Seat wars or how many seats can two people control?
 

My daughter and I just returned to the US on Sunday and had an interesting flight home. We arrived at CDG about an hour and forty five minutes ahead of time and when we went to check in we were told our seats were reassigned and we were now on a waiting list....hmmmmm. But we were eventually put on the flight in different seats but near our formerly assigned ones. The seats are configured ABC EFG IJL. In our former seats are sitting a large woman (ailse seat), then her husband in the window seat and another woman is standing in the aisle who evidently cannot pass the other woman to get into the middle seat. My daughter is seated in front of the large woman - I am seated across the aisle, and two other people are in the window and middle seats in front of the couple. The flight attendents eventually find another seat for the standing woman tho the plane is quite full so now husband and wife have the middle seat empty. When we get up in the air my daughter attmepts to lean back her seat and the woman promptly informs her she will not be doing that. Daughter politely suggests that the woman recline her seat then they might both be comfortable - but no woman will not/can not - she is in too much pain. Couple seated by my daughter take pity on her and let her have the window seat (daughter REALLY wants to sleep - tired from too much fun with mom!) Daughter tries to lean back window seat but feels strong resistence from other side. She tries harder and is promptly informed that now the husband will be uncomfortable so no go to that either. He says his legs are too long - does she expect him to put them out the window (he does by the way have an empty seat by him where just perhaps he could stretch them). Daughter has now had it, jams seat back, man calls crew, they inform him daughter does have the right to recline her seat. He demands they call the captain, crew reiterates daughter can put seat back. Man now wants crew to call security at the airport and the police so he can report daughter for harassaing him. Crew reponds he will have to make that call. As the flight progress woman complains that daughter and others seated in that row are moving too much - are they children! In all this uproar couple mentions they travel all the time - I wonder... are they always so effective at contolling six airplane seats and paying for two (middle seat in front of them could also not be reclined as woman and painful knee spilling into that area). I guess it was good? I slept thru alot of this or it would have been very hard for me not to respond a tad harshly. By the time I awoke daughter was cringing by the window afraid she would be met by the police when we landed despite my attempts to tell he no way that could happen. Anyway I'd say it was quite a performance and if the couple truly travels frequently may none of my Fodor's friends have the "pleasure" of being seated near them. It just seems to me if they cannot be comfortably seated in coach without having to control six seats - they need to buy business class seats!

Unbelievable story. I applaud your daughter for not calling the police on them!

Hi sue,

For some reason (I don't know why) it takes all kinds to make a world.

I find that when I get those sorts of people near me that
a. I have to drink a lot
b. I have to go to the toilet a lot
c. The flight gets very bumpy (although I seem to be the only one to notice)
d. I get very clumsy and spill water on people.

It's quite embarassing to me when that happens.

((I))

This sounds like something that would happen to me. LOL

I had some little jerk on one flight decide that he was going to stand up just as I wanted to watch the movie. I ask the guy nicely and ploitely to not stand directly in front of me since I wanted to watch the movie.

He told me to shut the bleep up.X-(

I then told him that he had 5 seconds to sit his .... down or I was gonna hurt him :))

He sat down ;)

What a lovely couple. I bet they have lots of friends.

I am sorry your daughter had to go through that - and glad you were able to sleep through it!

I'm sorry that happened to your daughter and I too applaud her for sticking up for herself. Unfortunately its people like that that can make a long flight miserable.

Tracy

And I thought being crammed into the window seat next to two people who slept the entire flight so that I could never go the bathroom was bad. ;)

Sorry your daughter had to endure such nastiness, suec1. Hopefully her next trip over the pond will be more pleasant. Heck, with not having to deal with that scenario it'll probably be divine. :)

It is amazing to me what a sense of entitlement and control some people have.
Imagine what that awful couple told THEIR friends about the flight.

Why can't airlines put a notice in the seatback compartments (along with safety info etc) about common courtesies? Such as not putting your seat back while food is served, and accepting that people put their seat back after food service is over, so that they can get some sleep.
My husband is quite tall, so when the person in front of him put his seat down immediately after takeoff, he did the same, otherwise he would have had hardly any space. Then the person behind him complained about this (to the flight attendant). My husband said he would straighten his seat if the person in front of him did so too. So the stewardess went around asking everyone to put their seats up.
What a waste of time for her.

