Rail travel between France and the Low Countries
 

I've just booked a flight to Brussels (from Australia) and I leave in three weeks. Obviously there's not much time to do research. I know loads about travelling by rail around Japan, but nothing much about Europe. So my question is, how much is it to purchase rail tickets by cash? Is it better for me to get a pass, or should I be able to get along with cash fares? (I am not looking for an answer in money terms, just what I might save.) Also, if there any links I should also check, I'd be appreciative.

Here is my itinerary:
Brussels > Paris
Paris > Marseilles
Marseilles > Amsterdam
Amsterdam > Brussels (to go home)

Thanks in advance for your replies.

Your itinerary indicates that one of the Saver Passes would work for you. See http://www.budgeteuropetravel.com/. If you can call speak to Byron or Linda for plenty of helpful no-obligation advice. For an introduction to using the trains in Europe see http://tinyurl.com/eym5b. The German Rail site is user friendly and has train information for throughout Europe. See http://tinyurl.com/c9jp54.

www.seat61.com

Best info see pass discussion pass usually poor value

unless you train relentlessly on regional/intercity trains

DAILY you almost NEVER make your pass cost per day + shipping

Always just hop regional/intercity trains from 5 euro/hr

like a local works great for me.

Happy Planning,

"Here is my itinerary:
Brussels > Paris
Paris > Marseilles
Marseilles > Amsterdam
Amsterdam > Brussels (to go home)"

Have you considered Brussels - Amsterdam - Paris - Marseilles - fly home using open jaws / multi-city city (or low costs airline to Brussels from Nice). Makes a more logical routing.

Even better, start in the south of France and work north to Brussels - then you can get the jet lag out of your system flying Brussels to Nice.

Here is my itinerary:
Brussels > Paris
Paris > Marseilles
Marseilles > Amsterdam
Amsterdam > Brussels (to go home)"

< pass usually poor value

unless you train relentlessly on regional/intercity trains

DAILY you almost NEVER make your pass cost per day + shipping

Always just hop regional/intercity trains from 5 euro/hr>

Simply ignore this misinformation and patently false advice - I've had 100 and more railpasses and they have all been a great deal without traveling every day, etc. To make such a sweeping generalization is just misinformation - I can think of several railpasses where just a few trips can make a pass pay off - and it depends on whether you want flexibility or not - you can book the so-called PREM fares in France but to guarantee you must often do so months in advance and then cannot change them, etc. But a pass can be used on any train (though in France some TGV lines like Paris to Avignon and Nice can be problematic to get on just by showing up and you should make those seat reservations when you buy the pass - in your case the France-Benelux Pass is IMO a no-brainer due to your several train trips outlined. And in Belgium and Netherlands you just go to the station and board any train anytime practically - except Thalys trains, which do charge a sizeable surcharge for railpass holders - but you need not deal with the Thalys if say you go from Bruges (much nicer to most than Brussels) to Paris via Lille and from Marseilles you take a TGV to Brussels then a regular IC train to Amsterdam, with only a few euros seat reservation fee.

IMO ignore quovadis and a number of other Fodorites who say that a railpass is ALWAYS a waste of money as they simply do not know of what they speak and to make such a generality belies belief.

Again strongly investigate the France-Benelux railpass for your previsioned itinerary.

Re Brussels - if you have chosen Brussels because you are landing there and have heard of it I understand but to many going straight away to Bruges - or the next day after landing - would be infinitely more enjoyable to most - Bruges being one of northern Europe's most romantic and gorgeous cities - with old Flemish warhouses lining cute quays extant from days when Bruges was one of the world's busiest ports until the port silted up, leaving Bruges high and dry and stagnating whilst Antwerp took over the port role.

anyway Bruges will fulfill your idea of a romantic old-world Europe whislt to many Brussels, a big basically modern busy city will not (not to say Brussels does not have pluses it does but a romantic look and feel it ain't) - anyway going between Bruges and Paris via Lille is only 2.5 hours - and you can use a railpass on that route with just a 3 euro seat reservation fee and not have to deal with the expensive Thalys that charges railpass holders $35-40 supplement, etc.

