Smiling at strangers in France - is it rude?
 

I was reading Polly Platt's book on French culture, and this part seemed odd to me (I lived in Paris for six months, a couple years ago). Now, obviously you avoid meeting eyes with people on trains and on the street there - it just isn't done - but what about when talking with cashiers, meeting someone new, etc? According to her book, the French find it hypocritical to smile at someone you don't know at all. I was wondering if maybe this is something that has passed (her book was written in the 80's I think), or what?
Thanks,
-Adrienne

Is this for real? If one smiles all the time, and many people do, what should they do, frown when they run across strangers? On the other hand, I think it WOULD be pretty rude to point at a stranger and laugh. But passing a stranger with a smile on your face? You've got to be kidding.

I have read of this as well. The French apparently view constantly smiling as looking a bit idiotic or even suspicious. Why are you smiling at me - do I know you? Smiling goes with recognition of someone you know - otherwise, what is the purpose?

But it isn't &quot;rude&quot; to smile - what you need to remember is that if you smile but they don't smile back - <i>that&lt;/i. is not rude, either. It's a cultural difference.</i>

sorry for the slight error in 'punctuation'...

another misconception rearing its ugly head. The French do smile when appropiate, the same as we do.
Platt also said don't ask to use the toilet...lol I think my friends would be upset if I didn't and used the floor.

Thanks travelnut - that's a good observation. I'm going with some friends to France this summer, and when I told them about the smiling thing, they were all very worried - so I thought I'd better check and make sure it's true. Of course, they're also very worried about remembering not to put their hands in their laps at the table, and that one's more important!!

If you can behave with basic good manners, have some patience and use a few polite French phrases*, there is no need to obsess about all these 'rules'. You will get by just fine. Platt's books are very interesting for a better understanding of why things are different, but you don't need to memorize it all just to have a nice time in France for a short visit.

* s'il vous plait, merci, bonjour, au revoir - and add 'madame' or 'monsieur' to those. Ask &quot;parlez-vous anglais, s'il vous plait?&quot; before launching into English.

Travelnut - of course I understand that - I lived there before! My friends are slightly worried, so I just thought I'd clarify this before I explained to them exactly what you just said.
We are spending some time with French people in their homes, which is why we want to pay attention to the table part, but I don't consider that obsessing about rules. For the most part, a few polite French phrases should do the trick, just as you said.

Excusez-moi. Les Boche viennent et je dois trouver un drapeau blanc.

It has been over 30 years since I took that French course.

A few years ago, I met up with an American ex-pat living in Paris. I asked her what had been some of the things she found difficult about settling in to a new life in France. (She'd been living there more than 10 years by then.) Among other things, she said she had to train herself not to smile all the time. (Hard to do if you're married to a charming and attractive guy, have beautiful bi-lingual children and live in a gorgeous apartment with a view of the Eiffel Tower!) French friends had complained to her that American tourists were just always so darn smiley-face all the time. As Travelnut mentioned, the French (at least in Paris) think too much smiling makes one look simple.

All Americans do not smile all the time. If you smile at a stranger while shopping they will smile back and so will your server. One doesn't smile just to smile. That's an insecure thing.
But coast to coast, all my French friends smile when the situation calls for it.
OOOPS, Frida Kahlo now on PBS!

I am french ( but live in California ) and I think you should smile as much as you want. It will not be rude at all. Just do not talk to stangers if you listen to their conversation on a line, this would be a little &quot; strange &quot; ( but I like it here ;) )

Believe me, Americans do not smile all the time, ask the Yankee LOL
I had many a Frenchman smile at me this past visit...so this is just bunk. Ignore Polly Platt, what does she know?
LOL, Scarlett the smiley face :D

Polly Platt is making moneys writing a bunch of non sens..

I recently read an article about smiling in a news magazine and it said that Americans have at least two kinds of smiles -- one is a &quot;greeting&quot; smile, the other is a &quot;real&quot; smile of happiness, laughter, etc. The &quot;greeting&quot; smile doesn't crinkle the eyes but the &quot;real&quot; smile does. They had pictures of a model doing both. Since reading the article I've noticed just how much I use the &quot;greeting&quot; smile as a substitute for saying hi or hello. My guess is that the &quot;greeting&quot; smile is not used much in France.

Good observations.
I disagree that Platt's whole book is nonsense - there's a lot of good stuff in there that I find quite true, but yes there are a few things that don't seem right.

