Relocation to Europe
 

Hello All
I may have the opportunity to work in Europe for 18 to 24 months. The dream that I share with my husband is to live in Rome. However, that location may not be possible. Other destinations that I could consider include: London, Zurich, Amsterdam, and Luxembourg. Oh, also, Australia and New Zealand. But, I am curious if anyone can comment on their thoughts regarding quality of life in these countries. (i.e. how do salaries generally compare with cost of living; are rents extremely high, quality of apartments, etc.)? Also, from a travel perspective which locations work best in terms of being able to travel to other areas of Europe. Any thoughts or comments are appreciated - thanks!

We just moved from Vancouver to London and we just love it. I am a Chartered Accountant and make about what I would make in Vancouver (i.e. if I would make 50k CDN I would be making 50K GBP). We find the cost of living about the same. We pay way more rent but we live in zone 2 of central london, but food I think is cheaper, and we dont have a car here. We find it all evens out.

Plus the travel opportunities are fantastic here. London is a hub for cheap airlines, eurostar trains etc...perfect for travel!

There is a thread by a bunch of expats floating around...I'll top it for you.

I just topped it so hopefully you will find it! Good luck!

Jamikins:
Thank you so much for your feedback, and thanks for topping the other thread. I look forward to reading it. Do you work for a Big 4 accounting firm?

I used to, but moved to work for an investment bank in Jan...

If you have any other questions let me know :)

London is a class above virtually any other city in the world - pity it's so expensive and half the world & their dog seems to live there

You could get away with speaking American in Amsterdam & Luxembourg but you'd be happier if you can speak da local lingo

It is expensive, but even more so when you are a tourist due to the exchange rate. Everyone commented on how expensive it is but we find it about equal to Vancouver...although Vancouver is very expensive as well. Just keep in mind that if you are making GBP its not as bad. If you will be making USD or CDN then it will be VERY expensive to live here.

We lived in London from the US last year. We found almost everything to cost exactly twice as much as here in Chicago. Newspapers, coffee, dry cleaning, movies, clothes, household items, etc. so the same number in dollars or pounds, such as 1.61 for a Starbucks tall coffee, or 9.50 for a first run movie. So if your salary is adjusted to the same number of pounds as dollars, great, or if you have corporate relocation package that includes housing, COLA, etc. great, but if not, not so great. As a housing example, as a 40 something couple with no kids we had a corporate housing allowance with a budget from them of 900 pounds per week (in London rents are typically quoted per week not per month) which got us a decent but not spectacular 800 square foot two bedroom furnished apartment in a central neighborhood. We had a great year but it was not cheap. It's easy enough to check out prices on line in London. As examples you could use www.foxtons.co.uk for apartment rentals, www.tesco.co.uk for groceries and such and www.johnlewis.com for clothes and household items. We didn't travel to "the continent" as much as we would have liked due to our work commitments but we had great fun exploring greater London and other parts of Southern England on day trips. We also enjoyed a lot of London theater and independent film. It's a great opportunity if you don't have to worry too much whether you are coming out exactly even in the money department compared to staying in the U.S.

I'll put in a word for Amsterdam. Accommodation can be expensive, but no where near as high as in London. It is a lively city, lots of culture, nightlife, thriving expat community. It has direct train links to Paris, Berlin etc, one of the nicest airports anywhere only 20 minutes away by train.

However if I had the chance I'd op for New Zealand :)

If you’re interested in staying in a European city and seeing Europe on a wide scale then check out the city hups for Ryan Air. London or Dublin would be the best cities because the destinations to visit for great travel prices are from those. And these cities are great. We've just come back from Ireland and Dublin is still bustling. Would be a great city to live in I think. And the poeple are so friendly. Lonon is London. You could'nt go wrong.

Well, we have a one bedroom 1000 sq foot flat in Clapham (zone 2) for 350 GBP a week. I cant even imagine having a 900 GBP a week allowance...we would be living in the lap of luxury...guess it depends on what you expect. We pay just ove 1500 GBP a month, which is expensive if you convert. But we paid 1300 CDN for our mortgage a month in Vancouver...but we make the same (90K in CDN, and 90K GBP) so its not that big of a difference for us. Totally depends on your expectations.

Oh those you mention, for me Amsterdam is the only one I could picture actually living in for a couple years.

I would do London or Amsterdam. Luxembourg is just too sleepy for me, as is Zurich, though it would rank ahead of Luxembourg. I would give Australia a hard look though.

I hesitate to comment too much on the cost side, as so much depends upon your salary and relo package. But all of the cities you mention (except Lux, maybe) will be more expensive than just about anywhere in the US or Canada.