Always just hop regional/intercity trains from 5 euro/hr

like a local works great for me.>

well it won't work for the OP or it will take virutally all day to take local trains you advise from say Marseilles to Brussels - let's see and about five changes of train - local from Marseilles to Avignon - Avignon to Lyon - Lyon to Dijon - Dijon to Paris and then Paris to Lille and Lille to Brussels - this would be the route I surmise by taking 'local' or regional trains and would take about two days vs about 5 hours on direct TGVs. Not practical in this case though in some countries if not traveling long distances I too enjoy even more the local trains - but they do take a lot longer - I recently took a regional train Rome to Florence and it took about 3.5 hours vs less than 90 minutes I think on the Eurostar high-speed train.

The take slower local train advice is more pertinent to trains in countries like Germany, Switzerland and Austria but definitely not in France nor going between France and Belgium, where there are it seems practically no local trains that cross the border, thus is not even possible.

Sydney - If you're off to Brussels very shortly chances are you're another who snapped up the excellent Qatar Airways promo fare. For rail travel also see my current thread on problems with booking via Rail Europe. Have a good trip (I'm following in March).

Thanks PalenQ for your advice. I have been polling several different places, and most agree that a rail pass is probably the most convenient method. I'm starting to hit the ground running at checking all things rail and Europe (thanks to spaarne and qwovadis for the links.)

What I am shocked about though is the face that once I have the pass I have to pay again to book a seat on a train. Coming as I mention from Japan where once I have a pass all I need to do in most cases is to flash my pass and I am on the train the Eurorail passes appear all too bureaucratic and pricey. I also feel kinda locked in into having to reserve seats, it takes away the spontaneity of travel- just hopping on a train and jaunting away. Please tell me I am mistaken :)

I'm landing in Brussels because, as farrermog says, I'm taking up the Qatar Airways offer. I'm really only in Brussels to land and then leave. I read your thread farrermog, I'm looking to book my rail pass locally, at railplus.com.au.

Oops, that should be <i>"What I am shocked about though is the <b>fact</b> that once I have the pass I have to pay again to book a seat on a train."</i>

Sydney - yeah, the reservations required by pass holders on fast trains these days are a pain - you can still jump on other trains without a reservation though - I might get a France/ Benelux or combo with Germany pass to do just that after I've finished in Paris - but I wouldn't be using fast trains as I'd be pottering around the backblocks on this trip - in which case I might just purchase point to point.

One thing about Railplus - in the absence of a local RE phone number I phoned RP after my booking problem as I'd noticed RP's address was the default for RE's hard copy tickets issued in Australia. Despite that and after commenting that my problem had been experienced by others recently, they said they couldn't help me. So if I'm after a pass I won't be purchasing it directly from Rail Plus.

Sydney - sorry - I'd ordered an e ticket not a hard copy, but still was not impressed that RP didn't want to know about my problem - they do have a connection with RE afterall, even if just for the hard copy tickets and I may have experienced the same problem with my credit card being rejected but processed (!!) had I tried booking a hard copy (I noticed their default address when toying with the possibility of getting a hard copy ticket but was confused when their address showed up as the shipping address and so opted for the e ticket to 'make sure'!). I would think though that a straight hard copy pass purchase mightn't have those dramas.

Please tell me I am mistaken>

Not if talking about France, Italy and Spain but in most other countries, including Belgium and Holland and Germany, Switzerland, austria,,, you can indeed still hop almost any train anytime.

But in France yes have to pay 3 euros for each seat reservation on TGV trains - many others you can just hop on. But the Thalys train between Paris, Brussels and Amsterdam charges to me a rip-off 30 or so euros supplement to railpass holders - this is why I would consider going to Bruges (wondrous city anyway) and then taking local train to Lille and TGV (3 euro seat reservation) to Paris and 3 euros each Paris to Marselilles and Marseilles to Brussels - then take IC train you can just hop on to Amsterdam - in all that's about 8 euros extra or about $15 added incurred costs - I do agree that this is a pain to have to do but in your case the pass could save you money and give you a bit more flexibility it seems.

What about grabbing a flight from Brussels to southern France when you arrive? Saves the same
long train trip once south then again north...

@ParisAmsterdam I was thinking that perhaps it would be easier for me because I am at Brussels airport to hop on another plane and fly down to Paris- problem is that the only direct flights I could find are in the morning, and the other flights went via Britain and took over 6 hours. Also I am only needing to be Marseille for the weekend (convention).

