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Restaurant Manners
I am going to Florence in July. I understand that the beef is superb in italy. Will I offend the chef if I ask for my steak medium well? Also, how do you say this in italian and french because I will also be visiting paris?
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I suggest getting a phrase book that has a listing of common restaurant words. You will most likely need more than just that one phrase. For instance, do you know the words for beef steak in Italian and French? Remember horse steak is an option sometimes too.
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For meat:
Medium: - Italian: <i>a puntino</i>, or <i>normale</i> - French: <i>a point</i> Well done: - Italian: <i>ben cotto</i> - French: <i>bien cuit</i> "Medium-well": I'm not sure. I suppose you could just use "between medium and well-done": - Italian: <i>Tra a puntino e ben cotto</i>. - French: <i>Entre a point et bien cuit</i>. I don't know if the chef will be insulted. Historically, France has not been renowned for its beef, which is why they invented all those great sauces. But that has probably changed. - Larry |
By the way, notice <i>ben cotto</i>, which literally means "well cooked". Using the Latin prefix "bis", meaning "twice", you generate the word <i>biscotto</i>, a piece of bread cooked twice to make it crisp. The plural is <i>biscotti</i>.
In French, "twice cooked" is <i>biscuit</i>, which word we have stolen for the English word for this object, biscuit. - Larry |
Hi Kendra,
May I suggest that the point of going all the way to Florence to have Steak Florentine is to have it the way they make it in Florence? Ditto for Paris. In Italy have it "a puntino", in France, "a point". If you make them overcook the meat it will be tough. ((I)) |
Not to mention flavorless.
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I have never been asked how I like my beef done in Italy, but I rarely order beef. When I have had the Bistecca alla Fiorentina it has always been served rare.
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I think you're all very brave to still be eating beef.
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Not sure how to request a steak "medium well" in Florence but in answer to your question, you just might offend the chef. As previously noted, the tradition and practice is to receive a thick steak cooked rare when ordering bistecca fiorentina. They are quite proud of their meat and are certain of their cooking style.
Personally, coming from the US, I don't see the attraction, especially since it is always at a premium and at those prices, you can get excellent beef here. But your choice and expect an argument for well done! Cheers, Paul |
Never, never, never worry that the waiter or chef will be offended about the manner in which you order your beef, or anything else for that matter. Whenever a waiter mentions that the chef recommends it ..... My response is "Excellent, but I prefer mine....." Remember you are the customer and you are paying the bill.
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The Tuscan -- or French -- chef probably will *not* be pleased, but I'm sure he's used to such requests.
But do bear in mind that "a puntino" translates to "to a turn", "nicely", or "properly", all words that a Florentine chef is unlikely to interpret as "medium well-done." It may not be grammatically correct, but I'd ask for "medio ben cotto". And here in French-speaking Montreal, "a point" means "medium-rare". Again, grammar be damned, and ask for "moyen bien-cuit". I would, however, agree with all the previous posters who have indicated that asking for a "bistecca alla fiorentina" or a "bifteck" medium well-done runs counter to the whole idea and essence of the dish. Maybe you should consider having something else... |
I agree 100% with historytraveler. Just because the chef doesn't like my tastes I will not be eating a thing I don't like at all, specially when you are probably paying more than it deserves :)
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And be aware that "medium"in France is most likely "rare" in the US!
Fortunately I like mine BLUE!! |
Beef in europe is traditionally served VERY rare - almost mooing - becaue usually its not that good and to cook it any more makes it too tough to enjoy.
If you ask for anything more cooked than rare you are likely to get something resembling shoe leather - and esp in France a lot of funny looks. (I only ordered steak once in France and I wanted it medium rare - to them that was well done - and it was quite tough - even in a very expensive "Argentinian" steak place.) |
While I prefer my steaks RARE, I'll argue the point about asking for it the way you want it done.
Last summer the two sisters who own the apartments we stayed in, in Montepulciano sent us to a great little local steakhouse. They are something like fifth generation in the town -- you don't get much more authentic Tuscan than they are. But when they sent us there, one warned us that the steaks are normally very rare and started telling us how to order them well done -- not because that's how she thought we'd want them, but because that's how SHE always orders hers. Now if she can go to a restaurant and order bistecca fiorentina well done, I don't think Joe Schmoe from Peoria should be concerned about doing it as well. To say that all Tuscans eat their meat rare is just as absurd as saying all Parisians only wear black or all Germans are excellent drivers! Why don't some of you people start enjoying life and do things the way you want instead of worrying so much about what others will think, or what SHOULD be done for the sake of some false sense of conformity? There's a difference between "when in Rome" and forcing yourself to eat something that could actually make you sick. (And a person not used to it could easily get sick from eating a big RARE steak). |
BTW...Lamb (agneau) is not ordered a point if you want medium rare...for lamb, the term is rosee
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>Why don't some of you people start enjoying life and do things the way you want instead of worrying so much about what others will think, or what SHOULD be done for the sake of some false sense of conformity?<
Amen!! |
Sorry if I got a little riled up there, but lately all the posts about worrying that you might mispronounce a word in a foreign language (horrors), or that you HAVE to wear high heels on cobblestone streets to look like you belong, or you must wear all black even if the sun is shining and it's 90 degrees, or all the other concerns about the horrible possibility of being discovered as NOT being a local have just become a bit too much for me. Now to suggest someone shouldn't try a local specialty cooked slightly different to match his own tastes was just too much.