I too read the same thing, but in a different book that I happened to pick up and browse through while at Borders over the weekend. It was a book on French culture and basically said that the French think that Americans smile too much and that its rude to smile with false sincerity at people you don't know. My husband and I were having a good laugh at it but it sounds very similar to what abbynicole27 is saying the Polly Platt's book said.

Less smiling goes on here, I do believe. But how is a French person to know, in a passing glace, exactly what a smile on your face is all about? And therefore, why would that French person find it inappropriate? (Perhaps you are thinking, at the moment, of a wonderful passage from Proust!) You mentioned being received by French friends. This is a whole different matter. If you are welcomed into a French home you are way past little matters of formalities and on the way to being very longtime friends. It will not hurt to smile all you want!

Rubbish! I hate all these nonsense books that &quot;tell&quot; you how to behave. I tend to smile and laugh my way through situations when my French fails me and I realise how I cannot communicate easily what I want to say. I was in the gap in Paris and this sweet guy asked me in English (he heard us in the shop) if I needed help and proceeded to look for sizes. His English was worse than my French...when he pulled out a size too small and sweetly said this should fit me I explained in exhausted French that my top and bottom can fit but I am much bigger in the middle than that puny size and we both started laughing because it sounded so stupid.

Smiling to me breaks the ice when speaking with somone especially when you have language barriers. Also some people are just miserable gits and will never smile back so don't take it personally! Be yourself

Maybe our dental plans are just better than theirs. When you spend so much time in the dentist's chair, it's nice to show off the results.
((c))

<i>&quot;When you spend so much time in the dentist's chair, it's nice to show off the results.&quot;</i>

Yes, but the veneer craze in this country has completely gone bonkers. Too many Americans just can't resist the allure of &quot;perfect fake&quot; (shall we talk about this culture's pathological insecurity?). When teeth start to look like headlights on a Ford Excursion, it's time to smash those teeth in a head-on collision.

The one thing I love about living in New York City; to survive here, you must quickly learn to respect the boundaries of strangers. If you don't, you ask for trouble.

The street-savvy know never to trust the smile of a stranger. In this day and age, letting your guard down easily can surely invite danger.

Of course, one would think common sense could dictate to everyone the appropriate times to smile and make prolonged eye-contact with a stranger. Since we know the state of common sense, there goes that idea.

Respecting one's space and privacy has always been more important to me than &quot;appearing&quot; friendly. The genuinely &quot;nice&quot; people always stand out with no effort and no fanfare. In my opinion, everyone else appears false, insecure, and burdened with ulterior motives, which is no way to approach me.

Last week, while waiting for a train on a subway platform, a youngish, attractive-looking man, carrying a briefcase and tons of energy indulged in one of NYC's biggest sins: he approached me with a broad smile on his face and his hand extended to shake. He said his name was so-and-so and he was from &quot;the great State of Texas.&quot; Before he could say one more word, looking him directly in the eye, I interrupted his bursting passion with, &quot;I don't know you?&quot; He said, &quot;True.&quot; And then I said, &quot;I have no interest in knowing you.&quot; Never losing that smile, he took back his hand and said, &quot;OK,&quot; and walked away.

Within seconds, he approached a Black woman not too far from me who just arrived on the platform. She indulged him just enough to get the beginnings of a &quot;born-again Christian&quot; lecture. The last thing I remember hearing before the train came: &quot;Oh honey, I've already found Christ and I didn't have to travel to Texas.&quot; Several witnesses on the platform smiled - rare in New York, but in this case appropriate.

Oh, too much sophistry and pseudo science. Be natural, and of course smile, whenever you wish. If your heart smiles, and not everyone's does, then you may smile, and the emtion will ocme across and the recipient will feel it and perhaps smile as well. If you have to ask about smiling, you're already unnatural. And give a warm handshake with it, if needed. My, my, the issues posters fret about!

Thank you for your comments. Most of you have been very helpful, but I have to say, I am feeling a bit frustrated with some posters who constantly see a need to chide people who ask simple questions. I've had at least 3 people respond to this question (and have seen it happen elsewhere) by accusing me of obsessing or fretting.
I am not worried in the slightest - I merely wanted to ask a simple question to see if what you've observed matches up with what I was reading. It's more curiosity on my part than anything else.
So I ask - please do not make people feel stupid for asking questions!! That's what this forum is for right?
Thank you.

I'm with the French. Smiling all the time just isn't normal - no one is so constantly gleeful.

(I remember my grandmother warning me against people who smiled all the time for no reason - she said they were either con men trying to pull some sort of scam - or the village idiot - so probably even more dangerous.)

