Please help alleviate unease with apartment rental!!
 

We are down to the final two apartment options for our family trip to Rome during the Christmas holidays this year. DH is starting to get very easy about renting a place from a website or agency. He's concerned that the place will not be as it appears in the photos or that it won't be available or exist at all. We've had a deposit requested by end of day tomorrow (11/1) and the balance due in cash when we arrive. Is this normal....has anyone had a bad experience with apartment rental? One flat is thru 'fromhometorome' , the other is thru VRBO. I'd prefer to do everything with a credit card so there is recourse if necessary but that option is not open. Does using PayPay linked to a credit card offer any protection??

Thanks -

We prefer to use an agency and check if they are rated by Better Business Bureau and/or belong to any travel associations. Usually these are posted on the bottom of their webpage.
One agency said a celebrity had rented one of their places and I followed it up by going to the celebrity's webpage to look for any mention of it and there it was, a recommendation.

>>>We've had a deposit requested by end of day tomorrow (11/1) and the balance due in cash when we arrive. Is this normal.<<<

Yes, it's pretty normal. Many places are listed with multiple agencies so there might be a credit card option if listed through another agency.

We have mailed checks for deposit to a special bank account in the US. Then right before leaving home, a sexond check was sent to the bank account. Another used Pay Pal exclusively. We have never had a provlem with a large number of Eurpopean rentals but it pays to be carefuland xhexk them out before xommitting your money.

I have rented vacation apartments through the internet, both directly with owners, and also through vrbo (just last month) for YEARS, and never had a problem. Payment in full, upon arrival, is standard IME. In all cases, the apartment fully lived up to the photos, or the hosts were only too eager to fix shortcomings.

Ok - thanks for the suggestions. I was also thinking of reserving hotel rooms with a cancellation allowed just in case. Its all probably an over reaction on DH's part -

the arrangement you have been offered is absolutely standard for Italy.

we took have had excellent experiences renting apartments both in Rome and other cities, and they have been great.

remember - the owner has an investment in this too - they want your money! if it's not up to scratch when you arrive, they run the risk they you will turn tale and find the nearest hotel.

good luck!

First exp. with VRBO in Puerto Rico last week. Wonderful!! Not Europe but same agency thing.The people that do this sort of rental have an investment , as Annhig says, and can't afford to have a bad review. Son and family have done several VRBO in Europe and Hawaii. Very satisfied with all. Hopefully will be able to do it again.

I've rented in Rome more often than I've stayed in hotels there. Nothing is perfect but I always did my research and never regretted my choices.

Have fun! I saw you restaurant thread: I always go to Antico Arco.

Oh yes, the payment arrangement you mention is normal.

Yes, we had the same experience with renting - deposit + cash on arrival (+security deposit in some cases)
The rentals we had looked like the pictures, or in one case, even better.

Same as above, but to be clear... The deposit is payable by credit card... And only the balance in cash? In which case, you see the apartment before you hand over the cash.

Given there is very little chance this is not legit, the hotel reservation does not seem completely fair to the hotel. I would only use a big chain hotel for the backup plan.

In Rome, we had to give a check (in American dollars was fine with them) for the deposit which would be returned if everything was OK in the end. Other people might do that differently.

VRBO recommends you at least talk to the owner or manager by phone. They (and other rental agencies I am sure) have had fraudulent listings. A quick phone call to ask more about the apartment and the neighborhood can be helpful to reduce that chance. I have also asked before for references of people I could call or email. Then I googled those people to see if they were likely "real".

I know you said your deposit is due today. But even if you don't reach them today I am sure if you emailed and explained that you would like to phone and follow up on a couple of things that they wouldn't run out and rent it to someone else in the meanwhile.

Email or phone again a couple of days before your arrival to confirm. Take a copy of listing description and website photos with you.

When you get there insist to take a good look around the apartment before you hand over the rest of the $$$. If the number of beds aren't right or its filthy or something else isn't what it should have been insist to speak to the manager on the spot and don't leave the apartment or give the $$$ until you do. And that is what the copy of the listing description and photos are for, to point out something that is described or pictured that is just too different to be appropriate. Of course you might have to stay anyway (if you don't have access through your iphone or ipad to instant internet to book an alternative -- do your research ahead to know what might be available nearby) but at least you will have the infomormation to bargain for remedy or $$$.