So? Most fine restaurants in the US balk at preparing a steak well done too, but if that's what the customer wants he has every right in the world to order it that way. That fact is no different in Italy! |
Obxgirl: (Does that stand for "obnoxious girl"...?!?) You will find this difficult to believe, but many of us are not concerned at all with what "SHOULD be done", but rather with getting the best experience available of the local culture.
But I do understand that for many Americans, their absolute, unfettered freedom to do things "the American way" takes precedence over every other consideration. I wish them well... |
Patrick - obviously everyone has the right to order food any way they choose. But it is - perhaps - only fair to warn them in advance - of what they wil be served. In the US you can get medium well steak that is edilble.
Medium well in europe would not be the same as in the US - it would be less well done - and might still be tough. What we consider medium well most people in europe would consider well done - and might well be inedible/unchewable. If - knowing this - someone chooses to order it medium well or well done - fine - but at least they are operating with some pertinent info - and are less likely to have an unhappy surprise. |
Eloise,
Obxgirl – from what I understand lives in NC on the Outer Banks (OBX) and I'm sure she'll corect me if I'm wrong :-) While she sometimes can seem a little bit harsh in her postings she seems to give good information. She was actually using a quote from one of Patrick’s posts so your ‘flame’ should be directed to Patrick not obxgirl. Recently there have been a rash of posters wanting to know: What to wear? What shoes to wear? I feel she and Patrick are justified in their vents :-) |
kendrase, Unless you speak reasonably fluent French and Italian or happen upon a waiter who speaks English, I still don't understand how all this is going to be discussed.
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Thanks for everyones response. I can definitely say that I got something from each message.
Thanks again! |
What to wear posts. What did youi wear before?
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I won't be taking sides on whether you should or shouldn't order your steak medium well.
But as someone who worked in the restaurant industry for years, I have a partial answer to the mysterious linkage in this thread of "well done" and "tough." In every restaurant I ever worked in (and some my brother worked in), people who ordered steaks medium well or well done got the worst steak in the cooler. The thought was that "they wouldn't know the difference anyway," and "save the good stuff for the people who know what's good." So just be aware of that. If you want it medium well, go ahead and order it that way. |
Machin – exactly! why would you change your whole wardrobe to travel to Paris/Italy Spain and while you were there why would you worry?
Does anybody know you? After seeing you and getting to their office will they care that you were wearing shorts? Do some of the travelers on this board think they are so very important that other people care what they wear? Do you? If you do type 'what to wear' in the search box and you’ll receive lots of input:-) Kendras3 - I'm sure you are worrying too much, just remember to post a trip report to placate other people and their concerns. Have fun! |
A few points here:
Bistecca Fiorentina, from the distinctive white Chianina steers of Tuscany and Umbria is a treat not to be missed. It is a special breed. It is served rare, but it will still be delicious medium or medium-well. Order it as you like it. At the restaurants in Florence that I have been to, the waiters seemed completely fine with understanding temperatures and that some Americans may like their steaks cooked more. If they get ticked off or judgemental, too bad. You are paying for it. There may be a sigh or roll of the eyes, but what-ev-er. They sigh and roll their eyes at us over lots of perceived goofs. Tourism also accounts for a huge, huge part of their local economy, so no matter what, in the end they know the deal. I am a chef. I consider myself a professional, and the whole point of a restaurant is to extend hospitality to the guest. There are certain things that are upsetting to us in the kitchen, like changing the concept of a created dish, but cooking meat to the liking of the customer is not generally something that is going to piss off a chef (other than we know that piece of meat is going to take longer and slow down the ticket, but that's the way the ball bounces). Cooking a piece of meat the way it is requested kind of goes along with wearing the white coat. Even in Europe, chefs know this. We aren't nearly as vindictive as everyone may think! Now the mama-and-papa joints may be a bit more temperamental but still, you shouldn't worry about it. I have this saying at work that keeps me sane. "Its just dinner." |
In Tuscany they have a steak specialty called Steak Florentine. I decided we needed to try it. In a restaurant in Montepulciano, you order the steak and pay by the kilo. It's a steak to be shared by 2 people. They cut a 3 lb T-bone (inch & 1/2 thick), brought it to our table for our approval, then proceeded to cook it on an open flame, wood burning pit. It literally was served to us charred on the outside and raw on the inside (cold). Now, I like my steak rare to medium rare, but I sent it back for a little more cooking.