@PalenQ According to the test booking I made, purchasing the cheapest first class Thalys e-ticket one way from Brussels to Paris from their website is €78.00. If I purchase a Benelux France Eurail pass and then make a reservation with the same destination the ticket costs- €57.00! (This is from Railplus.com.au)

Regarding the itinerary you described above (Brussels/Bruges/Lille/Paris), how would that work? I just purchase a ticket at each of the stations without needing to make reservations? (I note that using the German rail site's search page the trip takes 4 hours 40 minutes.)

Anyway, I think I am getting my head around it. Farrermog, would you recommend RailEurope Australia?

Sydney - the Bruges-Lille-Paris route yes IME you could buy the tickets as you go or if you have a railpass make the needed reservation in Lille if need be. But if you do the France-Benelux Pass then you may for convenience want to pay a little extra to have the agent selling you the pass - perhaps RailEurope Aussie - make the resrvation when you buy the pass - just for peace of mind. More on this later. Gotta run.

Cheers

Sydney - RE Aust is to courier a hard copy ticket to me in lieu of my e ticket stuff-up which they have acknowledged was due to a 'systems error' (as per my thread 'Problems with RE booking'). Who knows whether that problem likely to happen again - Rail Plus told me it has been happening a bit recently. RE Aust has been pretty good to deal with by email - problem is no phone number if things go wrong and you'd like a quick fix and the good fare options are fading. Their local email (email enquiries to the RE site are apparently bounced to RE Aust after the Euro office opens which could be some time after) is - [email protected]

I've also been looking at walk-up no reservation reqd options for Brussels/ Paris in case my flight's late and I can't get on an alternative fast train. And yeah, from what I can see on bahn.de (which is what I'm using for the rest of my rail planning) it's also poss to go say Brussels or Bruges /Tournai/ Lille/ Cambrai/ St Quentin or combo if you have to.

Agree with PalenQ - we took non-Thalys trains Paris-Brugge through Lille and the trains are nice and agree Brugge is a HIGHLY suggested part of your itinerary. Also, please note the Belgian Train personnel are maybe the most helpful/knowlegeable folks in Europe and their language skills are superb. So, do not feel you have to have all the answers before leaving.

Farrermog, I might go with Railplus- I know that my pass will come quick smart, and I have only two more weekends to go. I'll also not book the Brussels to Paris fare, and wait until I land and talk to the staff at the train station at the airport (as docdan suggests.)

Just as a note though, as much as people suggest I should I really don't plan to stop in Bruges and look around. I really just want to land, get on the train and go to Paris. So, anyone want to describe to me the benefits of another four hours sitting down in a train (going via Bruges/Lille) after 20 odd hours sitting on an aircraft? *grin*

. I'll also not book the Brussels to Paris fare, and wait until I land and talk to the staff at the train station at the airport (as docdan suggests.)>

If it is a Thalys train you are talking about then you could literally pay $100 or more just by showing up and having to nuy perhaps a full fare ticket if cheaper tickets are exhausted, which is not usunusual IME - go to www.thalys.com and book early and save often lots and lots of money - like someone above said the cheaper Thalys tickets may be as cheap as the passholder supplement and you need not burn up a day on your pass.

PalenQ: <i>like someone above said the cheaper Thalys tickets may be as cheap as the passholder supplement and you need not burn up a day on your pass.</i>

I think that was me! :)

oops - telling you what you told me! sorry!

Some experience with passholder fares on the Thalys train - last Christmas I asked in a French station about using my Eurailpass to go from Paris to Amsterdam on the Thalys train. And I was told that there were no -none - no pass holder reservations for the next three days and then only on the fourth day on the very last train. So if having a pass and wishing to use it on Thalys I suggest booking that way in advance - Thalys trains have become really popular, knocking even many flights off the Paris to Brussels and Amsterdam routes.

I ended up doing an end around the Thalys between Paris and Brussels by taking the RER to CDG Airport's TGV station then taking a normal french TGV to Brussels then an IC train to Amsterdam - took me about two hours longer but I only paid a 3 euro seat reservation fee for the CDG to Brussels TGV and no other extra fees.

Wow- that's a salutary lesson, thanks for the warning. I was planning to book my Thalys trip to Paris at the website but book the return at the train station. I have a bit more time to play with on the return so Paris to Amsterdam via Lille/Bruge may be a better route on the way back north.

Just a question though you mention <i>taking a normal french TGV to Brussels</i>- is that not a good route to get to Brussels? I can't take the TGV from the Gare Nord station?

Wait PalenQ, you're talking about the Eurostar train?