On the whole, temper your expectations. Nothing is "perfect". And a family together and being in Italy for he holidays well how bad could it be! ;)

Right the things to worry about

1) check the photos, what has been missed out, if there is no photo of the bathroom there is a reason.
2) check google street view, if there is a vagrant asleep in the doorway of the block there will be one there when you arrive
3) check around the area with street view, again do you like the area, note that in some cities (spain, france and italy) what looks like nothing but shutters can be a glorious shopping district a few hours later, however if the gang tags are everywhere they will be there when you get there
4) ask the owners about any building works, yes we have a lift, but no it will not be working while you are here as the whole building is being renovated is a disaster
5) wifi may work but it may not be as you expect it, either tough it out or complain
6) in italy they need passport details for the police, so don't worry if they ask for them

Do your due diligence as you would with anything else you buy or look on the up front money as a bet which is likely to come good. If you surf through this site you will find reported failures of rent, not many, but the trick is complain early if you need to.

Good recommendations by bill, especially about missing photos.

Also, take a look at the apartment reviews on TripAdvisor. Your specific rental may be reviewed, or sometimes the agency you're dealing with is reviewed.

Other than that, the arrangement you describe seems pretty common.

When you rent from an owner directly, you always take a chance. People arriving only to find the address didn't even exist or that the apartment was nothing like the photos does happen.

None of the third parties like VRBO etc. vet their listings as far as I know. So it is caveat emptor for sure.
All you can do is look for reviews of the specific property, do your due diligence as bilboburger suggests and hope for the best. You have to accept the risk of losing your deposit. If you can't accept that risk, don't book from an owner.


The idea of booking a hotel and then cancelling I find unfair to the hotel. You can always find a hotel if you have to after you arrive.

I would love to give you some comfort but unfortunately in our view.....

We have rented houses around the world, in our experience the best have been in the US. People have just delivered what they advertised.

The worst by a long shot have been in Italy.

This is a cultural issue. Italian life is swamped by paperwork, regulations and red tape to the extent that many Italians simply disregard anything in writing. Combine this with a macho approach to business which in many cases involves an attitude of "well you were stupid enough to trust anyone in the first place". Throw in some language differences and you have a recipe.

This May in Rome was a typical example. We paid a deposit to a VRBO advertiser 3 months prior to arrival. Three weeks prior to our arrival date he said his mother was ill, wanted to stay close to him and wanted the apartment. After many emails, questioning this, the landlord finally coughed up that he had received an offer of a six month rental from an American family and wanted the cash off them. We were simply thankful to get our deposit back minus the expense costs.

We then rented through SleepIn Italy and had a good experience.

Do not be put off by the fact that Italian landlords ask for cash balances on arrival. They usually only declare the deposit as income for tax purposes. The balance of cash goes in their pocket.

Put simply be careful.

Research is also difficult if you are not fluent in Italian.

It is pretty easy for we Brits to use google and establish that our prospective American landlords : exist, own the house, how much they paid for it, where they work, who they are dating etc, etc.

More difficult in Italy.

I don't rent apartments unless it's a city I've been to a few times before. I stick with hotels because I think it is more of a sure-deal, it's easier to make the reservations and payment, and you have staff on-site to help you with things that come up.

An alternative to VRBO is Airbnb. Their payment plan is a bit different in that one pays the entire cost of the rental up front to Airbnb, via Paypal or credit card, but the money will not be transferred to the owner for 24 hours after you check in. If the apartment does not exist, is filthy, or is falsely advertised, you call the 24/7 Airbnb hotline and they address the problem.

That does not guarantee you won't find yourself looking for a hotel in the middle of the night, but at least you have hope of your money going back into your pocket, rather than into the pocket of a scammer.

