neither pikey nor fop - penniless army brat.

Make that penniless, computer illiterate army brat.

The Audere/Neo/Walkin spat demonstrates a number of rules about visiting England. Above all the rule of language.

When confronted with most foreign accents, the English (and I do mean English: the rules are different about this in the smaller UK provinces) speak International English. When speaking among themselves, the English speak Banter. They also speak this language to the other Banter-speaking nationalities: the Irish and the Australians (and therefore to the Kiwis who don't all speak Banter and sometimes to South Africans because all Southern Hemisphereans can sound alike, but South Africa absolutely isn't a Banterstan, so speaking Banter to them really, really pisses them off).

In Banter "only Yanks go to Rules" is perfectly true. It means, in International English, that Yanks of all nationalities go there (including Russian kleptocrats and Arab princelings), and that there may be the odd British person there out of curiosity, but that's irrelevant. All Banter speakers understand perfectly what "only Yanks go to Rules" means

Banter doesn't allow nit-picking pedantries. If a visitor is greeted in Banter ("terrible weather, isn't it" when it's 6 degrees Centigrade), the visitor must not dispute the facts or the conclusion. He must reply in Banter. "Isn't it?" is an appropriate reply in almost all cases.

Banter has clear rules:

1. Being addressed in Banter (even in a written environment) is a compliment. Try to reply in the same language, but above all don't break Banter rules.
2. The biggest howler you can commit in Banter is taking anything seriously. Anything at all. One of the reasons Rules is only for Yanks is that not only is it out of synch with what people want these days, but it takes itself seriously. Than which nothing is more unEnglish.
3. The second biggest howler in Banter is giving excessive or unnecessary compliments. Any compliment beyond "that's nice, isn't it" is fulsome gushing. The giver of such a compliment is showing serious psychological flaws, as well as crass insensitivity to the person she's (usually it IS she, since some American men kind of get Banter sometimes) addressing.
4. The only correct response in Banter to a compliment, however restrained, is to denigrate the thing complimented. If that's not the custom in your country, serves you right for behaving insensitively. If you've recently read an airport self-help paperback that tells you you ought to accept compliments equally gushingly, it's crude propaganda for foul foreign habits.
5. Try writing down all the Rules of Banter, and it'd take as long as the rules of Mornington Crescent and some of us have got remunerative jobs we ought to be spending more time on.
But underlying them all: it's our private language, if you've been included it's because we're being nice to you, and if in doubt remember Rule 2.

I love a good banter. Nice one Flanner ;-)

It may sound like a joke but everything he said is true.

I guess those Boston tea Party guys didn't understand "Banter" either.

After those Boston blokes had done their stuff, other people came and dredged up the tea, dried it and put it into little bags.
The supply has still not dried up as anyway who has been rash enough to order tea in the USA well knows.

Japanese tourists and steak and kidney pud are nothing compared to a group of Japanese tourists trying to tackle a cream tea.

It's not just a rule for England and it's a bit ironic because we are not as religious as Americans, but please would you try to be respectful in Churches and Cathedrals.

Rules is good -- all this stuff about 'cutting edge' or 'old-fashioned' or the age of the customers is irrelevant. Who cares if it tastes good?

I'm an American living in England, married to a Cockney who grew up in the East End of London, so none of these public school hangups apply to us. Also, formal and informal styles are both fine with us.

Now, I'm not saying Rules is the last word in gourmet cooking -- it's not. We've had better and more interesting food, mostly in France and Italy. But Rules is still good, damnit!

I don't know what the complaints about the service are about, either -- it's good "French" service, very efficient and moderately friendly. OK, not jovial.

And the prices aren't bad either -- we can't afford Gordon Ramsay!

Don't forget, in Banter, almost anything can mean the opposite of the words spoken. Thus "That's nice, isn't it?" can, depending on the tone of voice, mean any of:

"I'd kill for one of those, but some nice person standing next to me is going to buy me one, aren't they"
OR
"I've seen better, but at least it's not raining"
OR
"You have just mortally insulted me, but I'll overlook it on this occasion"
OR
"Your child may be an overlooked genius, but some children can be over-encouraged, you know"
OR
"Why am I always expected to do the mucky jobs around this house?"
OR - well, what it says.

