RESIDENCY QUESTION. Schengen
 

So many Americans and Canadians are buying or renting homes in the Schengen area for stays of a year or more. (I'm an avid HOUSE HUNTERS INTERNATIONAL watcher). How do these people get around the 90-day-stay requirements for Schengen? Many of them do not have a lot of money so I don't think they are getting those "golden visas" or anything similar. And many of them are self-employed so they are not getting help from an employer.

Just for fun, if I want to rent an apartment in Spain or Italy for a year, how would that work? Do I have to leave every 90 days and return?

You could apply for a retirement visa. Not hugely demanding. I think about €30K in annual income.

Other than that? Qualify for citizenship. Go to university.

You can stay 90 days in any 180 period.

I can certainly speak from recent experience for Spain.

In Spain currently there are 2 types of visas available for an American citizen,
the "Golden (or Investor's) Visa", which requires an investment in unencumbered real estate of 500,000 euros (w/o a mortgage). The visa is in one person's name and can include family members (spouse or partner, children...) It is valid for 3 years and can be renewed for an additional 2 years, then one can apply for permanent residency after 5 years.
The "Golden Visa" allows free movement within the Schengen area. And there is no minimum period of residence.

Or..a Non-Lucrative Visa (visado de residencia no-lucrativa), referred to just as the NLV, which is designed for retirees, that does not allow one to seek/have employment in Spain (no working or professional activity). You must prove that you have sufficient yearly income (28,800 euros or 2,400 euros per month), and one must secure Spanish private health insurance with no deductible (also in the case of the Golden Visa) and present an official health certificate from their personal physician.

There's also a Digital Nomad visa that I'm not familiar with.

For us it was absolutely imperative to use a top flight immigration law firm. The process is not easy or is it quick and requires a huge amount of documentation, all which must be officially translated, notarized, apostilled. It was a very long haul but absolutely worth it for us, but it was very stressful.

For us this is the route with the most potential benefits, namely no visa required and an easier path to health insurance.

Even if you meet the criteria, the process can be arduous.

You need to leave every 90 days but following those 90 then be GONE 90 days outside of Schengen (though you can break it up like in Schengen 45, out of Schengen 46; or in Schengen 60, out of Schengen 61 days, etc.). It's any 90 days within any 180 day period - - not 90 days, shopping at the IKEA in Milton Keynes followed by a pub crawl in Newton Pagnell, then back again for another 90 days. You essentially have to find yourself within Schengen for less than half the year, any year - - or else you need a residency visa and will also have to pay taxes in that country of residence. If you physically are in Schengen more than half the year they expect you to paying your share to support the civic services, public policies, and infrastructure, through taxes. Also, any calendar day you are present in Schengen, even if you depart at 6am, or arrive at 11:59pm, counts as a day in Schengen.

ekscrunchy,
Before moving here to Spain when we secured our visa, we used this Schengen calculator to make sure we didn't exceed our limit, as we traveled back and forth 4 times a year.

ekscrunchy, you may find this blog very useful, from someone who has done just what you mention. In fact, many of his entries are quite interesting, ranging from health insurance, banking, paradors, drivers licence, taxes, empadronamiento, appartment/house hunting, and so on. I am always drooling over what they have managed to do, an inspiration for sure! I dream of doing this one day.

https://mappingspain.com/how-to-get-...by-step-guide/

Just pointing out doing visa runs (AKA leaving every 90 days) while in theory legal can and likely will bite you sooner or later. If somebody notices they'll assume you're trying to get around the law.

I have friends who drop in and out of the zone (France and UK) and have done for years. The law is there and is clear and as long as they obey the rules there is nothing any upset border staff can do about it.

Exactly, so long as one obeys the rules and doesn't exceed the limit.

If you believe that next time tell the border agent you're doing a visa run. That you're living in the country six months every year. See what happens.

Even if you had a visa the border agent can turn you away if they think you're not fulfilling the requirements. If you're living six months out of the year in a country are you really a tourist?

Ignoring the fact in many countries that would make you tax resident. Especially if you own a home.

