rental car ?violation
 

We rented at car in Italy many months ago. Just today we received a letter re a traffic violation (using an incorrect lane) said to be linked to our car and time of rental. We were never stopped at the time and have no idea whether this is legitimate. The notification was not from the Florence police but from "european municipality outsourcing" and a passport # was on the form.
Is this legitimate? a scam?

It's legit. Here's a recent thread on the same topic.

fodors.com/forums/threadselect.jsp?fid=2&tid=35100388

Hi L,

>a passport # was on the form.

If it was your passport # it is.

You were caught by a camera.

Pay the fine. Otherwise your rental company will pay it and bill your cc + fees.

((I))

You will probably have an additional smaller charge on your credit card from the rental company for providing your information to the police.

Friends recently got two such "bills". One was for England and one was for Italy. They were looking for a particular street in Milan and suddenly realized they had gone through a red light. Sure enough, that's what the camera caught them doing. The one in England I think they said was for speeding (not surprising to me or to them). Both of these took nearly 5 months to get to them! So I think it's funny when people start talking about "big brother is watching in the US". He's clearly watching on camera all over Europe too!

I would immediately write back and ask for a copy of the photo.

yes, do as hopscotch says as they are obligated to give you that information.

I know my Garmin GPS has POIs (points of interest) you can subscribe to that identify known positions of traffic cameras. A proximity alarm sounds when you come within a certain distance of the camera.

I've never used this feature but I think I will investigate before I rent a car in Italy and France this summer.

at least in spain, official transactions are so slow.. there are agencies that help you get off the hook, so to speak, by appealing.

maybe there are some in italy.

they look for legal loopholes, date of camera revision, etc. and sometimes the paperwork takes so long you legally are off the hook if the adminstration doesn´t answer your appeal with in an alloted time frame.

maybe a local can help steer you. worth a try. the fees for these agencies are VERY low, and it can be done oneself.. but from abroad i don´t know how you would approach that.

i really hate the lazy way of fining drivers with cameras and no in person stopping at th time of infraction.

it does no good to improve the driver´s bad/illegal habit as they don´t even find out about it for months or weeks, at the best.

so what is the point, except to gather funds? they cetainly are NOT interested in safety, which,in itself, is deplorable.

"so what is the point, except to gather funds? they cetainly are NOT interested in safety, which,in itself, is deplorable."

I am not sure I agree. Certainly there are some blackspots in the UK where cameras have dramatically reduced the number of accidents. It is not as if they are hidden - They are well signposted and bright yellow.

I have never understood how honest people, who would never dream of breaking "normal" laws by e.g. thieving from a supermarket feel that traffic laws are somehow different.

I don't see a major difference in paying €100 on the spot and the cop tells you that you were driving in the wrong lane, or paying €100 two months later with a letter telling you the same.
I would even say it's somewhat more fair when everyone who violates speed or other traffic regulations gets a ticket from a camera, than just those who were unlucky enough to speed while some cops were around.

"it does no good to improve the driver´s bad/illegal habit as they don´t even find out about it for months or weeks, at the best.

so what is the point, except to gather funds? they cetainly are NOT interested in safety, which,in itself, is deplorable."
>>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>

Huh? Do you use the same reasoning when a policeman stops a car and gives a ticket? I mean the infraction is already over, how will it improve safety? Because the more people are aware they will get tickets for driving infractions, the more careful they will be. In fact, I'd be willing to bet after getting a delayed "camera inspired" ticket or two, many drivers will drive more cautiously because they are aware they could be caught -- a lot different from taking a quick look to see if you see a cop car before speeding through an intersection on red.

Regarding demanding a copy of the picture. Well, fine if you are almost sure that such a thing never happened. But like my friends with their two tickets, they immediately KNEW they were probably right, in fact they even specifically remembered the one incident.

If they say you used an incorrect lane and linked it to your rental car at a time and place where you were, and you think about and suspect it could have been done, why fight it? Do you honestly think the police are going around randomly picking tourists and accusing them of infractions they didn't commit? Kind of paranoic isn't it?

It still would've been nicer to get that ticket at the time of the incident. Over the past 5 months that fine probably increaed $10-20 as the dollar continued to fall against the Euro!

I believe those European traffic cam POI's are indeed available on the internet, but you have to subscribe (pay for them).

Even if you subscribe to the traffic camera POIs they are not that up to date, and certainly in the Netherlands there are always unannounced speed trap cameras set up randomly which will not be on your GArmin/TomTom. SOme local radio stations do issues info on them if drivers call in aith them, but not always, and you have to understand the language of course.
Traffic cameras do work as a deterrent. As NP says collect a fine or tow from them and you soon start obeying the rules. In the UK I believe you also get points on your (UK)licence, which is also quite an incentive to obey the rules. Here we just get a fine. They can be galling at times (when you get one for doing 6km over the limit on a motorway at 4 am for instance) but they are a fact of life.
They always take a while to come through to you - they have to get the info from the car hire company etc etc. Even here they can take a couple of months and that is with our own car.
As fof fighting it why bother? The dollar may be even lower against the Euro and it will cost you even more money then.