As to travel. London has the most flights, but you are also a bit out there and will have further to travel to get to much of the rest of Europe. Amsterdam or Zurich would probably offer a decent compromise of plentiful flights and trains, as well as being geographically more convenient.

Thank you all for your thoughtful comments! They give me a lot to think about! My salary will be in the local foreign currency. But, I'm not sure what it will be. It seems like some of you were offered one for one. (i.e. if i make 90k USD I would be offered 90k GBP)?(Jamikins - I would also be relocating with a Big 4).

Also, thanks for your information on the rent details - that is very helpful.

Thanks for starting this thread Caramia. DD is interested in working in Europe when she graduates in May. Originally she planned to limit her search to England or Spain because of language. She has since discovered employers are willing to hire in other countries and pay language lessons. Does anyone know of some European job websites similar to the US ones (monster, careerbuilder, etc.)?

Hi Caramia,

My family and I moved to Zurich 18 months ago from a suburb an hour outside NYC. It has been an amazing experience and I would highly recommend it.

My comments here are just MHO and others may disagree. It's good to hear various opinions as, let's face it, we're all a bit different in our likes, needs, preferences and stage of life.

Zurich consistently ranks number one on the various "QOL" surveys and the reasons include: convenience, safety, sport, healthcare, jobs, transportation, etc. etc.

Zurich is a charming little city with easy train access to the rest of this wonderful little country and Paris as well. It does not have the excitement and activity of Rome. It has other fine qualities, however, and Rome is a short, cheap flight away. I don't know Luxembourg but I do love both Amsterdam and London. London is extremely expensive right now, and Switzerland is also very pricey esp. if you are paid in USD. Culturally, many criticize Switzerland, but I have found lots of culture here to enjoy and I actually take advantage of it unlike I did in NYC. Of course, London and Amsterdam are also culture-rich.

I would jump at the chance to live in Amsterdam and I wouldn't say no to London, although I find many British to be so negative about everything American it can be a bit of a turn-off sometimes. Perhaps that's just an ex-pat thing, as I have American friends actually in London who are happy. I have had friends who have lived in Aust. and NZ as well who had great experiences.

I love so many things about the Zurich location for a first stay in Europe. It is very central in Western Europe and so easy to get everywhere else from here, and I've traveled extensively. Plus, most in Zurich speak English which is nice if you don't speak Swiss-German. I speak some German but language is an issue to consider here esp. if you plan to work. I haven't been able to find work in my field as of yet due to the language.

Switzerland is a beautiful, clean, active country. The Swiss culture is reserved but helpful and non-judgmental if not always effusive or friendly. Yes, they have rules, and follow them, but that's key to the QOL that ensues. They don't "do" lines which is unnerving even after 18 months, but I accept this as a cultural difference and no longer take it personally.

I would not say my family or I are real well integrated into Swiss life. We have a wonderful Swiss neighbor with an American wife and they are a godsend - our true friends here. I have a few other Swiss women I'm friendly with, but they have all lived overseas so have a different point-of-view to foreigners. My kids know a few Swiss children but not closely. I don't hang out with the "American" moms - my deliberate choice - so I can be a bit lonely sometimes, although after 18 months I'm finally finding "my people."

Our apt is very nice, a bit small, in a very nice area and we pay a lot for it IMO. You will have to look at your current housing prices and compare, because we moved from an expensive NYC suburb and still found it higher here, but we are literally on the edge of the city (5 minutes by car or bus) so of course it costs more. Our tenants in our house in CT are from London and think the $5000/month rent is cheap...That income doesn't cover our rent here...but it helps with our travel costs. We get a housing allowance from the company and we looked at about 30 places before we found something in the suggested range which we thought would work for our family of 4. Okay, we could have lived in a cheaper place, but we wanted something comparable lifestyle-wise to what we left. (I don't mean in size as our place here is definitely much smaller.) Most of the ex-pats from the US I meet found the housing a big change, but you adjust quickly to less and I even enjoy having a smaller place esp. given the cost of "help."

Our car cost more here, but we only got one. In the US we really needed 2. Here we probably could have not gotten a car at all. I only fill the tank every couple of weeks which is really great. My kids take public trans to all their activities and to school and my husband takes the train to work. I'm lazy and drive to the grocery, but I could easily walk or take the bus. When I go downtown I take the tram.

Dining out, pizza, clothes shopping, groceries, dry cleaning, appliances are just really, really expensive in Switzerland compared to the US. Salaries seem comparable for very high-level jobs and better for lower level jobs. My housekeeper here makes in an hour about the same as I made as a nurse in CT. De-moralizing sometimes! I would fire her, but I already feel a bit cranky from all the "Hausfrauing" I do here compared to back home;) My daughter makes 15/hour babysitting. And she's always broke as it's expensive here for teens too.

