Regarding the Topless Post
 

Sorry to create a stir. The thread seems to be closed. I have no problem with nudity. I also have taken nude photography classes and have nude art. In fact if it makes you happy I'll type this in the nude. We see people sometimes at the beaches here although it is illegal.

We went to the French Caribbean on our honeymoon and some perfect 10 was frolicking around in the water. It is a bit of an issue in our family because I had chest cancer surgery. So you can see my thoughts about my husband enjoying the scenery too much or the fact that my 4 year old may say something embarrassing. My post was light-hearted though. If I was really small minded I wouldn't travel to the Riviera. And surprise- my husband is from NYC and we go there often.

This post made me to open the original one :) Here is the URL:

http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...amp;dirtyBit=1

Oh, NOOOOOOOO the wrong link!!!

Can somebody please to post the correct link? I don't know why I can't master this!

islandmom,

My mother had a masectomy when I was young and she is still very sensitive to this day about the issue, so I understand your anxiety.

It's unfortunate, but sometimes we Fodorites forget to ask for all the info before we flame away.

I didn't see all of the original post and can't find it any more, but I hope you were given some useful advice at least.

Jill

No doubt your husband will show you the courtesy and love not to -enjoy- the scenery in your presence after your surgery. But that is not something the people here can confirm for you.

Your four year old will be fine if you just say that is how it is done here and if he wants to say something to you about it let him do so quietly.

Funny line about typing in the nude, BTW.

Have a great trip and relax, it is a beautiful place to visit.

Oh and I must share this amusing tidbit. I can't wait to see the portrait book. Interestingly it may find itself in bookstores next to my series of books. I'm the creator of an Hawaiian educational character that teaches about DIVERSITY, the environment, safety, health and MANNERS. It's based on my multi-racial family.

islandmom, I'm delighted to hear more about thoughts behind your post. You sound much cooler now than you did in your original thread. You made me laugh so hard, I decided to strip right here in my studio, in front of my entire staff of five, and write this note to you naked.

One of my closest girlfriends had both breasts removed due to cancer and I'm sorry to hear of your health struggle. My friend had successful reconstructive surgery and she and her husband sunbathe nude on their beach in Connecticut and on the beach in the South of France (where they own a home). Your personal concerns are much clearer with this new thread. Good luck to you.

IMO, any 4-year-old can say whatever he or she thinks. There's no such thing as embarrassing at that age.


ps <i>&quot;I think this comment was supposed to have something to do with how humans should behave.</i>

Wrong, again, Patrick. I'm not surprised you didn't get the intended meaning but I'm happy I supplied you with a laugh.

Needless to say we won't hear what the &quot;intended&quot; meaning about &quot;do other primates dress for a swim?&quot; really was. Since it wasn't supposed to have anything to do with comparison of human and other primate behaviors, I'm at a loss what it WAS intended to be. But it's much easier to put down someone as being too ignorant to understand, than it is to explain how such a statement made any sense at all. Since, of course, the statment DIDN'T make any sense at all.

One or two times a week I drive cancer patients to radiation therapy and occasionally for chemo. The majority are breast cancer patients. These are some beautiful and brave ladies of all ages.

I'll take this opportunity to advertise the Road to Recovery program of the American Cancer Society and ask you to volunteer to be a driver.

Thank you.

Here you go Faina. :)

http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34569638

When you have the post open in your window, just right click its title, just above the first post, and click copy. Then you can paste it into a post.

<i>&quot;But it's much easier to put down someone...&quot;</i>

You should know, dear. Try practicing what you preach.

I'll take bare breasts any day to two faces.