People with second homes do it all the time, and not only in Europe.
The French are even changing their rules to accommodate Brits (and I assume others) with second homes. They are to issue a special permit for them.
One big problem for non Europeans settling in Europe is having to take a driving test if it is deemed their country's driving test is not strict enough. Most Americans would struggle with it I think.
Finding a bank happy to deal with the hassle of the IRS is another problem some face. Some companies have a problem with it too. When we rented a storage unit for a month we had to sign that we were not liable to US taxation.

That is not true. The law says (emphasis mine) 'up to 90 days in any 180 day period'. Just like he UK tells Yanks they can visit for ''up to six months . . . " Those are the maximums - and are not guaranteed. Nothing is guaranteed - and border agents can allow entrance for any length of time UP TO 90 days - or even possibly deny entry. Over the years I've had passport stamps in both Schengen and the UK which were for less than the maximum 90 days/six months respectively.

I remember a case (granted, a long time ago, maybe 15 years ago), on my way back with delayed flights, talking to a woman who had been sent back from London even though she had taken proof of income, who had been denied entrance to the UK for an extended stay, less than the 90 days, and was sent back. As janis said, this is possible.

I'd also point out those limits are for "tourism". If the border agent thinks you aren't a tourist all bets are off. Having a home you live in most of the year doesn't really sound like tourism.

Thanks, all. It's just a dream of mine that will likely not come to pass.....but then, who knows__. I have a small condo in Florida that, in a heartbeat, I will exchange for a place in Spain.

Maribel, I'm not sure you want to get into all this here, but what would one expect to pay for a one' bedroom flat, just a vague estimate, in Salamanca-Almagro-Chamberi_??

I'll just offer this info, for comparison. In this weeks New York Times, there is a 1 bed, 1 bath on the Lower East Side, 610 sq ft, but very polished, on sale for $1.15 million with common charges just over $1.000 a month. And a studio in the West Village-Nolita, 450 sq ft with a shared laundry, for $665.000, with monthly charges $1636 per month.


If you fancy the Bronx, in what used to be a fairly sketchy neighborhood (better now but not the stuff of dreams, by any means) Mott Haven, Walton Avenue near the courthouse and the Stadium, a one-bedroom, one bath, 750 sq ft place with shared laundry can be yours for $349,000 with monthly fee of only $875 a month.

Hi eks,
"Maribel, I'm not sure you want to get into all this here, but what would one expect to pay for a one' bedroom flat, just a vague estimate, in Salamanca-Almagro-Chamberi_??"

A king's. ransom, a small fortune---says she who recently went through the Madrid flat hunting process. We were taken aback, as the prices are as high or in many cases higher than in Seattle in some of the most "desirable" neighborhoods that you list.

Because of the Golden Visa, there is a great deal of competition in those most "elite" areas by speculators and by very rich Latin Americans, especially from Venezuela and Mexico. Many articles have been written recently about very wealthy, high society Latin Americans who want to make Madrid the new Miami--those are the writers' words, not mine, as I have no inside scoop on that other than what I've read here--.

https://www.elmundo.es/yodona/actual...16b8b45cb.html
https://elpais.com/economia/negocios...mericanos.html
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...s-flood-market

Just look at www.idealista.com and put in one of those barrios in the search engine with your parameters for a 1 bed, 1 bath. I don't think that renovated flats (new bath, new kitchen w/top end appliances, exterior facing, a/c) can be had there for 500,000 euros, the minimum Golden Visa investment. For example, the average flat in Salamanca is going for around 7,000 euros per square meter, according to the El Mundo article. And our realtor said that he's never, ever been busier and that competition is absolutely fierce.

Our family's flat in the middle class Barrio de la Estrella, east of Retiro Park, with no underground garage (but a Mon-Fri doorman), charges 3,000 euros/month for fees (gastos de comunidad)

Here's a renovated 2 bed, 2 bath in Lista (Barrio de Salamanca) to give you an idea. James Edition sends me daily updates.
https://www.jamesedition.com/real_es...rhood-13133546

Some of the 3 bed, 2 bath flats that we researched in gated communities in the northwestern suburbs had community fees of 2,000-2,500 a month. The fees vary according to the amenities (co-working space, gym, bar, community pool, children's playground, 24-hr security, etc.)

