Returned from Paris with toddler, some observations
 

In Paris for a few days ending a week ago Monday. Took our 2.5 year old. Despite comments on this board, there were children everywhere we went. Granted, we only ate in neighborhood brasseries or cafes (not super fancy restaurants), but we saw lots of children in and around the restaurants and sites we visited. Interestingly, many of the families we came across spoke French and, I am guessing, were themselves tourists (possibly visiting from other areas of France). Another misconception: Clothing varied from person to person (whether French or not). Yes, some locals wore black, but despite opinions on this forum, jeans (often tight and often with faded patterns) were quite common. Shoes varied dramatically. Soccer-type tennis shoes were quite common. I'll be happy to answer questions. . .

A friend of mine who lives in London thinks Paris is a great city for kids (unlike London). The French attitude toward kids is remarkable - kids go to restaurants and museums and are expected to behave well. She found that Londoners rarely take their kids out to dinner and have actually been turned away at restaurants in London! the wait staff in Paris restaurants went out of their way to make their daughter (age 3) comfortable and welcome.<BR><BR>Just relaying her observation, and not intended to start a row.

Many London pubs are not licensed for minors, so would have to turn away a family with kids.

Dear Trying: I'm interested in the "Despite comments on this board, there were children everywhere we went...". <BR><BR>I think I would have noticed if there had been a lot of statements on this forum that there are no children in Paris. After all, the French, not just Americans, have families, too. <BR><BR>I think what has been stated is don't go to Paris and expect "Happy Meals" at a Michelin 1 star.

Forgot to add with last post..."and our family witnessed an American mother asking for a children's menu at Jules Verne."

I liked the title of this post. It sounds like someone kidnapped a toddler in Paris. (Fodorites will do anything for a special souvenir). :)

...and I'm intrigued that "trying" found it "interesting" that many of the families she encountered while in France spoke French.<BR><BR>Does she perhaps confuse Paris with Disney World?<BR><BR>

Lighten up, xxx, she was just trying to make the point that the people she spoke to were't tourists from outside France. Was that too subtle for you?

Oh, I know what her point was. I can't believe she is astounded that French people like to visit sites in their country, too.<BR><BR>She must be bowled over whenever she meets fellow Americans at the Jersey shore.

Humorous comments. I particularly like the souvenir comment. Amy and xxx, if you had read the comments on this forum regarding travel with children you would know that there are many people on this forum who suggest that children are not welcome in Europe (as if, as you noted, they don't have children in Europe!). Considering all such comments made on this forum, I was just particularly surprised at the number of tourists I saw with children and, yes, it should be a no-brainer, but a number of the tourists families were French. I was trying to correct a misconception, widely held on this forum, that children are not taken out in public or welcome in public in Europe (at least Paris). Perhaps my comments were poorly written.

Trying: Having read a lot of the travel with children "debates" (and that is putting it nicely), I understood your comments. They were not poorly written, just poorly understood. Yes, there are children in Paris and I hope you and yours had fun.

I thought your post was fairly clear and interesting "trying," but I have read lots of the posts on traveling with children and was very familiar with the opinions referred to in your post. I have a three year old and would love to take her to Paris soon. I think she would really like it, but I am waiting until she is ready for such a long flight (an active child).

I would be very interested to hear what you did in Paris and what experiences you had when doing them with your child.

Dan: We obviously knew that our son would not "appreciate" the fine art and architecture, but we wanted him with us as we did our best to appreciate it. What our son liked (of course) was certain aspects of the physical environment: any open space such as around the Louvre and the Notre Dame was a good place to run. Right now he is into animals and enjoyed chasing the pigeons. He also enjoyed riding the "trains" (RER, Metro and Eurostar) and the boat we took on the Seine. He didn't appreciate the Louvre, per se, but we didn't expect him to. Though he enjoyed some of the commotion and all of the escalators! He really liked the excavation in front of the Notre Dame (lots to see at his level and buttons to push). He liked (a little too much when he saw some toys) a street market on the Rue cler. He liked seeing the "big buildings". He didn't like cobblestone, but did kind of like the Invalides with its displays (and horses). He did ok with the food. Croque monsiuer (sp?) and different salads were not too foreign to hime. We even found a hotdog for him at a baguette sandwich stand. We were only in Paris for 3 days, but for a longer trip we would have gone to some of the children-oriented museums. And he always likes exploring new hotel rooms. We had fun and so did he, even if sometimes on different levels.

