"The US forms are infinitely more time consuming and infinitely more complicated."

Agreed. Our Swiss tax forms are easy to do. The U.S. forms are not. And FWIW, there is no standard "European" tax form, each country's forms are different, so blanket generalisations about "European" tax forms are meaningless (and I believe cathinjoetown lists current residence as south Florida).

I am surprised by the OP's assertion that getting Spanish citizenship means giving up U.S. citizenship. My husband is a dual citizen (Canadian/US). His mother had three (UK, Canadian, US). We are on the Swiss citizenship track and don't plan to give up our U.S. citizenship. I know lots of dual citizens and there's been no problem.

As for the myriad benefits of having U.S. citizenship abroad, well all I can say is that Swiss banks don't find it such a treat. And when my in-laws were hostages in Kuwait during the first Gulf War, the U.S. State Department was pretty useless. All the meaningful aid and counsel they received came from Canada. The State Department called us regularly but couldn't even get their facts straight about our relationship to his parents -- sometimes they referred to his aunt and uncle, other times to his brother and sister. We corrected them each time, but they would still get it wrong on the next call. MiL managed to leave through the intervention of the British and FiL got out with a planeload of German hostages (he had been a German national, but gave that up when he became Canadian).

There are exceptions for dual citizenship for the US and another country, but my SIL does not qualify.

This cites the circumstances and exceptions for dual citizenship.

http://immigration.findlaw.com/citiz...tizenship.html

WesserTee,

I live in Europe. Therfore, the tax forms I fill out in the Euorpean countyr to which I pay taxes are Eureopan -- and O cam sire that they are more complicated than the US tax forms I fill out. No one is claiming the European tax forms you fill out in Switzerland are.

Cathieinjoetown posted that she lived in Europe during a past period of time. (Maybe part of your difficulty with the US tax forms is English comprehension?

It is unsurprising that when a country invades another country, it loses leverage with the country they invaded in protecting its citizens. Most people asking questions on the Europe board aren't looking to live in any countries the US is likely to invade, and should think long and hard renouncing their US citizenship to become a citizen of a country in the European Union until the future of the European Union is more clear.

But I get it that the real point of your story was just to tell a dramatic anecdote.

Sorry -- keyboard problems: I can assure you that the European tax forms I fill out are more complicated that the US ones. Too bad I don't live in Switzerland in that one regard.

you can access the Spanish healthcare system after 12 consecutive months of legal residency. So one just needs to get a health plan that complies for the visa which must include expatriation.

imdonehere:

From the article you posted, this is the section that is relevant to my several U.S. friends who hold both U.S. passports and that of another country. Also my husband's situation reversed. Would this not be applicable to your SIL?

"The United States does not formally recognize dual citizenship. However, it also has not taken any stand against it, either legally or politically. Typically, no American will forfeit his or her citizenship by undertaking the responsibilities of citizenship in another country. This is true even if the responsibilities include traveling with a foreign passport, voting in another country's election, or running for and/or serving in public office of another country. In most cases, it is unimportant to U.S. authorities whether another country also claims you as a citizen."

wesswer, massimop--I lived in France from 2009 through 2015. France was our country of residence.

yes, I was pushing back against the insinuation that you hadn't lived in Europe, or that since you were now not there, your view didn't count.

Going from lincasanova's post, providers like Blue Shield (GeoBlue for international coverage) as was mentioned above often do insure individuals in their later years who undertake missionary work or professional scholarly research for a year abroad. I am not saying that I know that the OP's SIL should pursue these things (or hasn't already) but for others thinking about relocating to Europe from the US who are looking for health insurance to obtain a visa, these are the kinds of paths that have worked for many people.

Now that we learned, through the informed posters here, that one would have to pay for only one year before being able to obtain national health insurance, the situation appears to be more manageable for those seeking to relocate. As long as one can afford the high monthly fees for 12 months.

ekscrunchy,

Correct to a point.

As has been pointed out, situations change, policies change and there isn't anything that can be guaranteed Europe-wide.

Spain and its policies and costs are the issues for the OP but other countries aren't necessarily the same although within the EU, healthcare is supposed to be a right and supposed to be applied fairly, at least for people from EU countries.

The only real authority is Spain.