Our free standing home (well, actually a chalet pareado) is not in an urbanización, and we pay no community fees. We purchased further from the city center where prices are lower.

WOW! There goes my dream of buying in Madrid! And those common charges??? Took a peek at Idealista...looks as if there is nothing decent for under a million and even then.....most are a lot higher, something you already know!


I suppose I should not be shocked, since we pay even more than you do in Manhattan in a building with NO amenties except a dull-time doorman and a basement laundry area. We do have our own washer/dryer in the apt, but still... No parking (that tops out at $600 a month and it's 4 blocks away!!)
There is NO chance of street parking. But I can dream, right?
How long does it take to get to, for example SOL, by Metro?

Hi eks,
Please do look at www.idealista.com and also sign up for the daily updates from James Edition. They're very revealing. It will give you a much better idea.

With idealista, make sure you specify "obra nueva" in the search engine if you don't want to get into renovation, as we didn't want to renovate a darn thing.
Then choose your zone of Madrid, clicking on "mostrar todos" to see all the zones, then choose one.

Trafalgar in Chamberí is a very up-and-coming, super trendy area that we looked at, but the flat was just too tiny, but we moved from a 2,300 square foot house w/garage, and we were looking for a "forever home", not just a pied-a-terre.

I love Calle Santa Engracia in Trafalgar. Here's a new building with 1-2-3 bedroom flats.
https://www.idealista.com/obra-nueva/99169974/

Here's a NYTimes article about Madrid, the new Miami. I've gifted it.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/02/w...smid=url-share

Maribel,

Thanks so much! My afternoon is now booked, for reading about Madrid apartments! ON another note, I feel sorry for anyone who has rented here in South Florida for the season. We got here 12 December and have had about 3 sunny days, if that, since then. AS I type t his, the wind outside is howling and skies are dark! (I don't' care, really, but many surely do!)


I know that street.. I walked it from the hotel to Sala Despiece! That is a perfect neighborhood. Perfect.

Yes, you DO know that street!!, having walk from your lovely boutique hotel in Almagro to Sala de Despiece.

Next time you're "Ponzano-ing", try the Santerra Neo Taberna at the very northern end of Ponzano after a stop for a pintxo at the bar of Arima Basque Gastronomy.

BYW, the Sala de Despiece on Ponzano will be closing. The owner, Javier Bonet, is moving the Ponzano location to Calle Alonso Cano, still in Chamberí. He also intends to open a 3rd branch in Salamanca on Calle Ayala.

Hope you get more sun in South Florida!

Info here
https://www.gastroeconomy.com/2023/1...a-de-despiece/

eks,
If you look at Engels & Volkers, their prices are mind blowing!

https://www.engelvoelkers.com/en/pro...Type=apartment

WOW..you are NOT kidding! I am shocked at the prices. Anything even remotely possible (looking in Retiro now, not Salamanca) needs total renovation. The situation may be even worse than NYC. Makes sense with all the turmoil in Venezuela and, now, Ecuador, and the usual Colombians and Mexicans with $$$$!! Why did I even think this might be possible?
Only from what I see on tv shows, Valencia is also getting very very pricey, but not like Madrid. I won't even ask about Barcelona...but will take a look at the Idealista site. (I've not been there since about 2016.). One could do worse than buying a place in Sevilla(???)...certainly a lot better place got spend your winters than Florida! But don't take me too seriously...long-term rental Is a lot more of a possibility for me than buying, especially if renovation is needed! I'm just dreaming here.

What site would you recommend for rentals of 1-2 months in Madrid?

Even long term rental is very difficult in Madrid, as now 3 months rent is required in advance, and our immigration lawyer explained to us that the rental market was even more competitive than property buying these days. And remember that the cancellation penalty can be extremely stiff, in some cases completely non-refundable (learned from experience).

We did not have a particularly stunning experience with our month-long rental with Home Club---just adequate, although the location was superb, just a block or two away from your lovely boutique hotel. Very chic area, and the apt. furnishings were stylish at least, but it did need a more thorough initial cleaning (problems with installation of a new washer/dryer, which wrecked havoc on arrival day).
Change of bed linen was provided but sheets the wrong size, burned out light bulbs in m. bath and hall way that finally were repaired, mirror not secured to the wall, no instructions for use of appliances (washer/dryer & dishwasher), missing hair dryer, but a new one delivered the next day upon request.
Our greeter had never been in the apartment before so didn't know how to find the Wi Fi code, where the recycling bins were located....Just little things....But Home Club does have beautiful apartments in Salamanca for a 1-2-3 month rental.