I like Lewis Grizzard's comment on the difference between nude and nekkid.
Nude means you don't have any clothes on. Nothing wrong with it; we were born that way. Nekkid means you don't have any clothes on but you are up to something.
Venus de Milo is mostly nude.
There are a lot of movie starlets to whom you can ascribe the appelation &quot;nekkid.&quot;
I think most of the prudish types seem to have some latent fear that nudity equates to nekkid, which it does not.

foodsnob...

i'm so glad that you now think islandmom is &quot;cooler&quot; now that she laid down her liberal/enlightened credentials with you. i'm sorry for this forum that she felt she had to do that after getting slammed for a harmless post in the original thread on this topic.

i've been stateside enough where i think i know what's going on. the pathetic cultural war in the US has stooped to such lows that the &quot;liberal&quot; side is on a witch hunt of its own.

your pompous, condescending posts belie your militant &quot;born-again&quot; type discovery of an enlightened way of life after escaping from the hum-drum of ohio to the self-appointed enlightened mecca of NYC.

here in europe, we are well aware of the middle american attitudes toward the body and most of us just accept that is part of your culture. there is no need to lecture on enlightenment. Puritanism is part of your culture and there is no need to be ashamed of that.

When I see some of those German and Italian bodies in (or out of) those skimpy swimsuits, Puritanism suddenly becomes a viable alternative.

Unfortunately, I do remember one particularly whale-like couple cavorting about in the nude in Munich's English Garden. &lt;Shudder&gt;

On the other hand, as a 12 year old camping my way thru Bavaria, Austria, and Italy in 1960 with my parents, aunt and uncle and cousin, I have such fond memories of seeing my first topless ladies on a beach somewhere on the Italian Riviera.

My cousin Jeanie and I headed to the beach while the adults set up camp. A few minutes later Jeanie was running back to the camp area informing all that &quot;Rufus is at the beach looking at ladies with no bras on and he won't leave even though I told him he'd get into BIG trouble.&quot;

My father and uncle came to retrieve me. We returned to camp a good hour later.

I don't think modesty is a bad trait.

Rufus - Loved your story. My husband has tears in his eyes from laughing so hard.

I haven't kept up with this forum for a few days, so I was wondering what you all were talking about. This must be the previous thread: http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34569638

Thank you FoodSnob for my second big laugh of the day. I notice you haven't explained yet how I &quot;didn't understand&quot; your meaningless post. Once again, it is so much easier to act like someone was too ignorant to understand your post, when clearly it was meaningless to begin with. Instead, let's just turn the tables and call that person two faced. Huh?

The tax returns were either going towards Europe or a boob job (I've still got mine- just not as lovely)

Europe won! At least this year ; )

I don't undestand the reason for these rants. I've been to a nude beach on Cape Cod. It was no big deal (tho I thought it would be. It's not my style but I enjoyed that one day.

islandmom, I just wanted to wish you a wonderful trip.

Coming from a family who has dealt with your dilemma, I can tell that you are a brave woman who will not let the physical aspects of others stir you. However, you understandably want to know how to prepare your children for things that they are unaccustomed to seeing on a regular basis in the American culture.

I'm sure all will go well and you will have a fabulous time as a family. We will look forward to hearing about your trip. Bon voyage!

islandmom - I can't begin to understand what you have been through, but I can say that you are a good sport, in light of all the nonsense and insensitivity posted here. And, I don't know how old you are, but PLEASE don't feel bad about &quot;yours&quot; not being as lovely. I'm sure most of us are in the same boat, simply by virtue of age!

Wonderful travels to you and yours.

I did not read the original posts and only wrote on the title. So let me say this. Breasts are not the main thing that makes us sexy or real woman, no matter what the media says. I remember as a young girl I was called mosquito
bumbs and a schoolmate had huge boobs
I had more dates tho they lusted at her boobs. A later note. When we were grown-ups. Clothes never looked great because her boobs were too big.

Rufus, You are so funny..:)

Yes indeed Rufus, that was a precious story.

It reminds me of the time my DH went to a beach in N CA. As usual we took a long walk, and climbed over quite a cliff to get to the next beach.

On the next beach was a beautiful suntanned blond bathing topless. With her was quite a handsome fellow.

We turned back, scrambled down the cliff and walked back to where we had put our beach items. Lo and behold who was walking toward us but a fellow from our small town. The most uptight, narrow minded person you could ever meet.