Suec1; I do hope that airlines keep track of names of people like that. Those people should be banned from flying if they behave like that all the time.

And I would gladly pay more for more legroom. Only, on our last flight to the USA, the additional cost would have been about 3500 Euros. Times 4 people flying. I wish all airlines had the option of a class in between business and economy.

Many sympathies Suec1. I have found it amazing how this "recline" issue comes up on a lot of the transatlantic flights that I am on. I have seen the crew be either useless or completely direct. Everyone gets to put their seat back. Period. I wish more travellers would just expect it and not make it some kind of p333ing match. Geez, it's only 9 hours max. Shut up and go to sleep! Tell your daughter that she did nothing wrong and there are horrible people everywhere, and they're worse on airplanes. Better luck next time.

Tallulah: I do fly in a separate compartment, it's called Business Class. I will say when I don't get Business Class, I will get 2 seats. When my daughter takes long trips with her children she also is in a separate compartment. Short flights they fly tourist.

I wonder why we even try to reserve certain seats. I don't know how many times I've carefully reserved certain seats for family cohesiveness and to protect others from our children, so to speak, only to find the reservations redistributed when we load....

Hi SueC1,

WHAT a fiasco. People never cease to amaze me. Quite sorry.

And although I am sure it is difficult for some when the seats are back, like Wills stated, they may recline, always, end of story.

On a lonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnng flight back from Maui once we were in the last row of the plane, that lovely little row that does not recline. Well let me just tell ya, after the seat backs in front of us were reclined it was QUITE the cozy little aisle, LOL and then a 'substance' that was never identified started leaking on us from the overhead bin. My husband and I are the types that we just looked at each other, rolled our eyes and started laughing.

You have a drink, close your eyes, put your headphones on, pray the plane arrives safely, and you suck it up or you purchase a business or first class ticket, have a free drink, and pray the plane arrives safely.

That's the deal.

%%- %%- %%- %%- %%- Wishing everyone about to embark on their next journey luck, love and laughter when you need it most!

:S- Tiff

I dunno, I see this in a couple of different ways. The reclinee feels they have a right and so does the person whose space is being infringed upon. Too bad people just can't talk to one another - so much would be resolved. Instead we make assumptions. Woman was large = it's her problem. Hubby had bad/sore knees = it's his problem. Daughter wanted sleep = she's an angel. Why not just speak directly to the couple and see if thing couldn't be ironed out? And without the aide of flight attendants who really are either limited in their capacity or simply do not care?

Because of all these "wars", if I choose to sleep or recline, I always ask the person if they would mind. I've never had any one refuse and they've always been pleased I've had the courtesy to ask.

And not everyone can recline their seats! I was in the last row of a very crowded flight from LAX to New Orleans a couple of years ago. The last seats do not recline. Yet all the people in the row in front of us (all three seats were taken, so no where to move) reclined, leaving us squeezed and extremely uncomfortable for the 4 hours in the air. Plus, it was a day flight, so could not really sleep. However, I did manage to use the restroom quite a few times, and each time I did, I made certain I pulled extra hard on the seat in front of me to pull me up. Got a few dirty looks from the guy in front of me, but hey! What else to do with an inconsiderate slob!

The complaints should all be directed to the airlines, I've been saying this for years. It is the airlines who configure the seats when they order the aircraft, it is the airlines who allow seats to recline X degrees, it is the airlines who force anyone over medium height into uncomfortable positions for hours at a time, and then say, 'if you want more comfort pay for business class.' Shouldn't moderate comfort be a given? If we all could afford business class all the time we'd pay for it, but for most travelers it's out of the question.

It isn't reasonable to have seats reclining to X degrees and expect everyone in your section not to use that to the max. It might be considerate, but it's not likely you'll get people to agree.

I for one would forego the terrible food (I often bring my own non-smelly sandwich anyway) and I'd pay a few bucks more, for more comfort. The airports and coach sections in airplanes are pretty much promoting a bus mentality anyway, I've been on many a bus that has had more comfort.

suec1, I meant to ask:
was any explanation offered as to why your seats were reassigned?