I remember (I think???) that you used them back when they were Spain Select for a short term rental as have other of my dear, favorite Fodorites, so I don't want to be too negative.
It's just that they now have over 700 rental properties that required their attention, and proper maintenance can sometimes be lacking. In all fairness, they try to do their best, but it's imperative to deal with only one person in the office, the same person, as sometimes the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing, causing for poor communications.

On HO I was introduced to Ivory Homes but I have no personal experience with them.

Hi ekscrunchy, I am assuming that this is probably not what you initially had in mind but I suspect you would have more reasonable options if looking at some smaller towns out particularly away from the heavily touristed areas (which are not as authentically Spanish anyways). If it is on an AVE train line, that would be a great bonus for mobility. The option of an apartment hotel could also be considered, some of which have monthly rates. (done that)

I have also rented with (the former) Spain Select (SS) in Valencia in the past; our experience was actually quite a good one but with a few provisos as Maribel mentioned. It was a fairly gorgeous property literally steps away from Plaza de la Reina and the Mercat Central. Spain Select seemed to market their properties as being more "exclusive", but we had a few minor misgivings: the furnishings looked very nice but were of low quality (for example the bed mattress was in fact just a more or less dense foam slab, the living room sofa was obviously from a budget furnishing store i.e. far from "exclusive", etc.), in one of the 2 bedrooms they forgot to provide us with bed sheets (we had to use only the bed cover for the first night), that sort of thing. SS was however very responsive to our requests for sheets, colander (kitchen utensil for straining pasta, is that how you call it?) etc. All our requests were handled promptly and they also threw in 3 bottles of cava presumably as compensation. (although the bed sheets were on the tired side and had some small holes due to thinning out of the fabric over time)

ekscrunchy,
The former Spain Select, now Home Club, no longer rents short term properties or long term in Sevilla (we had a very pokey rental there), but they still do in Valencia.
And Valencia is only a one hour, 51 min. train ride from Chamartín. The Madrid-Valencia AVE now departs from Chamartín rather than Atocha.

I have a HO friend who has searched for Valencia properties, as did we initially, but we had a hard time finding something that didn't need some renovation, but you can do a search on idealista.com

In Valencia we looked in the Ruzafa (Castilian)/Russafa (Valenciano) neighborhood where our favorite dining spots are located--it has beautiful architecture.

kanadajin,
Wish that Home Club had compensated me with 3 bottles of cava, a nice gesture! :)

BTW, eks,
This was our rental in Almagro on Calle Zurbano
https://www.homeclub.com/es/properties/shortlet/1597

Maribel, yes the quick turnaround (within just a few hours) and the gifted bottles certainly left us with a positive impression of SS.

Off topic: ekscrunchy, out of sheer curiosity did you ever make it over to Santiago (Chile) in the end?

Good ideas..thanks to all who responded.

Maribel, I am going to look into the Vaencia idea, and the train trip to Madrid is a great motivator. And the weather would be great.
and the food; I think the restaurant scene has really taken off in the years since I've been, but that's only based on a few things I read online.....I never did find great paella on that trip!!

Kanadajin: NO! We had to cancel once due to COVID and once due to some (now resolved medical issue with the partner). And the semi-funny thing was that after those two cancellations, I inquired briefly about a third try, and the travel agency (yes, ewe used one, which we almost never do) told me that they did not want to work with me again! Of course they did not say it exactly like that, but.... I know I can arrange its myself, but the past two years I've been going to Spain, solo, in the winter, so I just gave up on Patagonia. I was a little on the fence about it to begin with but it was a good idea, I thought for the winter and very early January was a good time for us, also. Have you been? Am I really missing out if I never get there?