I don't love the food so much, but if you like pasta and veal you'll be fine. I do a lot more housework, cooking, etc. here than at home just because of how expensive everything is and because appliances are much smaller (W/D, refrigerator, freezer). I don't care how good the meal is (and it's usually just average IMO), I just don't feel like paying 48 dollars for an entree out, so we cook a lot more - there is very little in prepared food or "takeout."

OTOH, I have the wonderful hiking, the gorgeous lakes, and best of all, the travel.

Just to get your mouth watering... So far I've been to Paris X 3, Normandy, Amsterdam, London, Rome, Venice, Amalfi Coast, Ravenna, Meersburg, Vienna, Salzburg, Colmar/Strasbourg, Morocco, Santorini, Southern Spain and I'm sure I've forgotten somethingg. I've seen much of Switzerland with lots more interesting trips to take here. Next week we head to Berlin. In Sept. Provence. And I still have a long wish list before the stay ends...

I'm not ready to go back "home" yet.

Let me know if you have any specific questions.

Hope this is helpful.

Good Luck!!!! don't miss this opportunity of a lifetime.

gruezi

Look at it this way: if Europeans can afford to live in Europe, why couldn't you?

I find it odd that you mention 2 non European countries, Australia and New Zealand, in among European cities.

Australia is huge, NZ tiny. Living in Sydney vastly different to Adelaide for example.

I would have jumped at the chance to work and live anywhere in Europe. I now do (from Australia) but am not allowed to work here.

We are Australians and moved to live in London. We quit our jobs at home and moved here, paying all costs ourselves and found jobs when we arrived. It hasn't all been easy but worthwhile as we love being so close to Europe.

We like London but find it expensive, especially rent and UK transport (trains particularly) but we manage OK. We do travel a LOT to Europe, you can get cheap airfares and the Eurostar is fantastic.

Some sites for jobs are
www.jobserve.com
www.reed.com (www.reed.co.uk)
www.gumtree.com

If you moved to Australia, you would have a good quality of life, the food is good there, good weather, healthy outdoors type lifestyle, good health system etc. People are friendly. But the thing to remember is you are LONG way from anywhere else. There is a lot to see within Australia but airfares can be expensive and distances vast. You would be close to NZ, Fiji, Vanuatu, New Caledonia, Bali etc which is where a lot of Aussies holiday.

Kay

<i>Look at it this way: if Europeans can afford to live in Europe, why couldn't you?</i>

But that you can afford to live in Europe does not mean that you can live as you want or are used to in Europe. The differences can be pretty dramatic, particularly if you are moving from anywhere other than a handful of US cities (New York, Boston, SF).

The biggest adjustment for many will be housing costs and what you get for your money. If you are used to a 3000+ square foot house, with a good-sized yard, you are bound to be disappointed. And even if you live in an apartment/condo, you will often be paying a fair bit more in Europe and often getting less for your money. Another big adjustment will be downsizing and/or forgoing your car. Whatever one thinks about driving vs public transportation, it is still an adjustment to go from 2+ big cars to 1 smaller car and public transit.

Other things add up too. Clothing is more expensive in all of the European cities the OP listed, often significantly so. Virtually all consumer products will also come at a premium. Dining out is more expensive, as well, particularly at the low end and the upper-middle tier. And, if coming from a larger US city, this premium will not necessarily be reflected in better quality or better selection, except in London. The others would, quite possibly, lag behind the better US dining scenes.

Of course, as you suggest, it is certainly do-able, and many ex-pat packages can make it a financial windfall, even in a place like London, but personal preference will determine whether it is worth it.

I agree with you travelgourmet -- that if you go expecting to find the same creature comforts as &quot;home&quot; you will be disappointed or broke. In a thread on saving money while traveling I believe it was sshepard who said that you will spend more money than is necessary if you bring your habits from home with you. I think the same can be said of being an expat. If I was trying to rent a house in the UK the same square footage as my house back home, including the backyard, we'd go broke in a week! The point of our adventure is not to find our American lifestyle in the UK, but to experience the UK lifestyle. I have met some American expats who almost treat living here like a treasure hunt, constantly on the lookout for things that are &quot;just like back home.&quot; They are often disappointed and frustrated. Things are different here, but if you're not here to experience those differences, what's the point?