Eks - That would have to be verified, but how ?

https://www.expatica.com/es/healthca...in_576716.html

IT looks as if there are some restrictions - you either need to be paying taxes or in receipt of a governemnt pension.

https://www.citizensadvice.org.es/fa...pecial-scheme/

Plus, it looks as if it doesn't include the cost of medications.

From the thread, linked above:

<If you are not eligible, you can choose to pay for medical treatment, take out private healthcare insurance, or in some regions, you can pay into a government-run health insurance scheme called the convenio especial in order to access free state healthcare in Spain. You need to have been registered on the padrón for 12 months, and pay a basic monthly fee (EUR 60 a month for the under 65s and EUR 157 for 65+).>

I have three citizenships, including US citizenship. By birth, I'm an Irish citizen and a US citizen. I've acquired Italian citizenship. None of these interferes in any way with the others.

I believe that Spain requires that you renounce all other citizenships in order to become a Spanish citizen. That's where the problem lies. Italy doesn't require that, and Ireland doesn't even recognize renunciation of Irish citizenship.

My father was a dual citizen of Ireland and the UK when he emigrated to the US. At that time, the US required the renunciation of all other citizenships to become a US citizen. His renunciation was recognized by the UK; otherwise I'd have four citizenships. It wasn't recognized by Ireland, so I was born an Irish citizen.

It's now very rare that a person loses US citizenship. It used to be that serving in foreign military forces automatically cost you citizenship, but a case involving an Israeli/US joint citizen who served in the Israeli military resulted in that rule being overturned. The page linked by Imdonehere now says you can lose your citizenship by "Serving in the armed forces of a country which is engaged in hostilities against the United States."

There was also a case involving a prominent Mexican/US citizen whose US citizenship was revoked because of very public denunciation of the US government. She sued and won her citizenship back. That condition has also been modified now to say, "Committing an act of treason against the United States, or attempting or conspiring to overthrow the U.S. Government."

Besides, if they revoke your citizenship, they can't tax you anymore, and they wouldn't want that, would they?

My ex has both US and Spanish citizenship. The Spanish one by virtue of marrying a Spanish gal.

The Spanish requirement that you "renounce" your US citizenship does not mean that you actually lose it, although Spain will treat you purely as a Spanish citizen thereafter. In order to "renounce" your US citizenship with practical effect you would have to show up at a US embassy/consulate and sign a statement saying you were renouncing it.

https://travel.state.gov/content/tra...tizenship.html

One of the expat forums has this:
"Basically, the lawyer I consulted confirmed that since April of 2014, Spain even addressed this issue of what it means to renounce previous citizenship and said that they require the oath, but they do not check to see whether you have actually renounced the other citizenship. " (http://www.expat.com/forum/viewtopic...321995#3225379 )

There is an inconclusive discussion on that thread about the issue of holding two passports.

It is not the Spanish government request to renounce your citizenship, it is the position of the US government.

The US government does NOT require you to renounce your citizenship on acquiring another. If you believe otherwise, please provide a citation other than the one you already provided which does not support your position, and say:s "Typically, no American will forfeit his or her citizenship by undertaking the responsibilities of citizenship in another country."

See also: https://travel.state.gov/content/tra...tionality.html

"U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one nationality or another. <b>A U.S. citizen may naturalize in a foreign state without any risk to his or her U.S. citizenship.</b>" [Emphasis added.]

It is true that the Oath of Allegiance to the US includes renunciation of other allegiances, but it has no legal force. The people administering the oath know that. At my naturalization ceremony the speech/admonition after the oath mostly consisted of an attempted argument for actually giving up other nationalities. I feel sure the other attendees paid as much attention to it as I did - i.e. none - and I still retain my UK citizenship.

The US may not like dual nationality, but it does not prohibit it.

Have no idea where the emoji came from, it was supposed to read "says:"

Why would it be the US government if some people have dual citizenship? If it was, bvlenci couldn't have Italian citizenship, right?

My understanding is that US doesn't recognize dual, but if you're a US citizen that acquires citizenship to another country (like through marriage) you don't automatically lose your status as a US citizen. You'd have to renounce it formally, and you'd only do that if Spain (or your desired country) demanded that you do.

Posting at the same time! What Thursday posted is what I've seen too.

It's interesting that they gave you that little speech, Thursday, when there is no legal force behind the oath. Only one of my friends has gone through the citizenship rigamarole and I know that it was a long hard road. Like 7 years, even though she's married to a US citizen, went to high school and college in the US, and has a kid with her high school sweet heart. I was really impressed that she had the dedication to do that.