Hi eks,
Valencia has a very vibrant restaurant scene these days!
Places like La Salita, Ricard Camarena, Lienzo, Arrels, El Poblet, Fraula for Michelin stars or Repsol suns, then Dacosta's Llisa Negra for rice dishes, Fierro, the classic Askua for grilled meats, and don't forget the great bar, Rausell in Ruzafa for esmorzaret (almuerzo) or Central Bar in the fabulous Mercat and the truly wonderful tavern from 1836, Casa Montana, in El Cabanyal for wonderful trad dishes.

For paella I would go to Casa Carmela or better still, the paella place that TJ recommends on HO, Ca' Pepico. I have it at the top of my list.
He says: "It’s also worth noting that for those without a car, you can a take regional train (not the valencia metro) to Ca’Pepico in about 20 min, in contrast to the Albufuera town rice places (like Arrocería Maribel), where your only option is a 45 min bus or 40 euro taxi/rideshare."

​​​​​​​Dacosta says that Restaurante Rioja in Benissanó serves the best paella in the Valencia region, but I've not been.

Maribel, thanks!!! I took a quick look at Valencia place for sale....anything nice needs Reno. But renting a place for a few months is a far better (and less expensive!!) idea for me. I will look further, especially since you confirm that the food scene is good. I know the city is gorgeous. Would Ruzafa be the best place to locate? How is the Arts and Sciences area? And the beach areas.....???

I was in Salamanca once, more years ago than I can remember and I do remember only the beauty of the Plaza Mayor, always counted as among the most beautiful in Europe, if not the world. I remember reading the book IBERIA by James Michener, also years go, where he extols that plaza. You've made some very positive comments about the city..what would you think of a months long rental there....this would likely be in winter/early spring? How's the restaurant situation?? And the transport to Madrid??

Wherever I rented, I would prefer a 1 bedroom but since those seem to be very scarce, a 2 bedroom, which would be best if not for the price. I am going to take a look at that new building you linked earlier, in Chamberi, when I'm in Madrid. I might go to a real estate agent and inquire about rentals for a few months. But is it like the US, where all agents can use the MLS? Or does each agent offer places different than the other agencies? (I think that is the case in Paris, just going from the little I gleaned from watching House Hunters!!)

And Sevilla should be great in the winter!!! Imagine that one could cover much of Andalucia from a base there....pop down to Sanlucar for a few days, run over to Zahara for Antonio when the mood strikes!!! Visit the Matteos at their home in Jerez!!

Today I watched an episode of House Hunters International set in Madrid (timely). The American couple had sold their California house and were looking for a long-term rental--2 bedrooms with balcony--for $2800 maximum. They had jobs as English teachers, not sure where in the city. They looked at 3 properties:

1. Retiro. Facing the park. $2800. They thought it was too small. It would have been a perfect side for me, but it faced the rear of the building; no balcony. Furnishing were pretty ugly and kitchen was minimal. No balcony.

2. Latina. $2800. Also facing the rear of building. One of these places, I think this was the one, had a shared outdoor garden with chairs and tables that looked quite lovely.
if I am remembering right, this one had a better kitchen but again, furnishings not great.

3. Sanchinarro. $2500. In one of a complex of buildings circling around an outdoor pool. The buildings were second half of 20th century and although blocky, the architecture was not at all ugly. Much larger than the first two. Furnishings slightly nicer.

So, which one did they choose???

Answer: La Latina flat. I played along with the show. I liked the location of the Retiro flat, but the place was ugly. I thought Latina would be too busy and noisy and filled with tourists all the time...maybe that's not an awful thing. The third place was clearly nicest, and least expensive. But I thought they said it took an hour to get to central city, or maybe it was an hour to their school..... I liked the idea of the pool, but it seemed out of the way for a short term rental like I would be interested in.

This is mostly just dreaming but who knows? Its within the realm of possibility, certainly for renting.

The Arts and Sciences and the beach (Malvarrosa) areas for me would be a tad too far from the Mercat, the shops, the food scene. I meant to add that Ruzafa is the "barrio" (ward?) while the district is Eixample (the Expansion). Some travel writers call Ruzafa the hipster neighborhood or the new Soho. We just like the dining scene and the architecture there. The barrios in the Eixample are Ruzafa, El Pla del Remei and Gran Vía. I like the Gran Vía barrio as well.