I totally agree with the last few posts - our life in London is quite different from home. At home we have a large 3 bedroom house with a large garden, here in London we have a very small one bedroom flat, no car and no TV. That's our choice and we like it and to live somewhere larger would be too costly for us. We like having a different lifestyle here, we walk everywhere and take public transport which is terrific.

We felt there was no point moving to another country and trying to duplicate the same lifestyle.
Kay

One comment - most of the housing comparisons quote London rates - and fairly central/up-market areas at that. The sort of figures being touted (&pound;900 a week) would get your something pretty impressive just outside (ie 30 mins commute). Obviously you have to then add commuting costs, but it can still work out more cost-effective to rent in one of the home counties.

I entirely understand why people would prefer to be in the thick of things, and am not necessarily saying relocators should go for the commuter belt instead, but just wanted to correct this borderline urban myth that the UK is so prohibitively expensive you will automatically end up in a shoebox wherever you go.

I can't imagine the point of moving to a different country if it is to duplicate the lifestyle that one had at home. Part of the interest in the experience is learning what you can do without and also discovering new things that you didn't have at home.

I agree with all of the above, it definitely is not like N. America...but thats why we moved. To experience something new.

Also, I think coming for 18 - 24 months is totally different than moving permanently. There are TONNES of secondees for N. America in the Big 4 accounting firms over here.

For me, this was my experience (I cam from KPMG but have heard its the same for the other 3). KPMG brings in secondees in Sept of every year...the first week is training and you get cultural training with all the other secondees. It was great as you immediately have a network. I have some great friends already from that. These are all people in the same situation so there is a tonne of stuff to do...we plan things every weekend, people have travel buddies, and drinking buddies immediately hahahaha. I didnt really integrate into the British groups but I think thats normal from our cultural training, although they were all very nice. I moved to a bank 4 months later so cant comment on that now.

KPMG gave us a great program to move. We had a relocation specialist to help us find a place...they were great, took us around, dealt with all the agreement negotiations, set up viewings. We gave them a list of what we were looking for and they met them beautifully. We have a 1 bedroom, 1000 sq foot garden flat with a backyard and Clapham Common right across the street. We have 2 dogs so that was all important for us. All the secondees I know pay about 300 - 375 a week rent. Works out to about 1550 GBP a month.

Keep in mind most flats are not like back at home. Many are victorian terrace flats so they are over 100 years old. Part of the charm. If you want more modern you can look in the Docklands or Canary Wharf area. Tell your relocation specialist what you are looking for.

We also got a moving allowance, they paid for my hubby's visa (and would have mine, but i am a british citizen), helped arrange the moving people, paid for flights, transport from the airport and two weeks in a temp flat. Also set up all our bank accounts and credit cards, which can be a pain here. we also got a week paid to settle in.

Your goals are likely similar to all the secondees I met - travel and adventure. You arent likely coming here to make a huge amount of money, but to also help your career to learn about International accounting etc...you will find all of that and more.

I made about the equivalent as I did in Vancouver (slightly less in GBP) but we havent noticed a big difference. Keeping in mind my hubby works as well...I assume your hubby will be able to work here.

We travel at least once a month and go out alot. The allocation is different, ie. we spend more on housing...but its about the same. Perhaps thats just our spending habits hahahaha!!

One note: I go to Lux for work and it is DEAD at night...very sleepy. I also found Amsterdam a jewel, but its much smaller than London.

I hope this helps...do you have any secondees in your office you could speak with? I'd be happy to answer any questions you have.

Sorry, forgot to add...not sure what level you are at (senior, manager etc) but there is no way you could afford a flat for 900 GBP a week on the salary I was given. With two people working making hte same as we did at senior level look for around 300 - 375 GBP a week in zone 1-2. Try looking at this website for ideas:
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/search.rs...mp;s_tat=false

Amsterdam is listed 25th in the list of expensive places to live according to Mercers recent survey. Maybe you should have a look at it - http://www.mercer.com/costofliving, it may help you decide.

We've been living in Europe (Belgium, Germany, now UK) for nearly a decade and have both lived overseas before (DH has lived in London, Singapore, Hong Kong, Perth [Australia], Sydney, and Baden-Baden; I've lived in France and Liberia).

Just my opinion, but I would base the decision on these considerations:

1. Best work atmosphere. You may settle in a great place, but if you can't stand your colleagues and work is miserable, you won't enjoy it.

2. What you want from your location. If you love the outdoors, for example, then Zurich or New Zealand would be hot contenders. If you like nightlife, then Sydney, London, or Amsterdam. If you like a quiet urban setting but with lots of good food and countryside nearby, then Luxembourg. If you picture spending your free time shopping, taking in museums and attending cultural events (concerts, plays, opera), then London would be the best choice.