My point is: I would assume that a driver who recieves a ticket today at 5 pm for what he did today at 5 pm MIGHT drive a little more carefully between today and,let´s say next month.. when he would receive a camera ticket not supported by police intervention on site.

I DEPLORE dangerous drivers..
believe me..

you speed.. pay up.
you break the law.. pay up.
But wouldn´t it be nice to know you had done it at the time, (assuming you are a normal person)?

but i personally think that police presence enhances the chances that a person take notice IMMEDIATELY of what they were doing wrong.

Or am I being unreasonable?

Obviously, police can´t be everywhere all the time, but if an area is so dangerous to need cameras, I wouldn´t doubt that additonal police cameras to back up the camera capture would enhance safety even more.

I´m not saying this person shouldn´t be fined for using an incorrect lane.

I do see your point that this way EVERYONE gets a ticket who is misusing the lane.. that is fine.
if the offender is certain he did that.. why contest.. but if i were in doubt, i would like to reassure myself i really had done something wrong..( just seeing some proof )

and it would have been nice to know that day so i didn´t do it AGAIN (assuming i were a normal person wanting to obey the law).

I got caught on camera in the Netherlands a few years ago. I thought I was going the same speed as the rest of the traffic, so I guess we all got fined. It was in a place on a date at a time I was there. (My Dutch neighbor says his relatives are always warning him about cmaras when he visits and tell about being caught themselves. So these cameras don't just target tourists!)

The car rental company paid the fine and then tracked me down and charged it to my crdit card. About $100 after the fine, VAT, and rental company add on for paperwork.

I wasn't thrilled but accepted that I was wrong and didn't fight it. As my students used to say, "Do the crime, do the time" (or in this case, pay the fine).

I have certainly been much more careful about speed since then. (My siblings think this incident was a hoot as they have always teased me about driving like our grandmother.)

Lately I am wishing our town would get some cameras. People fly through our 25mph neighborhod at45, zip through red lights at the end of our street making it a major hazard to get into the main road, don't stop for pedestrian crosswalks, etc.

So just pay up and chalk it up to learning experience.

Pay it, learn the traffic control signs, and have a good time on your next trip as an "informed tourist".

I've been caught on cameras for minor traffic violations twice where I live, a lot of cities in the US are doing this, I think. It isn't a matter of being "lazy", it is for cost efficiency, which good governments should promote, and it actually is a more accurate way of doing it. There is photo proof in the case of redlights.

I don't actually have anything against this in principle, I do have something against it when speeding sensors are placed on streets where speeding isn't really a big problem and isn't dangerous, and the posted limits are unreasonably low, but they know a lot of cars speed on that street and are doing it for money, rather than safety. There is one situation like that where I live, where for some reason, on a major thoroughfare without any intersections or lights in the middle of it for maybe a half mile, the speed limit is only 35 MPH. It should be at least 45, and other similar streets do have a higher limit. I don't know why the limit is so low on that street.

In any case, you can bet knowing where the cameras at lights are where I live has changed my driving pattern in that I never push the limits of going through those lights at the last minute or when it's turning yellow, as those fines are really expensive where I live. I also have slowed down on streets where I know there are the speed guns or whatever they are called. It can't change the driving pattern of anyone who is only in that area that one time, of course, but that would be true for any kind of traffic ticket, as someone said.

lincasanova, it works as a deteretn simply because you never know where there is a camera. You can see some, indeed most of them, but they don't all work, all the time. Some are there just for an hour or so, some are permanent. If you know there is always a chance you will get caught you drive more carefully, certaninly after paying a fine or two. The police presence works only whilst the police are there, an hour later people are speeding again, whereas with a camera you don't know if it is working or not so you don't risk it.
Cameras in the Netherlands are also used to check you are wearing your seat belt, not using a handheld mobile (now that is an expensive fine!), not tailgating and even that you have paid the road tax and insurance on your car.
The police do all of that too -often in unmarked cars, so you are not aware of them. They will have you on film and that will be usedin evidence.

lincasanova asked: "Or am I being unreasonable?"

I think you are. And I think your suggestion that somebody should try to avoid paying a fine by using obstructive tactics is deplorable.

It's simple really: there are rules that you should know and observe; there are penalties for breaking those rules; if you are caught breaking the rules, you are subject to the appropriate penalty. If it's a fine, pay it and be relieved that it is not a driving ban or a prison sentence.

Then get on with the important things.