I have posted the circumstances where the US allows dual citizenship above. Under my circumstances I cannot get dual citizenship. My FIL was born in Spain but my wife's entire family was born here. They would have easier access to Spanish citizenship but they must renounce their US citizenship.

This is a clear case of someone becoming an expert through gooogling and practical experience.

I thought we were talking about your SIL, not you. And I see nothing in your link disallowing dual citizenship.

In fact your link specifically says:

"Typically, no American will forfeit his or her citizenship by undertaking the responsibilities of citizenship in another country."

It's more or less a summary of Thursday's .gov source.

I am going to do some independent research again, as we looked into this before and thought it could not be done.

I have had dual citizenship since 1987 and there has never been an issue around renouncing my American citizenship. The question has never arisen. In fact, I just renewed my American passport, even though I never use it anymore. To renounce my American citizenship I would actually have to take action to do so, and I won't.

imdonehere

By all means do more research but what more do you want than the direct statement from the U.S. government and Spain as well?

Currently neither country will require you to surrender the other country's passport.

I found this on-line group call dualcitizen.com and will contact them. When I looked for reviews, whomever does these reviews said they are OK. So we shall see.

"I am going to do some independent research again" - good, I trust you will report back. And may I suggest that if your previous independent research involved a paid lawyer that you find a new one? Especially if s/he was handling your SIL's visa application.

BTW, according to Business Insider the world's most "powerful" passport is issued by Singapore:
http://www.businessinsider.sg/singap...-in-the-world/

"I found this on-line group call dualcitizen.com and will contact them"

That domain appears not to exist, at least not on my computer. And I thought you disapproved of research by "gooogle"?

You wrote: "This is a clear case of someone becoming an expert through gooogling and practical experience." Although I cannot think why you are rejecting practical experience.

Why would you think this random group is more authoritative than the US government? If you are in fact gooogling, I suggest that you look for a forum for expat US citizens living in Spain, who should have plenty of practical experience, and recommendations for lawyers.

A. Unlike others I am willing to admit there are other means.

B. It is not the final information on which I will rely upon and then pass that information along onto others and pretend that I am an expert.

C. I realize the limitations of googling. And as this has greater implications than a hotel for two nights, it is worth the effort.

C. I hope you find something else to do with your life.

Fine. My interest in assisting your SIL is now zero.

Fine. My interest in assisting your SIL is now zero.
________________
I am sure she will thoroughly dismayed.

...

In French : faites du bien a un âne il vous donnera un coup de patte.

My SIL is again moving to Madrid. She misunderstood the requirements for healthcare and thought she needed coverage that included pre-existing. She wrote the Spanish consulate in NYC and Aetna and she will get expensive coverage that will not include pre-exiting, have no deductibles or co-pays where she must pay for most existing prescriptions. She is willing to live with all those restrictions.

She now must return to the Spanish Consulate for final approval.

If she does move, we will spend about three weeks with her next spring. We have a been to Madrid many times, but we have not stayed that long since 1972. Very exciting for us as well.

We saw her this week and she was really upset, but now she is almost giddy.

IMD - Much good luck to your SIL. Please keep us apprised of her experience. And, best fun for your spring visit ! Spring in Spain is the ultimate time for a stay, as you well know.

Thank you Bedar. We have stayed in Chueca, near Plaza Santa Ana, near Atocha plus other neighborhoods, so we look forward to her choice.

I suggested east of Retiro and near Templo de Debod as they are residential areas, but we shall see. Her main requirements are an elevator, A/C, nearby a metro station, near a supermercado (or good stores) and a second bedroom. She knows she will pay dearly for the elevator and A/C.

Here is the explanation from the horse's mouth:

http://www.exteriores.gob.es/Consula...ionalidad.aspx

The following seems to be an immigration consultancy firm, so not an official source, but they clarify the situation well:

https://www.dualcitizenship.com/free...ion/spain.html

Think the elevator is the most important consideration. One can always stick in window A/C units. Then a 2nd bedroom for you !! Then a supermercado. Elevator is #1 !!

Second bedroom is an art studio/guest bedroom.

There are so many quiet side streets in Madrid but most of those buildings will not have an elevator. And she can live with ones that were put in long after the original construction that only have room for you and a pencil.