Well done on the Banter Flanner. I miss a good banter. Living in Brussels I don't even speak English any more but a type of Euro English most of which makes little sense. When I do encounter a native speaker - I become a bantering idiot.

By the by - "Traditional Hand Raised Pie of the Day" - how does one hand raise a pie?

It may be true, as Flanner says, that "Banter doesn't allow nit-picking pedantries", but if everyone on this message board were to give up nit-picking pedantries it would be a much less entertaining place. Fortunately I have no fears of it actually happening. Especially since the most accomplished practitioners of the two forms of speech appear to be the same people.

Carry on.

Hi law,

>"Traditional Hand Raised Pie of the Day" - how does one hand raise a pie?<

It's similar to growing an economy.

((I))

>how does one hand raise a pie?<

You feed it gently from a dropper until it's large enough to open its eyes and look adoringly at you. At which point it becomes a sweetie-pie.

More prosaically, it's probably a pie made with hot-water pastry rather than shortcrust, where you build-up or raise the case with your hands instead of rolling it out or using a machine to mould it.

Alternatively, put pie on one hand. Raise to mouth.

"I don't know what the complaints about the service are about, either -- it's good "French" service, very efficient and moderately friendly."

Don't you see, mjsilver? You've answered your own question. The "modern" Brit will do anything to avoid old-fashioned, including good service. He would much rather go to some place and be ignored by the wait staff or treated as if he didn't belong there or wait in line to eat because it's this week's "hot" place to go, than to endure anything as old fashioned and common as "good and efficient" service. Why go to a place that hires career waiters who as stated above "take themselves too seriously" (GASP) when you can go to a "modern British" cuisine place that hires wannabee actors who are much prettier to look at and don't take their job seriously? That sort of thing was for grandfathers and old law clerks.

Plus you've used the F word to discribe the service anyway -- where it's almost as forbidden as using that same F word to describe food. Now that England has moved past the boiled meat and potatoes custom, it is as if THEY invented fine cuisine -- it certainly didn't come from across the channel. Our posters have made it clear. What USED to be really British must now be ignored, abandoned, discredited altogether in fact, in favor of pretending it never existed or it was all so bad we must now forget about it completely.

I really do get it now.

Who says yanks can't do irony?

We all knew they couldn't do banter, but the irony is news to me.

>>>>
The "modern" Brit will do anything to avoid old-fashioned, including good service.
>>>>>

food service was good in the days of old britain?? oh dear, you have a lot to learn.

nobody said rules was bad (ok, audere sort of did, but i don't think he meant that the food was really bad). the main point is that it's museum food. in fact, the whole place is a museum. it's a cariciture of britishness. there is nothing wrong with museum food (we all eat it to some degree when we visit somewhere). but one must realise that it IS museum food that is not really consumed to a large degree by normal people.

i'm happy that Rules exists. we need to preserve things and it's a good place to bring guests from other lands who might get a kick out of eating 'typical british food' and being hit over the head with their preconceived, stereotyped idea of 'britishness'. tourists don't want to see real britain, they want to be waited on by jeeves the butler and they want to eat food with quaint names like toad-in the-hole. if you want your simple guests to say "Ohhh my gawd, this is soooo british!!!" take them to rules.

and just a simple, quick apology post might just help to get this thread to 100+ posts.

An oldie - but I can't resist
----------------------------

Yesterday, Jay Fullmer, 38, became the first American to get to grips with the concept of irony.

"It was weird," Fullmer says. "I was in London and, like, talking to this guy and it was raining and he pulled a face and said "Great weather, eh?" and I thought "Wait a minute, no way is it great weather!"

Fullmer then realised that the other man's mistake was, in fact, deliberate. Fullmer, who is married with two children, aged eight and three, plans to use irony himself in the future.

"I'm using it all the time," he says. "Last weekend I was grilling steaks. I burned them to a crisp and said "Hey, great weather!"

I've a dreadful headache right now, sorry.

As far as Americans & irony go, please see the 2000 American Presidential Election for details.

BC