I've been renting apartments in Italy for many years, but I've never rented an unknown property. I have a special diet and I must have access to a kitchen when I travel. I've never been part of a scam, and I've mostly rented from owners. I hear of scams, mostly on internet blogs or the ones on Craigslist that everyone knows about, but I don't know anyone who got scammed. It seems to me, if you're active with your research, you'll quickly learn what to avoid and identify the signs of trust/mistrust.

I've never had to fully prepay an owner or wire any money, but with popular rentals, this seems to be more the norm. Some people request a deposit in the form of a check or credit card. Some people simply want a credit card number to confirm the reservation. In the times I submitted a check, no one cashed it, and it was given back. I was required to pay the full amount in cash when I got there. Because of ATM restrictions, I've had many owners accept a series of payments from me during my stay. You can never assume they will do this.

I've used Airbnb. You need to join (become a member) and read their policies carefully. They have layers of security and refund options. It's a little more complicated than most people think. Airbnb charges a fee for every rental, which can be in the $100 range, depending. If you cancel your reservation, this fee is non-refundable. Many apt owners have strict cancellation policies, which include losing 50% of the total apartment charge long before your scheduled arrival date. You have to read each ad with care.

I hear that some Airbnb members have shown up in a city and hated what they found (it doesn't happen very often). There is a number to call for help if this happens, but I don't think Airbnb has offices in every city you visit. I have no idea how they come to your rescue if you find the apartment you paid for is not up to snuff.

Am I the only one who has prepaid before arrival? We've rented probably 50 or 60 apartments or houses and at least half - if not more - have been primarily prepaid (by primarily I mean a significant deposit and payment before arrival - maybe a small final payment upon arrival plus security deposit)

The above experiences runs the gamut of direct with homeowners, VRBO, Flipkey and all its brothers and sisters, etc.

Anyway - we haven't had a bad experience....all good and most great. I do a lot of research on a rental in advance so I have confidence about the transaction.

I will say - however - that in the last few years it has changed to be more final payment upon arrival. I postulate that's a newer thing due to so many people doing rentals now.

no, you aren't, prepaying before arrival for vacation rental apartments is pretty normal. In fact, the last one I rented didn't require that, I paid upon arrival (in Barcelona), and I was rather surprised. Of course there was a deposit, but it wasn't that much.

For someone who is so nervous about renting vacation apts, I'm surprised you chose VRBO which is basically nothing but a want ad online, people can put anything up. YOu could have had a little more confidence if you were at least renting from an agency that's been in business a while (and you are more likely to find some reviews or mention of an agency online than one apt from a private owner). VRBO doesn't do anything but provide a website, they have no way of knowing if it is legitimate.

<i><font color=#555555>"VRBO which is basically nothing but a want ad online, people can put anything up"</font></i>

I suppose they can. But it's hard to believe that any scammer is going to pay the VRBO minimum of $349 to execute a scam. And then there's the data/paper trail.

VRBO also offers insurance. With "peace of mind" plans that start at $49, renters have the option to get 100% coverage for payments up to $10,000. The site has been around a very long time. It's received a ton of press through the years, and there are an abundance of "legit" vacation owners offering "legit" properties there.

Craigslist is a want-ad site where scammers have a free-for-all. Let's be careful not to confuse the two.

I have used VRBO several times with success. The last apartments we rented in Paris and Lisbon were through VRBO and we were satisfied with both. Both of those apartments required a deposit of approximately 50% using PayPal and the balance in euros upon arrival. They also both required a cash deposit. They allowed us to use dollars so we did and just got back the Paris deposit and handed it over to the Lisbon apartment owner and finally got that back before our return home.

I have used agencies as well. They also required a deposit and security deposit,though not all required a cash security deposit if we used a credit card for the apartment deposit they would accept that for the security deposit. The balance has always been payable upon arrival. In Rome we used sleepinitaly.com twice. In Paris we have used rentparis.com, VacationinParis.com, VRBO.com, and a private owner website, all with success. In Madrid we used Spain-select.com and in Barcelona we used habitatapartments.com, both good.

I would stay away from Craigslist as they definitely could easily scam you. VRBO is a reliable website and I would not hesitate to recommend it or use it. Always be careful and check out everything you can about the apartment and the neighborhood and read the reviews and follow up on them if you feel it necessary. I have also had call to and from owners and agencies, but mostly emails.

