Renting an apt.
 

I used to rent apts. in my trips to Europe but haven't in awhile.

So I've looked around a bit on VRBO and AirBnB and there seems to be a variety of conditions.

For a 5-day rental in Paris for instance, some owners ask for over $1000 in security deposit.

Does VRBO or AirBnB mediate disputes if deposits aren't returned?

One listing I liked was from a new VRBO owner but he wants the full 850 Euro paid upfront, which is unusual compared to other listings.

Booking.com also has some listings for apts. and they also have special conditions, like paying 25% up front and paying the rest in cash at checkin.

One of the reasons I went away from apts. to hotels is having to deal in cash, either wiring the deposit amount, leaving a "refundable" damage deposit and even having to deal with withdrawing several hundred Euros from ATMs at once.

Are people having positive VRBO and AirBnB experiences here or is it entirely dependent on the owner?

I think the best you can hope for here are a few individual reports. Do the places you like have reviews? I try to go by reviews.

We used Flipkey in France this year and I liked their policies, which I clarified by phone using their toll free number. I also like using agencies that accept credit cards.

Your payment experience, whether good or bad, is entirely dependent on the owner of the rental. There is a certain level of trust required in a cash transaction. If the listing is new and the owner is an unknown, you'll need to wade through more red flags than normal. If your gut says no-go, I would trust your gut.

Security deposits are not uncommon for furnished vacation apartment rentals. The amount can be any number the owner wishes, but it's usually based on the value of the apartment's contents, length of stay, and the number of people using the place. One tends to be a more careful guest when there's money on the line.

In all the decades I've rented cash-only apartments, I've never experienced an owner attempt to rip me off. But I do my homework. I would never hand over a security deposit "before" I take possession of the keys, and I must receive the security deposit back when I give back the keys at departure.

I thought some of the listings said they'd return the deposit within a week after checking out?

Yeah that seems sketchy now. They're going to wire or mail it to you?

<i><font color=#555555>"I thought some of the listings said they'd return the deposit within a week after checking out?"</font></i>

No ordinary person with half a brain, who has done the homework, is going to view that stipulation as reasonable.

Flipkey displays a certain price per night and then when you click for full details, it shows a total for the stay which is higher than the sum of the individual nights.

Are they adding in all the fees like the cleaning fees and such?

I've not used VRBO or Air B&B, but I often rent apartments directly from owners in Switzerland (as well as Australia and New Zealand).

In almost every instance, payment has been required in full and up front, which is also the policy here in Australia when booking private rentals.

I have on occasion made arrangements to pay in cash upon arrival to avoid bank fees, and some owners have waived the security deposit or agreed to take it in cash upon arrival. One place agreed to take it in cash, and then immediately waived it when they saw us - we must look pretty harmless.

I've never had a problem, but it certainly is a leap of faith.

You might check with tourist offices - one of our recent rentals in Switzerland was found, arranged and paid for via the tourist office in Gstaad - it was all done online, paid in full in advance and they accepted credit cards which made things more straightforward. They also required mandatory cancellation insurance which they provided for a fee.

<<No ordinary person with half a brain, who has done the homework, is going to view that stipulation as reasonable.>>

I must be brainless then, because I did that very thing with a rental here in Australia. They required a $250 bond via bank transfer to be returned a week after vacating the property. I did and they did, no worries.

I'd be less comfortable doing it for a rental outside of the country though, too many variables such as bank transfer fees, differing currencies, exchange rates, etc.

For instance this apt. for 5 nights is quoting a price of $1225 plus $650 deposit.

https://www.flipkey.com/paris-condo-rentals/p194050/

When I click Request Rental, you are prompted to fill in your credit card info for a PayPal payment for $1875 and it says the owner would return the $650 10 days after the rental ends.

So they wouldn't return the money when you return the key in this case.

Ten days is probably how long it takes to post the refund on credit card. I suspect it's the credit card company that takes so long, not the owner.

$650 seems pretty steep though.