The owner came to your table and basically chewed us out -- words to the effect of "that's how we eat it here, if you over cook it, you will ruin it, yada, yada, yada." ((a)) An Italian couple sitting next to us ordered the same thing. She was eating the raw meat off the bone. I guess they love that sort of thing. P.S. I didn't care if he was offended or not. ((b)) |
Always politely stick to your guns.
That kind of story pisses me off. Chefs and restaurateurs like that are what give the rest of us a bad name. Berating a customer over a steak is inexcusable. If anything, they should cook it your way and then politely explain why they prefer it rare and perhaps encourage you to try it their way another time. With a smile. When ordering steak in Tuscany, especially not in a large city, I would make sure that they know before they cook it that you aren't going to eat it rare. If they insist that blue or rare is the only way they will serve it to you, then order something else. If language gets in the way and you think its going to turn nasty, then get something else. It is all irrational, I agree, but you shouldn't have to go through that experience when trying to simply have a good meal. Please don't think that all restaurants and chefs are like that. I have had many a lovely steak in Italy, cooked the way I wanted, with no lecture on the side. I know and have worked with many Italian restaurant owners and chefs that would never dream of confronting a customer that way. Most people in this business understand that it is all about pleasing the guest, and that good food should and can transcend borders and cultural differences. |
Just don't freak out if they don't have A-1 and baked potatoes with sour cream and chives.
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to enter this fray...
I agree with "If they insist that blue or rare is the only way they will serve it to you, then order something else. If language gets in the way and you think its going to turn nasty, then get something else. It is all irrational, I agree, but you shouldn't have to go through that experience when trying to simply have a good meal." Yeah what he said - Have a GREAT time! SOOOOOO much else to eat that will be delicious. And don't forget the ever popular pantomime "ben cotto" with a polite questioning smile - waggle your hand .. blow out your cheeks a wee bit... |
faredolce, thank you for your reassuring and very sensible post! It's great to hear from someone who knows what he is talking about instead of listening to the rantings of other tourists who pretend to KNOW what Italian chefs think and do, or those who think ALL Italian chefs are exactly alike.
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I eat steak 1-2 times a year and I am veggie the rest. Yes I know weird but I relly don't care for meat and fish makes me ill when I do eat it so the taste and smell puts me off.
I had a meal while on businessoutside Milan and nearly died when I ordered beef and it was pretty raw. I did eat it as I was a guest but I don't think I will do that again. My other half has done the same but did not mind too much. We eat steak well done and I usually ask for steak (Horrors!) very well done. I also say I am Irish and they assume we have no palate and I get something near enough well. You should ALWAYS ask for it cooked the way you like. Flortine steak is a huge hunk of meat and is normally served pretty rare and would take a while to cook well done. You are a customer ask for it how you like to eat normally. I feel it is only rude to insist on it being served with things not on the menu i.e. chips (frie)s like so many of my countrymen! |
At the risk of being called obnoxious again for agreeing with Patrick, I've also enjoyed faredolce's insightful and entertaining posts.
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And thank you obxgirl, for taking the abuse that seems to have been aimed at me!
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Order what and how you want. If they wont cook it your way then order something else. IMO the Florentine steak should be eaten the way it is generally served but you have a right to have the Hell cooked out of it.
Look for me this coming week at a restaurant in Florence enjoying a nice piece of rare steak and a glass of Sassicaia. I can't wait! |
Suddenly a new thought occured to me. Beef and lamb in the UK are generally cooked beyond rare -- in fact, usually pretty well done. Do the rest of you rare meat eaters (and I admit to being one) order steaks or lamb well done in the UK, since that's normally how they might serve them? Or do you dare to order it rare because that's the way you like it? I've never thought twice about ordering my meat RARE in London, even though I strongly suspect that's not normally how they serve it.
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Sassicaia! Now you're talking business....
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How To Cook A Steak Well Done:
1. You start with a perfectly good piece of beef... |
Hey, I like my steak rare. I think its the best way to go for that particular cut of meat, especially with some 12 year+ balsamico and doused in olive oil. But not everyone can stomach a steak that rare, and as restaurant professional you have a choice of arguing with a customer, or making them feel badly, or just doing it. Even if you think they are crazy to want it well done - you just do it. Or don't cook for people for a living. If I have a chance to educate someone, or expand their palate, or expose them to a new way of eating, that is a bonus, but it ain't the primary mission....
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