FWIW, VRBO's estimated monthly traffic is 1.3 million visitors (as of 2011). No matter how anyone feels about the glorified hosting site, that's a very large audience.

A large percentage of rental property owners on VRBO purchase the $600+ annual ad package. This would suggest, any ad with lots of photos is paying the higher premium. And if the owner is paying a higher premium, chances are he/she cares about customer satisfaction.

Let's be clear. No third party site is without issues. You aren't dealing with a major hotel chain, you are usually dealing with individual owners, thousands of them. The law of averages should tell you that it is inevitable that some of them will not be as advertised. So there is always some risk.

That many are legitimate does not preclude some being bad. What else is there to say? No matter how many people say, 'I have never had a problem, there are also people who will say, 'I had a problem' Even if you assume 95% have no problem that still doesn't assure you that you won't end up in the 5% that do have a problem.

Nor is the issue one way. Renters can trash a place (and do) as easily as an owner can misrepresent a place. Airbnb has had some well publicized problems in that regard.
https://www.google.ca/#q=airbnb+scams

Another factor that many don't realize is that this type of private rental is not always legal. Hawaii for example has a big problem with it.
https://www.google.ca/#q=hawaii+ille...cation+rentals

So just because a place advertises a rental doesn't mean it is legal and that you won't get caught in the crossfire. In Hawaii, again as an example, people have found themselves the recipient of angry and agressive responses by neighbours who don't want vacation rentals in the neighbourhood, condo building, etc. Nothing like feeling unwanted to improve a vacation.

The key to me is who is responsible. Invariably, the third party site does NOT take any responsibility. That means that YOU assume all risk. Either you recognize and accept that or you don't and then come on here asking for help to 'alleviate unease'. No one here is going to assume the risk for you.

NYC

Absolute rubbish. VRBO fight hard to limit the renter ability to gain recourse.

We rented an expensive house on Mallorca. The owner had actually taken pictures of his huge mansion next door and posted those images. It was comical.

VRBO simply forced him to change the images after we complained and offered us no recourse. They continued him to be allowed to use their site.

Am I the only one who has prepaid before arrival? We've rented probably 50 or 60 apartments or houses and at least half - if not more - have been primarily prepaid (by primarily I mean a significant deposit and payment before arrival - maybe a small final payment upon arrival plus security deposit)>>

elizabeth - paying in full in advance is the "norm" in the UK, IME. We ask our renters to pay a 25 % deposit when they book, and the balance in full 6 weeks before the rent is due to start. our renters' "guarantee" is that we live only 50 yards away from the rental property, so if anything goes wrong [as it did last week when the newly replaced shower developed a fault] they can come and tell us ALL about it.

we are listed on the visit Cornwall website and we are vetted every year by them; we are also listed on a german website called "Traumferienwohnungen" [dream holiday homes] and they have never vetted us. so it can be possible to find some properties that are officially vetted, depending on the way that things are organised in a particular country.

I doubt that there is an official vetting system for apartments in Rome etc.

Annhig, properties listed on VRBO, etc. are NOT vetted by those third party listing sites. It has nothing to do with a property that is vetted and listed by a body like a local or national tourist board. It is about what responsibility the third party has to the consumer.

Re payment, I would not give you more than a 10% deposit. I need to be able to walk away if the property turns out to not be as advertised. Paying in full 6 weeks ahead insures you that you will not have to worry about a 'no show'. It would insure me of nothing. If I am going to risk your property being a dump, then I expect you to risk my being a no show. It's a two way street, not a one way. Your 'guarantee', guarantees nothing.

Most people renting from these third party sites don't do any due diligence beyond reading the listing. They assume that because it is listed on a 'reputable' site that everything is fine.

Note how Dickie_Gr says VRBO offered them no recourse. That thinking that VRBO or any other third party has some responsibility to do so is exactly what the problem is.

Clearly, Dickie_Gr continues to think VRBO has any responsibility in the matter. That they provide some kind of 'protection' if things go wrong. Clearly, he does not see VRBO as simply providing a listing site and that beyond that the contract is between him and the property owner with any recourse ONLY coming from that property owner.