``I made certain I pulled extra hard on the seat in front of me''

If you did this without asking the person in front to pull up a bitthan you -- not he -- are the inconsiderate (and passive aggressive) slob.

If his seat had a recline button, that person has every right to use it. As Elaine said, it's a seat configuration thing that is determined and set up by the airline and you're misdirecting your extra hard pulls.

Thre are plenty of ways to avoid this, 1) fly business or first is the surest, care when booking seats also works, 2) pre-book decent seats, 3) if you get bad seats or no seats, get to the gate early, 4) ask for a change when onboard, 5) politely ask the person to pull up.

Only then do you have the right to start getting physical.

While it's very nice that you ask before you recline (something I usually do do these days), expecting this to become a ``common'' courtesy is a bit much. Until it is, pulling on another's seat back is the escalation of a usually benign situation.

Good point Elaine.

Also, I will add that there have been many times when I have just reclined "a little" if I noticed that it may bring discomfort to someone else.

You always get that little thank you smile from the person behind you!

The main problem was the reassigned seats...that is scary. Makes one wonder if the large women requested an extra seat next to her,,didn't know they could do that. However, I am wondering now if the airlines do cater to overweight and long legged people at the expense of others.
As far as reclining seats...NO ONE behind like to have the seat in front of them reclining, but that is the persons right. YEARS AGO the seats REALLY reclined far back and that caused some uneasy situations with passengers. The airlines have alieviated some of that with not having the seats go so far back. I usually kindly ask the person in front if they would please upright their seat JUST during food service, and it usually works out fine. Then I just accept the reclining seat the rest of the time.
Recently I was visiting across the aisle (before takeoff) to a lady I had met before boarding...(she was aisle seat of the 5 in the middle of plane, and a man was on the other end seat with 3 seats between them). The flight attendant checked her boarding pass, which was correct, but asked if she would move up a couple of aisles next to a lady on the 2 seat side. She said a family was coming for those 3 center seats. The "family"
never came, but a TALL 6ft 4 young man appeared and took the lady's seat , so he had 2 or 3 seats to himself the whole
flight. I heard he had refused to board until he was promised an extra seat for "leg room".) (the consulation is that not long into the flight some lady from another seat on the plane settled herself into the center seat of that aisle of 5, covered herself with a blanket, stayed there, ...so the long legged man only had TWO seats, instead of 3!!!)
It all baffles me, but I guess the airlines try to accommodate everyone.

HOWEVER< the lady who fussed about the reclining seats, suec1, was being completely unreasonable! She should KNOW THAT if she travels much. They can't expect people to sit up poker straight on a 6 to 10 hour flight.(and I'll BET SHE reclined HER seat)
I'm glad that doesn't happen too often, and sounds like you and your daughter really got a bad rap on that flight!
Time to step off my soapbox.
Should we ALL be aware and question things if they say our seats have been'"reassigned"?

Well <b>elaine</b>, maybe you are willing to pay a little extra but as the very recent AA experiment with More Room Throughout Coach proved, most people are not. AA is putting seats back in at this very moment. AA wasn't the first to fail with this experiment. At least AA can afford to re-configure their planes to the industry standards. There were few startups that never had a chance to do that once they realized that extra space offered for almost the same $ or maybe a little more wasn't working. Unfortunately most travelers are willing to be stacked up on top of each other as long as the fares are cheap. I call it the &quot;Wal-mart mentality&quot;. As long as it's cheap, they are happy, regardless of the quality.

&quot;Thre are plenty of ways to avoid this, 1) fly business or first is the surest, care when booking seats also works,&quot;

Yes, Business or First class would be wonderful, wouldn't it? But there are those of us in the real world who cannot afford this. Ya know?


&quot;2) pre-book decent seats,&quot;

Nice also, but when I called to make arrangements, I was told to get seat assignments when I arrived.

&quot;3) if you get bad seats or no seats, get to the gate early,&quot;

This was the second leg of a flight, and the flight was already booked solid. And we had gotten to the gate at the first leg of the flight more than 2 hours early. Flight was already full.