Paris is cracking down on owners short term renting their apartments. Technically it is illegal..has been for years.. but no one did much about it till recently. Apartment vacancies in the city are scarce.. so locals are up in arms about the apartments being rented to tourists.. therefore removing them from the pool of available apartments for residents.. and of course city wants the taxes from the revenue ..which in most cases are not being paid.
The thing is.. there are thousands of such rentals.. so the process of cracking down on them is going to take awhile.. but the problem is now neighbors are turning in their neighbors who are renting to tourists. They are sick of the in and out of strangers ,, the apartment security codes being given out to strangers on a weekly if not more often basis.

So.. renting an apartment in Paris is now taking on a different risk..

There ARE legal short term rentals.Owners of apartments are allowed to rent out their PRIMARY RESIDENSE for up to 3 months a year. However..its hard to determine if the apartment you rent will be legal or not, and of course if you ask the owner they will assure you they are.

The risk is that you may have a rental cancelled at last minute by an owner that has been "caught". This happened recently to a poster on another forum, they were lucky their rental wasn't for a few months however,, so they have had time to rebook. What if it happens the week before you arrive though?

So, while I have rented apartments in Paris, I am seriously considering returning to hotel usage( which frankly I don't mind, I have several hotels I have used and liked and are in my price budget and would return to happily).
Pros of hotel accomadation is no big up front deposit, and often good cancellation policies.

I personally would never pay the full amount for a rental up front.. what if you arrive and apartment is not as pictured .. or not as described.you are stuck as in almost any case I have heard of getting refunds is very difficult.
It may be one thing if apartment is inhabitable.. but what if owner just glossed over some small points.. area isn't as nice as they say.. rooms are smaller, bed harder etc etc.

Its a calculated risk to rent an apartment in Paris right now , paying the whole amount up front is another risk I wouldn't take.

Good points but it seems impossible to rent an apt. without paying down at least a few hundred dollars..

So even if you can pay 75% on arrival, you're unlikely to lose 25% because you decide to cancel after inspecting the place?


Yeah the place on FlipKey is asking not only for the $650 deposit but all of the rental charged to your credit card right away.

Do these web sites bother to hold the money in case there are disputes or just remit the money right away? Seems unlikely they'd hold to make sure everything was okay before sending the money through.

I work with Thierry at parisbestlodge.com. He has never steered me wrong on three rentals over the last few years. The apartments are as advertised and he is trustworthy.

<i><font color=#555555>"in case there are disputes"</font></i>

If you are a dispute-minded customer or someone who obsesses about the potential for something going wrong, you should avoid vacation rental properties. Owners prefer not to deal with unreasonable people, which is why some properties come with fairly strict rules. If you can't afford the risk of losing any pre-paid monies, then you are not the customer for the properties who require these stipulations.

<i><font color=#555555>"I must be brainless then"</font></i>

Not necessarily. It sounds to me like you did a risk assessment and determined the owner is reliable.

Everyone views risk differently. If you do the homework, only you can determine the definition of risk or just how much risk you're willing to endure.

If I want a house badly enough, and the owner passes every smell test available, then I might decide to accept the owner's "unreasonable" rules. The key is in the homework. Many of these rental sites offer web pages to help you make smart security decisions.

<i><font color=#555555>"Paris is cracking down…"</font></i>

Paris was once a city that embraced the apartment rental vacationer, especially those from the U.S. I once partnered with two other people and invested in a fixer-upper on Place des Vosges. We worked very hard to improve the neighborhood. We enjoyed that special place for almost two decades and sold it for a fortune in late 2006. In the meantime, Paris changed. She has grown more fearful of "the other," no matter who that other might actually be. IMO, the "anti" sentiment in Paris is rising to dangerous heights, which reminds me of some ugly history. I suppose this is what happens to a society in the face of fear.

I'm a firm believer, if you're hell-bent on making me feel unwelcome, then I will stay away and spend my money elsewhere. I'm glad I'm no longer a property owner in Paris, and my opinion of Paris is quite different from the romantic version you read about on this forum.

I know some wonderful, loving people who were born and raised in Paris and still live there. Unfortunately, their viewpoint is not represented on this board.

Wow Thierry has an empire now. I remember he used to only have a couple of apts.