For those who think paying a fee to VRBO, etc. implies some kind of concern on the part of the person renting out a property, think again.

Paying $600 out than then renting a place even 10 times for $1000 makes the $600 insignifigant relative to the profit to be made. An audience of 1.3 site visits per month makes it clear that another sucker will be along in a few minutes. The fee to list is no deterrent to anything.

The bottom line always remains the same. Third party sites take no responsibility for the listing being accurate or a property even existing. ALL of the risk is assumed by the person who is paying to rent.

Christina got it absolutely right. "For someone who is so nervous about renting vacation apts, I'm surprised you chose VRBO which is basically nothing but a want ad online, people can put anything up."

If someone advertises something for sale in a newspaper, you don't expect the newspaper to be responsible for what you buy. What's more, you probably expect the ad to exaggerate the item, possibly be a scam, etc. In other words you will be cautious. For some reason this sensible approach is ignored when it comes to things like renting a property online.

Just imagine someone advertising in the newspaper, 'car for sale, $xxx, if interested send a cheque for 25% before making an appointment to view and a cheque for the balance, 6 weeks before arriving to view.' What's the difference?

IMO (pretty vast) experience what dulcimer says is just about impossible. Holiday rental almost always require a MUCH higher deposit on booking. 10%? Not very likely. And probably 50% to 60% require full payment 4 to 6 weeks in advance and most ofvthecrest full payment on arrival. Most that do allow pmt on arrival require the highest deposits.

Those comments are simply not 'real world'.

(Now he's going to attack me again for disagreeing w/ him)

Anyone who's only willing to pay 10% upfront for a rental is living on another planet. That's simply not how it works, and I'm coming at it from the owner's/renter's perspective, and I know myriad other owner/renters in France and a few in Italy. The norm is, you pay 40-50% upon booking, then the entire balance 3-4 weeks before you show up. Owners need guarantees people are actually going to arrive at the property, not keep shopping around for a better deal or just change their plans. It's a contract, not a wing and a prayer. And there should always be clauses in the contract to protect both parties - if there aren't, it would be stupid for either party to take on the rental. Moreover, every owner I've ever known was more than willing to take into consideration any sort of emergency situation. NOT necessarily return the entire amount (as the owner may lose income in that case), but a fair return of rental money already paid.

Oops - didn't notice the autocorrect re your screen name. . . .

Dulci (whatever)

You seem to use the word clearly a lot.

You don't see things clearly.

I had issues with a Landlord using VRBO, I am well aware of the contractual arrangements I entered.
I, like most other sane people, would have expected VRBO to throw the landlord off their site for clearly misrepresenting. That was my gripe not the tangent you are driving along.

St Cirq is absolutely correct, there has to be trust on both sides. The lowest deposit I have ever paid is 25%. Most US rentals see, to want the balance 30 before, Italians settle for the cash balance on arrival due to the reasons I stated previously.

Annhig, properties listed on VRBO, etc. are NOT vetted by those third party listing sites. >>

I never said that i they were; I was pointing out that there are ways of renting where places are vetted. I agree with Dickie that whoever you rent through, the agents/vetting organisation should have a method of redress if the accommodation is substantially not as advertised.

i can't imagine anyone renting on the basis of a 10% deposit; it would simply not be economic to do so.

We're settled on a place managed by fromrometohome. Will let you know how it all works out.

good luck, cmeyer, we'l look forward to hearing about it.

Re VRBO: Some rentals on VRBO appear on other sites that do provide recourse if the rental is less than what's represented. Sometimes you can find those by googling the address of the rental.

Point being, while VRBO may not provide recourse, the fact that the property appears on sites that do provide recourse is a good sign for that property.

I think once you get older, you have more money and less time.

We can't be bothered with the lottery of choices.

Just booked another two weeks at the usual house in Charleston, just too easy.

Let me clarify. I wrote, 'I would not give you more than a 10% deposit. That's a statement of fact. I simply wouldn't do it.