Having traveled in Europe many times with my children, I can say that France is by far the most kid-friendly country.<BR>Just don't ask for a children menu. There is no such a thing. Most restaurants will be glad to prepare a "demie-portion" (half serving) of just about anything on the menu.

Children's menus are, in my opinion, a stupid thing in any case. They're generally a list of nasty foods that you wouldn't want to eat, so why would you want to give them to your children? Restaurants (even relatively nice restaurants, both here and in France) are generally happy to prepare kid-suitable food without resorting to "chicken fingers and fries". Pasta or rice, some broiled chicken or fish, vegetables if they'll eat them. Half portions also work well, so long as the food is not overly spiced or exotic (though we encourage our kids to branch out along these lines as well). <BR><BR>I often order this sort of thing for my kids even in restaurants that DO have kids menus (though we generally avoid the sorts of restaurants that rely on that sort of food anyway).

In my opinion, while France is okay about children (and dogs!) the absolute most child-friendly country would have to be Italy...they are downright gaga for children, especially babies. You almost have to fight them off sometimes!

The French regard taking your children to a restaurant as an essential learning experience. Just as, say Americans, consider teaching their children how to shoot a gun. The French know that the politics of eating and ordering wine are just as effective as a gun.<BR>

I'm not a big fan of "kids'menus," nor our my kids, but it's inaccurate to say that there is no such thing in France. Menus enfants are everywhere that we've traveled in France in the past 15 years since we've had kids, and that includes Paris. It's almost invariably a choice of hamburger and fries, slice of ham and fries, or spaghettis bolognaise, a drink and a scoop of ice cream or sherbet. In the Dordogne, it's more likely to be a confit de poulet, but that's about the only exception I've witnessed.

I have found it interesting reading all the comments regarding children in Paris. I will be travelling there in September with my 3 and a half year old grandaughter. In her short life she has already had three trips to NZ and Australia and long distance travel is not a problem. My question is that when in Paris we intend to do a lot of walking and I would be interested to know if a jogging stroller would be too big and cumbersome on the streets. Also what is the situation regarding strollers in museums and the ease of use on the Metro. I have accessed the Louvre website and many other specific website but can not find any information about strollers in these places.

Nolene: I've traveled recently with a jogging stroller and they really don't handle well. I'm sure they'd work great on the rough cobblestones, etc., but a jogging stroller would be such a hassle in a museum, any kind of a line, the Metro, etc. I think you'd be better off taking a high-quality umbrella stroller, such as the McLaren or Peg Peregro.

Monica. Thanks for your response. Luckily I also have a Peg Perego stroller so that is what I will take with me. Looking forward to wearing the soles out of my shoes.

I know it's not politically correct, but I try to avoid places likely to be populated by children (they might be the best, most perfect creatures when they are your own, but otherwise they are basically a social nuisance with their screams and bulky strollers). So I am quite sensitive to that issue, albeit in the opposite way as most posters ! To get to my point, as a Frenchman living in London, I must admit I very much appreciate the English approach of not imposing their offspring on any social/public occasion. Actually, to be honest, I wonder where Londoners hide their kids ! Streets, trains, seem to be devoid of them (not that I am complaining... ). On the other hand, when I come back to France, I am shocked by this post-Petainist attitute of ours, meaning that families are good (as a matter of fact, a political bias reflected in our tax and welfare systems) leading to kids being aggressively paraded around by their parents as if they were war medals ! Therefore screaming brats are on the loose, especially on restaurants, trains,etc. <BR><BR>OK, now I am waiting to be crucified by the family brigade...

My question is only this, how does a child learn how to behave in those envirionments if they are never exposed to it ? One should be more accepting of parents essentially trying to teach their children. I would much rather deal w/traveled children than those who have been kept locked in their houses w/no social interaction. I am guessing you are childless ? Try it & let me know your opinion then. Otherwise this is merely a post of ignorance which does no one any good. Certainly I agree that there are places that are ill-equipped to handle children & that is fine. But, for the most part, where I go so does my child.

We live in a culture that finds it acceptable to drag their kids around everywhere. Not bashing working women but not too many years ago, when not most women worked, kids stayed home and were kids. They played and used their imaginations all day long. Nowadays, kids are treated to vacations, and not a few days at the beach. Not sure why a kid needs a vacation, but??? They watch way too much tv, get no physical activity and are pampered at every whim. Much of this has to do with our society and so much more disposable income. Nothing wrong with taking your kids out and about, but kids should be taught how to behave. Rarely is it ever about the kid, but the parent. Kids should be in bed at a normal time and should go to places that are apporpriate for kids. I have found kids in Europe much better behaved, because its expected of them.