This isn't saying you need to be a grump - but I must admit I do think there's something very phoney about someone who smiles all the time.

That is ridiculous about not making eye contact. I lived in France, and people STARE and it's acceptable; not rude at all to people watch with eye contact. True, they don't smile at you when your eyes meet, but it doesn't mean you can't or that they will be offended.
When we first got there, I was a bit uncomfortable that people did not look away when our eyes met like we do in the states. But you get used to it.
Smiling is never rude in my book.

My point exactly. Be natural. If you smile inside, an outside smile will never be rejected or frowned upon. And anyway, we don't operate in one gear, thus no one smiles all the time. Be warm and civil, and respect the people you meet, and you'll know when to smile.

<i>but I must admit I do think there's something very phoney about someone who smiles all the time.</i>

Maybe they're happy. :-)

I think my face falls most naturally into a smile. Maybe it's just habit.

Grasshopper, my thoughts exactly. I smile all the time because I am happy. I don't understand how this can be phony. I grew up thinking that it was polite to smile and be friendly. I'm outgoing and often make small talk when I'm standing in lines...is this considered phony or rude as well? It takes more effort to wonder why someone is smiling than it does to simply smile back.

I read on a messageboard once (maybe it was here) that the reason Americans seem to smile so much to the French, is because they are happy since they are on vacation! It made sense to me. I don't normally see people here in my hometown with huge grins on their faces for no apparent reason.

tcreacth and grasshopper, you both restore my faith in people. Great insights!!

When I moved to Canada from Europe and people here smiled at me for no reason I thought it was weird. Like do I have buttons missing on my shirt or my skirt is up or birdpoo in my hair, or what's going on???? :)
At the same time Canadians probably thought I'm the most un-friendly depressed-looking person ever who stares all the time. :))
It is however not rude to smile at all but the French won't know what you're smiling about. Same for a large part of Europe.

Platt also says don't bring wine to dinner. That's rediculous, unless the hosts are very rich and wine snobs. They always appreciate it. Smile when it's real and feels natural- very simple. There's less smiling here in some areas than in France.
Anyway, I'm glad my life is filled with people I know who do smile, yes, even at strangers unless they're the bogeyman

NYCFoodSnob,

&quot;Yes, but the veneer craze in this country has completely gone bonkers. Too many Americans just can't resist the allure of &quot;perfect fake&quot; (shall we talk about this culture's pathological insecurity?). When teeth start to look like headlights on a Ford Excursion, it's time to smash those teeth in a head-on collision.&quot;

I read all your posts because they are informative and always enlightening. As I recall you are a professional photographer who makes their living presenting items in a &quot;perfect&quot; image. And this image is then used by your clients for advertising purposes to brainwash people into buying items they may not really need. Is that not taking advantage of &quot;insecurities&quot;?

I'm not saying the veneers are not overdone. But everything is overdone: extreme makeovers, real estate in NYC, advertising to 12 year old's designer clothes, the costs of college,etc. Our culture has established a new baseline in all these areas.

Again I always read your excellant posts. I'm shocked you've missed this irony.

Take care,

==Mike

My darling, Mike. Of course I didn't miss the irony. If you knew me away from Fodor's, you'd get my sense of humor.

This certainly is an imperfect world and, sometimes, a girl just needs to scream and shout. That's one of the reasons why I love Travel Talk. I can say things here I won't allow myself to say to someone's face. (slight pause) Aw hell, who am I kidding? Of course I'll say it to your face but only if you <i>really</i> ask for it.

FYI, I take strong issue with certain aspects of my industry and I don't hesitate to speak out (as if anybody will listen). I do my best to avoid jobs that make me uncomfortable. I've never accepted a cigarette campaign, I turned down a lucrative fashion-ad story in the 90's that wanted to use a 15-year-old model in a heroin-chic motif, and I don't shoot porn. I don't judge photographers who need to work and feed a family. I'm lucky I can entertain my proclivities and can afford to say no.

Also, I'm a master at Photoshop and I'm one of the few who does her own retouching. I maintain total control over the &quot;reality&quot; of my images. I never could enjoy the ever-popular, total-air-brushed look and I refuse to embrace it today. There's a fine-line between naturally-enhanced and downright fake and I endure the &quot;fantasy&quot; side of my business with much reservation. I prefer to err on the side of naturally-enhanced and strongly support a &quot;less is more&quot; aesthetic. Veneers look like a paint job to me and I'm apologize if you are dentist.