&quot;4) ask for a change when onboard,&quot;

See above. There was no place to move us. Except to First Class, which was prohibitive based on expenses.

&quot;5) politely ask the person to pull up.&quot;

When he first reclined, I did ask if he coule ease up just a bit (once I figured out I couldn't recline). His response was that it was his seat, and I should just recline my own seat. When the person at the window seat had to get out to use the restroom, we ask the row to move their seats up so this person could exit. Only the person in the window seat ahead of us agreed.

So, yeah. I felt justified.

Let it go! Life is too short to re-hash
bad experiences. Go take a brisk walk or hit a punching bag if you still need to release pent up anger!

Anybody know where to get the best deals on business class seats?

Hi degas!!! Good to hear from you. Take good care.

But why do airlines charge these outrageous business class fares for some flights? On a recent trip from Amsterdam to JFK, economy was 550 euros, business on the same flight 3900 euros. I would have been very willing to pay double the economy fare, even triple, for extra room, but this is just ridiculous for a 7 hour flight. And KLM has no 'in-between' class, as some airlines like Virgin do.

By the way, can you imagine being the one person sitting in the middle seat between those passengers on suec1's flight? Since they do not ask you how much you weigh when you book a flight, they could have booked up all the seats. Or do they then leave behind one passenger since the fat people needed three seats? Or do the fat people actually buy three seats? Somehow, I don't think so.

Good for your daughter for not giving up despite the bad-mannered traveler's threats!

&quot;c. The flight gets very bumpy (although I seem to be the only one to notice)
d. I get very clumsy and spill water on people.&quot;

I'm going to add that one to my repertoire, Ira!! =D&gt;

<b>Tulips</b>,

The business fares are not outrageous. You are just comparing apples and oranges. You can't compare a very restricted, non-refundable, deeply discounted economy fare to a full business fare. There are some people that probably paid (on their own or their employer) around $1500 for a full fare, unrestricted, fully refundable, no advance purchase <b>economy</b> fare and may have sat right next to you. The difference was that, if their plans changed, they needed the flexibility of the full fare economy ticket. So, if you look at it this way, the business class fare is only double or little more than the economy fare.

On the one hand, I sympathize with large people, whose dimensions ensure that already tight economy seating will be truly uncomfortable. On the other hand, this kind of behaviour isn't specific to large people. These people can't have been very experienced flyers - why else would the man actually believe that the captain would involve himself in such a trivial matter.

Suec1, I suggest you encourage your daughter to feel sorry for these people, rather than angry at them or afraid of them. Life must be truly stressful for people who are this fragile and inept at coping with discomfort. Enduring a bully for a few hours is nasty, but coping with a bully who lives inside oneself must be difficult indeed.

My husband is 6'5&quot; and cannot put his feet on the floor in front of him but he has never denied the person in front of him the right to recline. I'm so sorry for your daughter. It can be hell on flights over 3 hours w/ unbearable people nearby.

To Elaine - the seat re-assignment was just Act 1 of a several act play entitiled the flight from (almost) hell. We were flying Air France as a Delta code share flight (we bought our tickest thru Delta). We got to the airport about an hour and forty five minutes ahead of time (slight subway snafu made us a little later than the 2 hour window) There was a whole group of us that were told we were now wait listed, different reasons were given but it seemed to be that Air France was pushing aside the Delta passengers. Needless to say there was ALOT of buzzing while we waited to see if we would be on the flight (it was the last flight out) but in the end we all got on but in different seats than previoudsly assigned. My daughter now swears she will NEVER fly Air France again but I like the Air France flight because 1)free liquor...2)late flight out - 4:55 - can eat lunch if Paris! ....3)free liquor... 4)individual video screens and did I mention.... 5) free liquor. (Do you think the free liquor was why I was sleeping during most of the seat wars?) However after almost being bumped for a reason we could never figure out I don't know if we will fly Air France again. I might not have minded another night in Paris and vouchers but daughter was really ready to get home. So the end of our trip was a little frustrating but rest assured it will will not deter us from going again as soon as we can!

Speaking of AA, it has been my experience so far that AA's coach seating on transatlantic flights has been noticeably more comfortable than many other airlines.