I was just in Salamanca for 4 nights in late February to visit old haunts (I studied there), and my husband and I are returning in early May when it warms up (it's incredibly cold there in winter and windy). Although the city is indeed beautiful, especially at night, it's a tad too far away from Madrid for me to be happy there long term. There are 3 daily Alvia trains, taking 1 hr. 40 min. but the rest are slow MDs that take almost 3 hours. I went by Alvia and returned to Madrid by slow bus.

We looked in Sanchinarro. No, no, no. :)

Yes, all agents can use the MLS. But it would be best to deal first with a long term/short term rental company (like Home Club or Ivory) whose apartamentos turísticos are geared towards business folks on a short term contract or people who just want to try Madrid out, like you, before committing. They come completely furnished.

Many owners don't want to rent for just a month. Some require a 3-month minimum rental along with a hefty security deposit.

Be very careful about exterior vs interior apartments. Although ours on Zurbano was exterior with 2 Juliette balconies in the large living room, the rest of the rooms had no natural light at all--the kitchen window looked into the kitchen window of our neighbor, the baths and bedrooms in the rear had no natural light, but of course, there was no street noise, so a trade off. But Almagro has become extremely expensive. Our flat was next to an embassy and across from the Palacio de Santo Mauro, a posh neighborhood but very, very quiet (dead, actually) on weekends, as the well-heeled residents took off for their weekend homes.

I took at look at Home Club for Valencia, but they only have flats in 3 different buildings.
All of these apartments look nice, and prices are what I imagined for a fairly high-end rental. Or I stretching things to say "high end." I would like 2 bedrooms, but 1 is ok, too.
I liked the look of the Canvas I flat and it seems to be easy walking to the Gran Via and Ruzafa barrios. I will see if the seafood-shunning partner would agree to visit, maybe late November/early December....(again: ???)!

ekscrunchy,
The Vanvis I flat has a great deal of natural light, and I like the open kitchen rather than a kitchen that's a tiny room closed off from the rest of the flat (like ours was).

Big news!!!! Partner has agreed to take trip in late November!!!!!!! Will begin new thread about this later on..... I was thinking 2 weeks in Valencia, with no rental car but possible side Tripp too: ???? I know it's easy to get to Barcelona on the train (I did a Valencia-Barcelona trip about 10 years ago, staying in a rental apt inn Barcelona that I loved. But maybe tiring to go to BCN just for one day, although we could arrange an overnight stay.

Do not miss Cuenca! AVE from Valencia (about 45 minutes I think). See the casas colgadas, the very impressive cathedral with cloister, and a highlight for us if you are into Modern Art, the Museo de Arte Abstracto (inside one of the casas coladas). We actually stayed an overnight or two at the parador there and had a room with killer views on the gorge.

Yes, definitely a side trip to Cuenca via the AVE. I second every single word that kanadajin has said.
Stay in the Parador across the bridge, dine at the reopened Casas Colgadas restaurant with one of Castilla La Mancha's best chefs, tour the cathedral with the excellent audio guide and see the wonderful Museo de Arte Abstracto with works of Chillida, Tapiès, José Guerrero, Barceló, Torner.

Burt warning----bundle up for November, as Cuenca can be ice cold!

Everything being relative coming from where we live, Cuenca is positively mild !!! Even in Salamanca in March (where I studied as well), when I arrived I felt so lucky to be out of our eternal winter. Imagine that, in Salamanca at that time the water was actually in its liquid form!!!! (i.e.not ice) The running fountains and all the flowers were like a balm on life, soooo soothing :) At that same time her here we still have over a couple of months to see real green leaves on trees ....

(Sorry, just venting ;))

That's funny! Where exactly do you live, kanadajin? I was in Salamanca this February and I thought it was soooooo cold! But comparatively speaking....

Fantastic! Yes got Cuenca. You think we ought to spend the night there? I contacted a VRBo listing for a Valencia flat that looks great, and will soon contact the HOmeClub about the Canvis..

Yes, ekscrunchy, do spend the night! And make sure that your Parador room has that gorgeous gorge view. And dine at Jesús Segura's Casas Colgadas, Repsol recommended. But closed Sunday evening and all day Mon/Tues.
https://www.guiarepsol.com/es/comer/...-jesus-segura/