I was not trying to suggest that asking for 10% was common practice by individual property renters. They can ask for anything they want and 25-50% may well be the norm. It's irrelevant to me, I don't rent from them. I don't rent using a third party listing website like VRBO. I rent from companies like Hilton, Marriott, etc. unless I KNOW a property owned by an individual.

Most people pre-book, I rarely do. If I want to rent an apartment/cottage/house somewhere I go there and find one. I'm comfortable doing that. I never get a surprise in terms of 'not as advertised' or anything else. Nor have I ever had a problem finding a place to rent.

The difference is I am willing to travel that way, others aren't. If you don't feel the need to pre-book, this whole issue doesn't exist.

I know some of you will attempt to argue that you have to pre-book, sorry, I don't buy that excuse in 99% of cases. Yes, if you want an apartment in a specific place during an event like the Running of the Bulls in Pamploma, just showing up and looking for a place to rent would be a bad idea but 99% of the time that is not what people are doing.

In this case, cmeyer is going to Rome during Christmas. Does anyone seriously beleive there won't be vacancies at that time of year? So why pre-book? People pre-book simply because they think they have to pre-book. I could arrive in Rome at noon and be in an apartment by 6pm. Of that I am sure.

Now StCirq, tell me that if you owned an apartment in Rome, it's vacant and I phone you to ask to see it at 3pm today that 1. You wouldn't show it to me. 2. That you would ask for payment before I showed up. 3. That you would need some kind of guarantee that I am going to show up at 3pm.

In fact, if I chose to rent it, you would be quite happy to rent to me without having had a deposit or full payment 6 weeks before I arrived.

What's more, once I decide to rent we will discuss price and payment. I will negotiate price. You can negotiate or you can refuse. Either I will give in and agree to your price or I will walk. You, the landlord, are not in charge. I am, I have the money and you want it. That means I have the power, not you.

Once we agree on a price I will walk with you to the nearest ATM and withdraw whatever the daily limit is in local currency. My bank allows me to withdraw $2000 but the equivalent in local currency may not be allowed by the local bank ATM. They have their own daily limits. I know, I've done this many times. Whatever amount I can withdraw, I will withdraw. I will hand you that cash as a first payment.

As I just said, I have done this numerous times. I've never had a refusal by the property owner to accept that. We then agree further payment based on that daily limit. Usually, it's an agreement that I will pay the balance in X days based on how many days it will take to withdraw the total amount.

Now tell me you would not rent to me StCirq. Your property is empty, we've agreed a price, you've got some cash in hand and will have to risk the balance of payment for a few days. Deal or no deal?

I am not living on another planet, I'm living in reality. But I don't do things the way you prefer, I do them the way I prefer.

Dickie_GR, what you expect from VRBO assumes that you are their customer. You are not their customer. The person paying them to list their property is their customer. See the difference?

They offer recourse to their customers. In your case they did. They offered their customer the choice of changing their photos.

Your only recourse has to come from the property owner. You are their customer, not VRBO's customer. It's obvious in VRBO's response to your complaint, just who they see their customer as being. I see this very clearly. Do you?

Annhig, I agree with you that there are far better ways to find a property if you feel you must pre-book. National organizations being one of them. If your property is vetted by 'Visit England', the official English tourist board, then someone can expect the kind of recourse Dickie_GR was looking for from VRBO. But when you write, " I agree with Dickie that whoever you rent through, the agents/vetting organisation should have a method of redress if the accommodation is substantially not as advertised.", there are a couple of issues. First, you don't 'rent through' them, you rent directly from the owner. Second, third party listing sites like VRBO don't have a method of redress. So whether you agree that they 'should have' is rather pointless.

Cmeyer has chosen to book with 'fromhometorome' (not the other way around). Google them. Google for reveiws. There are none. Go on their website and read the 'about us'. The business started in early 2013. So they are a new business for which no reviews can be found.

Yet Cmeyer came on her asking for help to 'alleviate unease'. Anyone want to tell them it was a wise choice to go with a new company for which no reviews yet exist? Help alleviate their unease.

My guess, it was the cheapest price. Unease be dammed, full speed ahead, price trumps all.