FWIW, Flipkey says they guarantee rentals up to $10k. So if a listing owner takes all the money but can't rent, Flipkey would refund the money?


I'm also considering apt. rentals in Amsterdam and London. Any similar restrictions in those cities?

We rented in Amsterdam and are not aware of any restrictions as found in Paris. For more information, look for my trip report; click on my name to find it.

Hmm, Flipkey seems to be holding the deposit:

"When will I get my damage deposit back?

We automatically release refundable deposits once 10 days have passed after check-out. This holding period gives the owner 7 days to access the property to ensure there are no damages. The additional 3 days allow ample time for us to process a claim and reimburse you if necessary.

Please note, it can take 7-10 business days before a refund is available on an online statement. Depending on your credit card provider, it may appear as a credit on your month's statement. Please be sure to contact your credit card provider if you do not see your refund in the allotted time frame. "


Also tries to encourage you to pay through Flipkey web site, warning against wire transfers or paying in cash:

How do I submit payment safely?

We recommend paying securely by credit card, preferably online through the FlipKey website, whenever possible. Owners/managers can send you a request for payment via FlipKey, and many also accept traveler initiated booking requests directly through their listing. By paying through the FlipKey site, your booking will be protected by our Peace of Mind Guarantee.

Note that some property owners/managers on FlipKey are eligible to accept funds outside of our system. If paying outside of FlipKey, we advise travelers:

Do not pay by wire transfer. There is no protection for these payments, and they cannot be traced. Requests for payment via wire transfer can be legitimate, and some form of electronic payment may be required in your destination, but we recommend that you exercise caution if payment via Western Union or MoneyGram is required.

Be cautious of requests for payment in cash. In some countries, large cash payments are discouraged or illegal, and it is best to pay via credit card when possible. In the rare occasion of a scam or unlawful rental, the credit card company may help, giving each traveler added protection.

Be suspicious if asked to pay a person other than the one you have been dealing with.

Be aware of where you are asked to send the payment. Be weary if you’re asked to send payment to a bank account in an obscure country or to an account in someone else’s name.

I have rented from Thierry at Parisbestlodge. Been very happy with arrangements and my two units.

One very good thing about some of his apartment is 4-5 of them are in the same building.,, and he and partners own the entire building.. and there are only their few units in it so there are no neihbors to complain!!
Look at the Emeralda.. we loved it.

With www.onefinestay.com you do not deal with the owner, but with Onefinestay. Payments are by credit card, you do not pay a deposit upfront. Since you deal with the company rather than the owner, they will find you another flat in case of problems.

Tulips those are outrageous prices.. the cheapest place in Paris is high.. and the location not that great!

You pay for the service, with cleaning, beds made up with nice linens, a free Iphone to use during your stay and the security of dealing just with one company rather than an owner.
Prices are more like those of good hotels, but you'll get much more space than you would in a hotel.
We let a flat with them in London, and it's booked very often, sometimes for weeks on end.

I think it is worth reflecting on what NYCFoodSnob has written above.

I don't agree with all of it, but it is all intelligent and based on experience.

It should be part of your risk assessment process.

Funny I know some lovely people , relatives actually who were born and raised in Paris and would not see eye to eye with NYCFoodsnobs assessment.

To actually have the centric view that if you don't want me "making me feel unwelcome" ( for making staying in illegal rentals difficult ) instead of,, "its a good thing the city cares about its actual residents and wants them to be able to find accomodation in their OWN city rather then cater to tourists only" is not reasonable.

I think most of them would say .. please.. stay away .

"I thought some of the listings said they'd return the deposit within a week after checking out?"

No ordinary person with half a brain, who has done the homework, is going to view that stipulation as reasonable.>>

???? why on earth not? What does one expect, my last deposit was by Paypal, so it had to be returned that way. What else would I do to get it back, 10 days is reasonable. I'm not sure what that point was -- if the idea is you must insist on it the minute you leave, that assumes you are hanging around the apt for hours with someone who can give you the money. I often have to leave at the crack of dawn for a flight, so just exit and leave the keys on the table. Of course I have to wait to get the deposit back. And some apts have managers or staff who come later i the day to assess possible damage. This is not unusual at all.