But naturally we said &quot;hello, how surprising to see you here&quot; etc. He said that his family was in a motel about five miles away, but he had wanted an early morning walk on the beach. He asked my husband where we had walked to. My DH chuckled and said &quot;well we walked way down that way and climbed over the cliff but we didn't go any further as on the other side we looked down on a beautiful blonde sunbathing topless, and we sure did not want to intrude on their space&quot;.
With that this fellow took off running and we never saw anyone scramble over the cliff as fast as he did!

Then he came back much much later grumbling &quot;that was disgusting, people have no morals anymore, grumble, grumble&quot;. We never stopped laughing about that.

Speaking of primates and breasts...

There was this AP piece this morning:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...orilla_lawsuit

islandmom,
congratulations on your decision of how to spend those tax returns! And even more congratulations on your continuing survival from breast cancer.

There are probably very few of us whose lives have not been touched in some way by breast cancer, and it's unfortunate that the tone of some of the responses to your OP was such that you thought you had to justify your rather simple question.

I may have once visited those beaches in the French Caribbean you mention, but the fact is, there were many families there, with kids of all ages.
As I believe is also true of the beach here on Fire Island ( the Family one), and the ones on the Jersey Shore. I think it will be quite easy to handle this with a young child, IF they ask, by not over- dramatizing the issue of toplessless.
Have a wonderful time with your family!

Rufus, your story was simply the best!! I love to start the day with a laugh... it's a warm-hearted story, thanks for sharing it.

walkinaround,
well said, but let me give you a small tip, here in America, we are quite a bit more diverse in our attitudes about everything than you there in Europe might realize, but your experience of that fact may be limited to just the travelers you've seen, who knows?
In my travels, the best lesson I've learned is not to make blanket assumptions about other cultures.

There is nothing more puritanical than a demand, backed up by condescension and ridicule, that someone conform to a 'party line' on any given issue. I too was distressed to see you justify your question, since in no way should the victims of rude behaviour need to be the ones making the apologies. The irony is just too much, that you were mocked for exposing your feelings, even as those who mocked you congratulated themselves for how cool they were about the exposure of flesh.

That said, your comments about your husband 'enjoying the scenery too much' coupled with your phrase 'perfect 10' have me concerned, for all its lightheartedness. Islandmom, there is nobody, and I mean nobody, who does not have an Achilles heel of inadequacy on some issue. Those who maintain otherwise are lying or deluded or both. With or without surgery, many women - and many men also - long to have a body that will be accepted and admired, which unfortunately never seems to correspond with the body that they have.

But tolerance and appreciation for differences lies in the observer, not in the holder of the differences. Those who brag that travel has made them tolerant, and who would not otherwise dream of saying the equivalent of 'the Louvre is fat' or 'someone really ought to tell the French to cover up their language' have no trouble doing so in this category. This proves, sadly, that your sensitivity on this issue is not misplaced.

On the other hand it proves that the whole business is more out of your hands - and the surgeon's - than you might fear. Remember that on both sides of the Atlantic, we live in a culture of advertising. True, we instinctively recognize 'beauty' to a certain extent, but those who are deemed beautiful have bodies (and faces) that can be shown to be not so much superlative as symmetrical, an averaging out of all the deviations from the mean that occur in the general population. But I don't think this totally explains the obsessions we have about bodies today. A 'perfect 10' body is like Pepsi or Coca-cola; in other words, the notion of 'perfect 10' is the creation of marketing, not nature.

In any case, I am troubled to think that perhaps your most secret fear is that it is your husband that will be embarrassed, and by you. If this is your concern, then it is time to take matters back into your own hands, and conduct a little marketing campaign of your own. Exposing oneself literally - even in a swimsuit - can take as much courage as it takes to expose oneself figuratively, as you have just found out in your thread. But courage is beautiful, islandmom. It's time courage took its place in the sun. :)

bare breast are cool.

Dear islandmom,

I accept that nudity is controversial for some but I have no apologies for how I feel about puritanical attitudes or the narrow-minded concept that naked-must-mean-desiring-of-sex.

I accept that many here love to characterize my ramblings as rude and condescending. I give them plenty of ammunition. (I do wonder if they own a mirror when they make such judgments.)

islandmom, if we met socially and you shared your concerns with me, I would offer as much warm-hearted guidance as I could muster. My mother died of cancer and I was by her side every day of her year-long battle. I know what naked means in this context.