I've only flown first class once in my life, and (thankfully) that was to Seoul. I'll be flying business class to Israel in a few weeks--I'm very grateful for this gift, since it's a 12 hour flight from JFK.
I know a lot of people who use their frequent flyer points to get seat upgrades, but I've never done that. For one, it seems you can't always get the seats, and for another thing, I'm so greedy that I'd rather use the points for another whole ticket so I can travel more.

I did read somewhere recently about a device that prevents the person if front of you from reclining too far back. You somehow wedge into the back of their seat where your tray is, I think it is not then visible, and then they can recline only so far. I'm not advocating it, just mentioning it.

Bravo for your daughter who did not give in to these people.
I agree that if your able to recline the seats it's up to you. I give the person nod at the person behind me and give them some warning but I've never noticed being inconvienced when the person ahead of me reclines. After all we aren't talking about a lot of room anyway.
Mari5 - good question about the airlines catering to large people at the expense of others. I think that could turn into a whole other (very heated) thread.

Last year I spent 3 hours being crammed into 'part' of my seat by the overflow of the person next to me.

Not wanting to cause an embarassing scene, I waited until I got home to complain. I was given a credit against a future trip.

On another trip I had the same thin happen. Prior to take-off, I politely excused myself and went to the back of the plane where I informed the flight attendant of the problem.

She began to tell me there wasn't much she could do. I told her it was the responsibility of the airline to ensure that I had access to my complete seat without having to suffer overflow from the next seat.

She call someone at the front and in a couple of minutes I was reassigned to another seat. Not sure what would have happened if the plane was full.

Do I dig in and make sure there's no overflow?

I think the key in all these situations is:

Start out polite but firm about your rights

If necesary be adamant

If pushed - go the Ira route (I love the bumpy flight/drink idea)

As a last resort - take names!

What - or who - activates some of these choices - and the actions of the TAs is always a mystery to me. but my attitude is if they are completely unreasonalbe - I will be too.

I'm fairly tall and have long legs - so middle seats are very uncomfy for me - so I'm always careful to book aisle. On a flight out of Dallas a TA on Continental tried to force me out of my (long-reserved) aisle seat into a middle seat because a &quot;very important&quot; person needed the seat. When I pointed out that a very important person would have their own plane - or at minimum be in first class she was very huffy - and threatened me she would tell the captain if I was uncooperative. I said tell whoever she wanted - I had the boarding pass and the seat and was not moving.

Another TA - claiming to be the cabin chief - then came back and said I had to give up the seat since he was a VP - I told her I was too - and still not moving. Eventually they gave up - but grumbled at me the whole flight. A third TA came by later and said there was no reason for me to move - the &quot;important&quot; passenger was just the boyfriend of one of the other TAs.

Isn't it amazing what people try to get away with?

I am so impressed with the way your daughter handled everything, bless her heart!
I love the way ira deals with things, I will try to be more like him myself :)
Thanks for posting this, it was very interesting along with the responses!

TULIPS: Yes, some fat people do pay for an extra seat.

Reply to suec1. My husband &amp; I had the worst experience w/ Air France. Never again will we fly them. And we were in business class. First they tried to tell us we were in coach. Then they told us that we would make the connection, which my brother, a commercial pilot said that they know when they will miss a connection. They then put us up in a crappy hotel (one towel in bathroom and we never got more even though we asked) 30mins from Paris and the hotel charged us for a meal for our child (who was 3 and had his own ticket). And they told us we were lucky to be staying in that hotel.

This is a very interesting thread, and I think it also demonstrates how far airlines have slipped back to their &quot;don't know/don't care&quot; pre-9/11 mode. People like those you described, suec1, who infringe on the rights of everyone around them should have been booted off that plane. A couple of years ago, I witnessed two women who brought a huge vase of roses aboard insist that the roses stand on the floor. The flight attendant insisted that the flowers be stored in an overhead bin. Guess who won? The two women were escorted off the plane by airport security!

Leona, thanks for sharing a story with a happy ending! ;)

It's unfortunate that United Airlines doesn't let ordinary folk willing to pay the extra fly in economy plus; that privilege is reserved for--I think--Platinum frequent flyers. I'd be perfectly happy to pay extra, but it's not an option.