I think I'm pretty ordinary and I have a full brain, a deposit returned within 10 days seems reasonable to me.

I thought the funniest thing NYFS wrote, regarding Place des Vosges, was:

"We worked very hard to improve the neighborhood."

Apart from pocketing the "fortune", guess Paris just didn't turn out to be the improved place NYCFoodSnob wanted it to be. Myabe if Americans want to see a welcoming attitude toward "the other" around the world, they should lead by example (instead from so far behind).

<i><font color=#555555>"its a good thing the city cares about its actual residents"</font></i>

I'm not quite so gullible. The issue is about money and perhaps fear of "something," but it's not about compassion.

<i><font color=#555555>"that assumes you are hanging around the apt for hours with someone who can give you the money"</font></i>

I have waited for hours to receive keys to enter my abode, but I have never had to wait for the return of my security deposit. If the apartment is going to be inspected for damage, I MUST BE PRESENT when the inspection takes place. IMO, any other option is not smart or acceptable.

<i><font color=#555555>"I often have to leave at the crack of dawn for a flight"</font></i>

Fortunately for me, I dictate when I fly, and I can't remember the last time I had to endure a flight at the "crack of dawn." That's not how I roll. If a renter must endure such inconvenience, there's no harm in requesting a walk-through the night before.

<i><font color=#555555>"a deposit returned within 10 days seems reasonable to me"</font></i>

Every consumer has his or her own definition of reasonable. I've been a landlord for a very long time, and I'm a very busy and active woman. IMO, holding a security deposit beyond a tenant's stay is abusive customer treatment. If you think that's appropriate behavior, then hey, it's your money. Do what pleases you. A lot of consumers don't mind being abused.

<i><font color=#555555>"Apart from pocketing the "fortune", guess Paris just didn't turn out to be the improved place NYCFoodSnob wanted it to be."</font></i>

Putting aside the snark of a troll post, I had nothing to do with the decision to sell. Of the three investors, the lead investor was a Parisian resident. It's a good thing his intelligence and financial experience lead the key decisions.

Nor did I have any control of politics post 9/11.

OF course the issue is about money.. where on earth do city officals think its ok to have a whole underground economy where they are missing out on the proper taxes being paid to the city. And you had better believe a large proportion of short term apartment renters are not declaring their income and paying their fair portion of taxes on that undeclared income.
And as for the politics of it.. well.. duh.. if I am a resident I want the politicians working for ME., not just you the tourist.. If vacancy rates are low and that's partly because of investors buying apartments and renting them out for 1000 euros a week , as short term holiday lets( and not declaring or underdeclaring the income) .. as opposed to renting them to residents at 2000 euros a month for them to live in.. really ?

"something else going on"

WHAT are you being so coy about NYFoodsnob.

What exactly is "going on "?

And maybe your partner was intelligent enough to realize that short term apartment rentals would run into problems down the road.. as they are right now.

PS.. Did you declare and pay taxes on all your investment income in France? Did your partner? Guess you may not know that one exactly for sure.

Ps I own and rent investment properties here.. and the law allows me 10 days to return damage deposits. It may take time in some cases to get estimates for repairs etc and when I withhold a damage deposit I have to have proper estimates of repair to determine how much to keep back.When I was younger I returned a damage deposit and discovered an issue a few days later that cost me money to fix.. so now , I keep the damage deposit for a few days at least just to be sure.. ever have a tenant move in and point out something isn't right a few days later,, I have ( dishwasher was not functioning,, was clogged,repairman said it hadn't had filter cleaned and obviously food was not scraped at all before dishes were put in) , but this is not something you can notice on a walk thru on day of end of tenancy)

oh , and that was not the issue that really cost me.. that's a whole other story.