No TGVs go from Paris Nord to Brussels - direct - there are only Thalys trains serving that route. The end around is like I did - RER to CDG then TGV to Brussels - otherwise it is all Thalys trains Paris-Nord to Brussels.

No TGVs go from Paris Nord to Brussels - direct - there are only Thalys trains serving that route. The end around is like I did - RER to CDG then TGV to Brussels - otherwise it is all Thalys trains Paris-Nord to Brussels.

Ah, I see- so would you recommend booking the TGV from Charles DeGaulle?

OK, got my rail pass in the mail today. Gee, there seems to be a lot of rules in using it. I hope I don't do anything wrong O_O;

Another question, how likely is it that if I try to book a high speed train seat a couple of days early, or even at the ticket booth there won't be any rail pass seats left? Is train travel that popular that it's more than likely? Considering it will still be winter when I am there is that a better time for travelling?

sydney - answering your last post - only in Franc and on Thalys trains have i encountered any problems gtting mandated seat reservations on high-speed or any train. Just those two in decades of incessant European rail travel - so be only concernd with France and French TGVs and Thalys - and yes an option to the expensive Thalys trains if you have a railpass os to book a Brussels to CDG arport TGV and then you can also use your railpass to go into Gare du Nord in Paris centrum with the railpass. Once in Paris book your return Marseilles to Brussels TGV well ahead of time.

Thanks PalenQ- I think I have everything worked out now. Thanks again for the invaluable assistance!

bookmarked

1. Brussels to Paris. Using www.thalys.com, and picking a random date in April, I'm seeing a fare of 45 euros if you book in advance (no refunds, no changes to travel plans) or 90 euros flexible fare, in other words the fare you'd pay on the day of travel..

So by all means turn up and pay cash, but you'll pay double! I don't suppose you're buying your plane ticket to Europe for cash at the airport on the day!

Can a railpass (with the $13 Thalys reservation fee, shipping and handling fees added) compete with the 45 euro fare (which includes reservation, and you print your own ticket, so no fees whatsoever?)

2. Paris-Marseille: Again picking a random date in April, this time using www.tgv-europe.com, I'm seeing 'Prems' fares from as little as 35 euros if yoiu pre-book, again self-print with zero fees and TGV reservation included. The flexible 'on the day' fare is about 91 euros.

On neither of these runs is there any realistic non-TGV/Thalys alternative.

Brussels-Amsyterdam there IS a choicem, hourly InterCity train, 3 hour journey, fixed fare about 30 euros, or Thalys, 1h55, cheap fares from 30 euros in advance, expensive fares on the day. Your call!

(with the $13 Thalys reservation fee>

Man - is not the Thalys passholder fare much more expensive than $13? More like $30? Where does the $13 come from.

Thanks

Well one year ago I was quoted 34 euros as a passholder supplement Paris to Amsterdam on Thalys. Once again Man in Seat 61 - has that been lowered?

Well annoyingly the Railplus people have told me that the Marseille to Brussels TGV train I put on my schedule is all booked out, and I have to stop at Paris Lyon and then travel to Paris Nord to catch the Thalys train to Brussels. Now, assuming the Railplus people aren't idiots, the 40 or so minutes (I think) between trains should be enough time to make the connection. Is there anything I need to think about to make the transfer smoothly?

I would advise calling Byron at Budget Europe - 800-441-2387 - if he says no seats for passholders available then quit looking. But worth a tgry - I have bought railpasses from his agency for years and can attest to the great personal service. Anyway worth a shot - transferring in Paris to Thalys is terrible and a lot more expensive. and you could also try to book say Lyon to Brussels and take another TGV from Marseilles to Lyon, etc. Certain segments may be fully booked but others may not and from Lyon I think you have more TGVs to Brussels perhaps than from Marseilles.

Oops - brain fart - I forgort you are from Down Under - contact RailEurope australia or I have been told that you can book seats only on www.bahn.de - the German Railways web site even though you have a pass and only need a seat reservation.

Hi PalenQ, there isn't enough time to look for alternatives and still get my tickets before Friday (I leave on Sunday) so I just spent the extra and am going with Thalys.

A quick look at the Paris Metro shows the RER D train (the green line) goes from Gare d'Lyon to Gare d'Nord via Chatelet Les Halles (the only stop), so I figue I may need to purchase a ticket before hand to facilitate a quick transfer onto the RER platform. Hopefully that will work out, but I may need to speak to someone at the station before I head south.