Also, had you said things differently in your first post, I would have responded in a very different manner. That's all you need to know about me.

Best wishes.

If you don't like seeing it, don't look at it. If you like seeing it so much that it upsets your Significant Other, take a hint.

When I read the title, I thought: Wouldn't a topless post just be a stump? No, that would be a topless tree. Then what's a topless post called?

Sitting that aside, I thought about that original stir &quot;should they care, shouldn't they care&quot;. Now, I do think I lean a little liberal, and I generally feel uneasy about the latest anti-whatever cause from the right.

But I thought - would people say those same things to a conservative Muslim? Go to Thailand or Japan and mock their conservative ways (or the same if they were to visit)? Or would people be infinitely understanding and gently inform these folks of what to expect of the Riviera area with sage advice on whether to go or how to avoid embarrassment?

If you just thought about that, and thought that you'd not ridicule the Thai or or Omani for asking such a question, why would you if it was a 30 yr old Baptist mother from Orange Co? Is she suppose to &quot;know better&quot; while your Thai questioner isn't - or is she not as entitled to cultural beliefs - or is it that she's just an easy target?

For those not from NYC, the only bastion of free-thinking in this small-minded nation, here is a translation:

``I accept that many here love to characterize my ramblings as rude and condescending. I give them plenty of ammunition. ''
-- translation: Hmmmm, I might be rude and condescending. Naw.

``if we met socially and you shared your concerns with me''
--translation: But on fodor's, I just rant away.

``had you said things differently in your first post, I would have responded in a very different manner.''
--translation: I jumped to a conclusion, but it was all your fault.

Islandmom,
Have a great trip. BTW, our son's first experience with the topless/nude beaches was at Kehena on the Big Island when he 9. All he talks about the the fabulous black sand ...

So true, repete.
Meanwhile among those rantings was a silly comment about how no other primates wear bathing suits. When I questioned what in the world that had to do with anything, I was treated as the &quot;idiot&quot; who didn't &quot;understand&quot; the reference, as if the comment was so brilliant that my simple mind couldn't comprehend the true meaning of it. But despite several requests for an explanation, all I got were more insults, not an explanation of what it could possibly mean, since of course it was such a totally silly thing to say to begin with -- but sounded impressive, I suppose. Such rantings are just that -- rantings -- never to be questioned by anybody. And if anyone should question them, well, then let's just attack that questioner as being too stupid to understand.

what do you people expect from someone who uses the word snob in his name? nyfoodsnob is the reason so many of us new yorkers get a bad name. the epitome of snobbishness, know-everything, and loud-mouthed. was the statment about stripping in front of the entire staff of 5 supposed to impress us?

I realize that FoodSnob has many other personal issues to deal with and she comes here to try and be superior. I feel a bit sorry for her actually and I don't want to know who she is, why would I?

These things do happen I suppose. I continue to think that any concerns about a husband/partner/lover &quot;enjoying the scenery too much&quot; and all that those feelings might imply should best be disussed elsewhere.

I love it when someone calls another person 'narrow minded'. It's been my experience that people who toss that comment around tend to be the most closed minded people I've ever met.

Anyone who DOESN'T agree with THEM is closed minded. LOL

No doubt Snob (and you are right Earl, people like her/him do give Ny'ers a bad name) considers herself/himself to be tolerant. But there is nothing less tolerant than tolerant person.

Thank you, repete. As Islandmom had to point out, we are all a lot more dimensional that we can appear by one posting to one thread. To judge one person's value system by one paragraph that they wrote is misguided. It's amazing how some feel that they are psychologists able to analyze people based on a few words that they wrote.

&lt;&lt;No doubt Snob (and you are right Earl, people like her/him do give Ny'ers a bad name)&gt;&gt;

Minor point, because I'd rather not get too involved in this discussion: NYFoodSnob has mentioned several times that she's from Ohio, so maybe whatever name/reputation/stereotype she's giving a place should be given to the midwest, or at least to midwestern transplants.