<i><font color=#555555>"I returned a damage deposit and discovered an issue a few days later that cost me money to fix.. so now , I keep the damage deposit for a few days at least just to be sure.. ever have a tenant move in and point out something isn't right a few days later,, I have ( dishwasher was not functioning,, was clogged,repairman said it hadn't had filter cleaned and obviously food was not scraped at all before dishes were put in) , but this is not something you can notice on a walk thru on day of end of tenancy)"</font></i>

Everyone views money differently. No two landlords think alike. I think there are smart, clever, attractive ways to prevent misuse of appliances in a rental property. My security deposits have always been steep. My properties are very special. However, I don't punish tenants for accidental damage. Accidents happen, and stuff eventually dies. I've never felt a need to attach a financial cost to any mishap. Out of all the tenants I've had through the years, I never withheld $1 from anyone's security deposit. IMO, whatever needed fixed or replacing came out of the cost of doing business. I've never lost money on a rental property. I enjoy being a generous, hospitable landlord.

Now, if I found a cigarette burn, when the rules clearly state in bold caps: NO SMOKING, then my generosity ends. That hasn't happened yet.

<i><font color=#555555>"And maybe your partner was intelligent enough to realize that short term apartment rentals would run into problems"</font></i>

Our real estate investment in a building that needed serious rehabilitation was never classified as a "short term apartment." Anticipating the financial meltdown in 2007 and the burst in the housing market was indeed fortuitous.

<i><font color=#555555>"Did you declare and pay taxes on all your investment income in France? Did your partner?"</font></i>

My accountant of 20+ years is a former employee of the IRS. I take orders from her. As for anyone else, I respect privacy and boundaries, and I never ask questions that are none of my business.

There is a difference between wear and tear, and neglect or misuse.

And I have withheld damage deposits several times.. broken window pane, burn mark from pot put on counter, cat spray on carpet, etc etc.
Good for you if you have never had issues.. but in over 25 years of renting out dozens of units that would be miraculous to me to overlook keeping my investments safe from depreciation from damages.

And the point of this was about the illegal apartment rental situation in Paris.. of which you apparently were invested in since you clearly state you were aware that the building you bought in did not allow short term rentals( but you did it anyways for awhile ).

<i><font color=#555555>"over 25 years of renting out dozens of units"</font></i>

I've never been that kind of landlord.

<i><font color=#555555>"since you clearly state you were aware that the building you bought in did not allow short term rentals( but you did it anyways for awhile )"</font></i>

I have no idea what you're talking about.

I obviously misunderstood your post.. I thought you invested in an apartment in Paris as a rental unit.. but you were simply flipping it.
That's actually what the topic is.. short term apartment rentals in Paris.
Not sure how your experience simply buying fixing and flipping a place in Paris gives you any special insight then into the situation as it is now, or then ?

<i><font color=#555555>"but you were simply flipping it"</font></i>

I still have no idea what you're talking about.

Here are some tips to help a renter try to protect his security deposit, though anytime you pay cash for deposit or rent, you are taking a huge risk. Legally, that money never existed, so you should be prepared to kiss it goodbye, if something goes wrong. Illegal rentals complicate the issue, of course.

1) Read your rental contract before you sign it. There should be a mention of the length of time deposits will be held before they re returned. If there isn't, ask for that to be added.
2) On arrival, do a complete walk-through with the greeter, note any discrepancies and sign an inventory only after you both agree that this has been satisfactorily completed. If you don't do this, it's your word against his - guess who wins? Some people take photos of the property - probably not a bad idea.
3) Don't cause any damage. If you do, don't attempt to replace or fix anything. Most owners will reject what you buy, and will charge you anyway.
4) Before departure, repeat Step 2.
5) If there has been any damage, the greeter must take photos and document the damage. Your entire deposit may be withheld - but it must be put in escrow. You are not responsible for paying any damages until you receive detailed receipts from merchants (stores) or service providers (cleaning services). This amount will then be deducted from your deposit, and the balance refunded within the period stated on your rental contract. If you wish to contest a damage charge, now is the time to produce those photos - no photos, no luck.

Anyone renting property has the right to set his own terms. Anyone wishing to stay there has to abide by them. Since short-term rentals in Paris are illegal, you have no legal recourse if something goes awry - as you would in many cities in the US and elsewhere.
If you pay by credit card or PayPal, you might not be covered, either. Each bank and PayPal set certain limitations on what they will allow. Don't take anything for granted, don't base your choices on what someone else did, read the fine print and take the information seriously. If you don't take the time to do a walk-through with the greeter, as well as an "exit interview" - you have only yourself to blame. If you're the kind of person who prefers to never deal with the people you're renting from, the same thing applies.