I admit to being a girl who loves everything in moderation, which is why I'm fairly easy-going. I believe cosmetic surgery (et al) has its place and I only get vocal when it comes to certain extremes. The day we see Michael Jackson (or anyone in that family) as looking normal, that's the day I wear a bag over my head.

NYCFoodSnob,

Well said.

One of the reasons all of us enjoy Europe is because of it's understated culture. It's lack of over the top marketing, advertising and in your face attitudes.

Hope you had a happy holiday,

==Mike

It really is unfortunate that more people here in the US who seem to have jumped on the demonizing bandwagon couldn't travel beyond the county or state line and perhaps (and that's a BIG &quot;perhaps&quot; unfortunately) realize that Europeans, particularly the French are not a bunch of terrorist-harboring anti-Americans.

And Abbynicole, I want to BE THERE on the train when the &quot;Hunk from Heaven&quot; rolls in and looks you straight in the eye..I really want to hear you SAY, &quot;Oh, this just isn't done in France...but what hotel did you say you were staying in?&quot;...

LOL intrepid - sorry, but even if you followed me around the whole time you would not see that - my fiance will be with me in France!
I'm a little confused at your &quot;terrorist-harboring anti-American&quot; comment though - I haven't seen any of that sentiment in this thread, and if there is, it certainly hasn't come from me. For one, I'm Canadian, and for two, I happen to quite like the French!

I am not American but I am certainly a smiley kind of person. My family constantly berates me for talking to people I don't know and cracking little jokes with strangers. How horrible! Having said that, I have never met a rude person in my travels in France and have had many people start conversations with me and many random act of kindness. I say, keep on smiling.

If I told you what I have seen demonstrated &amp; studied in cognitive tracking(mostly represented by eye contact) &amp; smiling combo- re cultural origin and living density etc. and what the research has quantitated- you will just flame me. So I'll try to say in &quot;psuedo-science&quot; or whatever, that there are real differences in facial expressions and their interpretation by culture, as there are in population density. Several different {Cognitive, Development, Social Psych.) disciplines do continuing studies on this-in malls, streets, etc. and on all continents. And you may have to sit there and count through films etc. (and is it boring) what scale reaction is by number- when you are getting a Psychology and/or Counseling degree- or doing advance study in Social Psychology.

And I do smile almost all the time. I happen to think being alive is great. And I am not simple or stupid. If some perceive me or any smiler to be naively &quot;open&quot; and also forceful of their personal &quot;space&quot; then that is a perception that I can't as a natural smiler do a whole lot about, other than repress unnaturally. I repress rarely. It's because I have noticed some of our faculty (college) look upon a big smile as a presumption against their respect and station. A kind of &quot;leveler&quot; that they just don't appreciate. Their socialization is one which prefers a more formally structured and within &quot;my own rules&quot; basis of commencement.

So pardon me, but I'm going to smile. It has more to do with being positive and reflecting the joy that life can encompass with a good look &quot;outward&quot; to others and not looking within to myself; closed/shut down/blocking out- blank. And if it makes me look stupid to some, or threatens their boundaries- it is really their problem. And it is a problem- because it deadens emotionally. That's why a person can be the most alone in a city of 10 million. And may be another reason why &quot;smilers&quot; need less depression meds than &quot;non-smilers&quot;. It is not because their lives are any easier, either.

I must say that Chicago is a huge city and does have a fair amount of &quot;smilers&quot; vs some large cities that do not. Those cities shall remain nameless.

Also if you are a smiler, you will have a totally different reaction to some countries you visit than if you are not a smiler- because you may realize right away if you are not the norm. And if you are a scowler, and their ARE scowlers- you will fit in much better in some cultures than in others when TRAVELING.

How many arguments have we read here on the European board about &quot;rudeness&quot; in Paris etc. Rudeness is not always overt, but a perception of a &quot;friendliness&quot; or &quot;subservance&quot; scale in relation to your own norms. So just facial expression alone may be setting off &quot;rude&quot; behavior perception in return with different style travelers.

From the times I have been to France- especially Paris, I did feel that my smile was looked upon as stupidity several times before real acquaintance occurred.

Think of a spectrum:

Smiles that are natural are usually reciprocated in:

Ireland
Italy
United States

Smiles, per se, are puzzling in

France
Germany

Smiles might start a riot in:

Switzerland.

I know these are broad generalizations. Be yourself, try and use the local language and you will do fine.

Anthony