3. What your budget will allow and your standard of living. Unless you will be given a hefty housing allowance, London and Zurich will both be hugely expensive if you want a spacious apartment with high quality fittings. With London, you can live in nice places outside the city if you're willing to commute (Tunbridge Wells, for example). In Zurich, you'd have to live in that canton (Gruezi will correct me if I'm wrong).

3. How much you plan to travel and where you want to go. Zurich is ideally located if you want to zoom around by train. London is fine if you can stand traveling by Ryanair or Easyjet. Amsterdam is wonderful if you want to travel by train to Germany and northern Europe and you love bicycling...their bike network has to be experienced to be believed. If you want to ski during the winter months, then Zurich (it doesn't snow much there, but you're just an easy train hop from a gazillion ski resort areas).

4. Do you want to live in a place where English isn't the primary language? That was one of the things I liked best about our years in Brussels--the opportunity to speak French all day every day.

I would pick Amsterdam or Zurich first, then London, then Luxembourg. Australia would not be on our list at all (just not interested, DH has had too many Oz supervisors ;-) and we're not sun worshippers).

Finally, are you planning to bring any pets? You have quarantine issues for NZ and Australia. Generally, no problems with Amsterdam, Zurich and Luxembourg. The UK has very strict rules but your pets could avoid quarantine depending on where you come from and if you have time to do the necessary advance prep work.

Not wishing to come across as a miser or trotskyist, any future reader studying this thread as an indication of average cost and salaries in the UK might be somewhat surprised.

I believe the average UK white collar salary is somewhere between &pound;25K and &pound;30K.

<i>I believe the average UK white collar salary is somewhere between &pound;25K and &pound;30K.</i>

That would seem about right. This link pegs the average starting salary for a university grad at roughly &pound;21k:

http://www.haygroup.com/uk/media/pre...sp?PageID=9354

They also note that salary inflation was 3.5%. Assuming that this is close to the normal rate (and it might be a bit high), that would mean the average university grad would be making around &pound;28k after 10 years of work.

With inflation risking a sharp increase all over the world for the next couple of years, here is an important fact to know about Luxembourg:

<i>Luxembourg is one of the few countries that still has automatic, full linking of salaries to changes in prices (sliding scale). When the half-yearly average of the retail price index increases by 2.5 %, wages and salaries are increased by the same amount.When collective bargaining agreements or pay agreements in the public sector are signed, negotiations do not relate to any adaptation of salaries to reflect inflation.</i>

Wow, thats really interesting about Lux! Hmmm....hahaha

Thank you for your replies - this is great information! My other concern is - how will my husband find a a job? Will this be a difficult task? (securing work permit / visa etc.)

Hi Caramia,

You should talk to your employer about that. My hubby got a settlement visa as I am a UK citizen. My former firm arranged for work visas/permits for my fellow secondees and their spouses. I imagine it would be the same for you.

&quot;that would mean the average university grad would be making around &pound;28k after 10 years of work.&quot;

Simply untrue. And absolutely NOT what the Hay Group press release was saying.

Hay are making the point that graduate starting salary levels aren't inflating as fast as salaries generally. That's got nothing to do with a graduates' salary progression once they've got jobs.

The whole point of hiring graduates is you're recruiting next year's promise - not this year's likely performance. That's why graduate starting salaries are about the same as national average earnings, but UK graduates, on average, earn 40%-50% more than average.

10 years after graduation, my salary was over 10 times the average graduate starting salary of a decade earlier. The really high inflation back then (not to mention my extraordinary genius) were partly responsible - but most ordinarily talented and motivated graduates should expect about a 50% salary hike in real terms (ie on top of inflation) over their first ten years at work.

Oh and in the UK you mostly get work through a recruiter. There are websites you can post your resume on and recruiters will call and act as a go between for him and the employers. What field is he in? My hubby is in IT and found a job within 3 weeks.

My husband is an attorney, licensed here... I'm not sure what type of work would be available/appropriate for him - and what type of work he would want to do...

Hi caramia,

unlikely that your husband could work actually as a lawyer, [ie practice in his own right as a solicitor or barrister] but his own professional organiseation should know that.

however, if he can get a work permit, no reason why he shouldn't work for a lawyer. Depending on his speciality, he might apply to the big city firms [assuming you've chosen london] to work as a paralegal, or if he does crime, to a criminal firm who might employ him as an &quot;outdoor clerk&quot;. this would get him to court accompanying clients and counsel, preparing statments, etc. etc.

this would be easier for him in England as the language would be [almost] the same!

regards, ann

Thanks Ann - interesting thought. Have you done this line of work?