live. They put them where they know people might speed due to conditions or unrealistically low speed limits. Sometimes they are in legitimate places, but it really is to gain revenue, not to help traffic.

Still, if I got one of those (and I don't know how they send those out) and knew I was on that street at that time, I would know I was probably guilty if they said what I was going, as I usually know my patterns. I don't think they send them out for borderline measures.

One they have really annoys me (speeeding sensor) as it's on a main thoroughfare of six lanes across (3 each direction) which has very few lights on it in this area, so is a good street for commuters. They have the speed on that posted as 25 MPH for some unknown reason I can't figure out, in the mile between intersections where there are no pedestrians, no lights, and no cross traffic. This isn't even a residential area, either. Of course, they can give a lot of tickets as most people drive around 40. Sometimes I think they post it at 25 MPH just to give tickets.

I confess to being amused by the leap in logic that someone who doesn't pay a ticket will next speed off after running down an old lady.

That's not a slippery-slope argument; it's a sheer precipice.

BTW, I always pay my tickets but have run down an old lady or two in my time.

clairobscur--you're insulting the 4-legged, furry weasels with your comparison.

And in the USA (at least the states I'm familiar with) the owner of the car is, indeed, responsible for any tickets issued when the driver of the car is not identifiable by the authorities (e.g.; parking tickets, red light camera tickets, etc.). I would think it would be the same everywhere unless they have some sort of magic way to identify drivers in other countries (darn Commie governments over there probably implant computer chips in their citizens' orifices, by gum!)

Of course when you sign your rental agreement for a vehicle, you agree to pay any fines for traffic violations.

I've also experienced a police officer lying in court about a ticket I was issued when I hadn't even gotten my poor old car up to the speed limit, let alone exceeding it. That is an extremely helpless feeling as you know there is no way you're going to win against the word of a noble officer of the law.

&quot;I confess to being amused by the leap in logic that someone who doesn't pay a ticket will next speed off after running down an old lady.&quot;

Huh? I merely asked if saying &quot;I can get away with speeding&quot; is the same as saying &quot;I can get away with leaving an accident&quot;.
Who on earth, beside you, j_999_9, made any reference to a person who does one thing is next going to do the other? I think you have really misinterpreted a post here.

Meanwhile, one doesn't need a degree in Italian law to figure out that the only person the police can contact in the case of a photograph is the owner of the car, rather than the driver. And it doesn't take a law degree to figure out that there is no way to hold a particular driver responsible as there is no way to prove who was driving the car. Those cameras in Italy will do no better at recognizing a particular driver than the ones in Florida will do; they only identify the car and track the owner of the car via the registration. I rest my case that it is the owner of the car that is ultimitely responsible for the fine -- and it is up to them to make a particular driver responsible for paying it for them or to them. Anyone who thinks that the police somehow can contact a foreign driver of a car without having gone through the owner of the car is not only ignorant of the law (which we all are) -- he just has no common sense. Sorry.

However, in this case the driver of the car IS identifiable..it is obviously the person who was RENTING the car at the time of the incident.

If someone else was driving the car then the renter is obviously responsible for allowing THAT to occur.

As I said earlier, how the OP responds to this speaks volumes..and in this case, so does a lot of the advice!

But Dukey what if the renters had registered two or more drivers? The police really don't CARE who was driving. They only know that the owner of the car is responsible for the ticket -- let him sort out who pays. I still say, the ticket had to go through the car agency in one way or another.