NYfoodsnob.. I have reread your posts ,assuming I have misread them. but have decided you seem to jump in on tangents that do not apply and with citing your experience that seemed happened 9 years ago.. well frankly I give up trying to figure out what your point is or was.. other then :

"there is something more going on here "

Which you have not explained.

Well I contacted a number of Flipkey listings and they come back with links to their own web sites for payment.

Some of the links do not even work.

So I guess a lot of these apt. agencies just use sites like Flipkey, AirBnB and VRBO as just another directory but do the actual transactions through some other means.

Really inconsistent though, some ask for full money with no mention of deposit to reserve though if they have your credit card, that is presumably their security deposit.

Then others only mention a $150 key deposit, to be returned presumably when you return the keys. But what if you have an early morning departure and can't hand over the key to someone?

<i><font color=#555555>""there is something more going on here "

Which you have not explained."</font></i>

The quote which you attribute to me does not exist on this thread, at least not from me. I can't explain a statement I never made. I know I'm often misunderstood on this board, but I've never seen such an extreme example as evidenced on this thread, by you, justineparis. I never know what to say when someone twists my words to argue their point of view. I think of it as bad manners or perhaps a need for new glasses. I really don't know what to make of it.

What does the "anti" refer to ?

You have insinuated and danced around a fair bit. Perhaps I have misinterpreted some of your postings.. but to be fair you are not very clear either.. which may be why you have found your posts occasionally being twisted.

scrb11 - since vacation rentals are not regulated, there is no standard regarding payment, keys, deposits - nothing.

The sites you mentioned - and most other websites - are simply paid advertising. Nobody verifies the content, there are no "company rules", and the sites do not take responsibility for any problems between the owner and renter.

The property owner pays a fee, posts photos and a description of the property. The photos and the description might be accurate or deliberately misleading. Reviews are not always genuine. He sets his own rules.

These websites are not secured, and are regularly hacked by "phishers", who change descriptions, payment methods and contact information. The owner is often not aware that this has been done, until he is contacted by an irate client who showed up and had no place to stay. There are a few famous "phishers" in Great Britain who make quite a good living hacking these sites.

If you book through any of these websites, you are taking a shot in the dark. You can try to protect yourself by investigating the owner's references on social media, searching for reviews other than those on the listing website, calling the owner and asking lots of questions. Even so, all you have is the word of a stranger. If you don't qt least take the time to do this - or don't want to - you will have only yourself to blame if something doesn't go the way you planned. Even so, using listing websites instead of an agency is taking a big risk.

<i><font color=#555555>"What does the "anti" refer to?"</font></i>

Are you reading <b>anything</b> other than Fodor's? OK, if Fodor's is your only source of news, have you read any of the "vacation rental in Paris" threads? Pick your poison.

<i><font color=#555555>"Perhaps I have misinterpreted some of your postings.. but to be fair you are not very clear either."</font></i>

You <i>have</i> misinterpreted some of my posts. In an effort to avoid political commentary, I am as clear as I wish to be on this thread.

<i><font color=#555555>"all you have is the word of a stranger"</font></i>

There was a time when the word of stranger meant something. In 30+ years of travel, I have met many wonderful strangers. Most of the strangers were kind, helpful, generous, and supremely hospitable. They understood the challenges of travel and worked hard to make you, another stranger, feel safe, comfortable, and most of all welcome. In fact, not one stranger I met in all my vacation rental experiences has ever let me down, treated me unkindly, or tried to rip me off. Sadly, the "anti" noise on the internet feeds overblown hysteria, and the tumor keeps growing.

Growth may take a hit, but the cream tends to rise to the top. You'll no doubt have to sift through much more cancerous noise these days, but plenty of choices are still available. Since no government is encouraging city-center investment in affordable hotels for middle-class travelers and their families, perhaps the vacation rental market will never die. Much like marijuana and liquor in the 1920's, when the customer demands it, the market will find a way.