Places I can do without --
 

Perhaps I sound like an iconoclast, but there are some places on this planet that I can do without visiting. Do you have some you would like to list? Among mine are: Russia (other than St. Petersburg's Hermitage -- can't we move it to Paris?); Saudi Arabia; Libya; Colombia; South Africa; Nigeria; Zaire (or whatever its name is today); the Outback of Australia (I have a hunch that it is highly over-rated); Calcutta; Myanmar (sounds nice but I hear it's a sweaty swamp); anywhere they fly the Confederate flag proudly. All this will sound very politically incorrect, but that's what free speech is all about.

Places i can do without: <BR>After traveling throughout Turkey (enjoyed, Italy (enjoyed), London (enjoyed)...Athens was terrible. Its a dirty city without personality. Thank goodness we didn't plan our trip around Athens. If your going, you must see the famous ruins, but a half day is enough...get out fast. The Greek Islands are beautifully rugged, but most towns are full of tourist swap shops looking for a buck. Avoid the port towns and see the countryside. I found the Turks to be much more friendly than most of the people in Greece.

Can you still be an iconoclast if you're not alone, Al? Cuz you can count me in on just about every place on your list, and a few more...starting with China. I realized several years ago, somewhat to my chagrin, that I am NOT a very adventurous traveler. Feels like some kind of lack, but there it is....

Yes, Al, you are right. As much as some may clain that all is "motherhood and aple pie", there are some of us who shamelessly admit about places where there is just NO interest to visit. Mine are India, Japan, Korea & VietNam. I am sure there are others; let's just say that's the top of the list.

This is tough for me to answer, since there is so much of the world that I want to see. I guess some of the places that are far down on my list, or maybe not on my list at all, are: Jamaica, Korea (since I have already been to China, Japan, Hong Kong, Taiwan - yes, I realize they aren't really the same), Singapore, Branson Missouri (please don't hold this against me if you live there), Dallas, Andorra (unless I get to the rest of Europe and want to say I have been everywhere), and a Caribbean cruise. Nevertheless, if someone offered me a free trip to any of these, I would take it in a second. <BR> <BR>While we are at it, my top places to visit that I haven't yet visited include: Italy, UK, India, Kenya, Spain, Russia, Greece, Australia, Netherlands, national parks of Utah, Arizona, and California, and Peru. Also, a return photography trip to China. <BR> <BR>As much as I agree with you about the Confederate flag Al, I am going to Charleston this October. I do wish they would take that flag down though.

It's a fair question - after all we don't all like the same colours equally. But maybe for us outsiders you can explain the confederate flag thing. <BR> <BR>I find that places I do or don't want to visit change with the political climate or with my views as I age. In a constantly changing world I can just wait for political problems to settle before going to that spot. I used to say that I never wanted to set foot in Mexico or India but now am beginning to see myself visiting India some day. On the other hand, places that used to be of interest aren't as much now, such as: Rio and Germany for Oktoberfest (I don't like crowds or drinking - what was I thinking?). My opinion of Greece is pretty much the same as Dana's except that, after a couple of days, I thought Athens had quite a bit of character. I have no big hankering to return to Santorini, or to Trinidad or Jamaica. <BR> <BR>Las Vegas and Waikiki, China, Australia aren't on, or aren't high on my list of travel destinations but the last two could change. I got stuck going to Mexico as part of a cruise and found it not so bad. <BR> <BR>So there you go. Some places you think will be great aren't. And others that you dread turn out OK. <BR>

5:30am at the airport in Skopje, Macedonia. Walk-to-wall people inside and out. Not to be repeated. <BR> <BR>On the theme - I have no interest in Africa. I'd like to go *some* place in Asia to get the sense of it, but no strong preferences where.

Here's the explanation on the Confederate flag for you April. There has been quite a bit of controversy in the southern U.S. over what place the confederate flag has in today's South. Some see it as a symbol of regional pride and history. Others see it as a symbol of racism. On a lower level, the issue relates to individual rights such as whether students should be able to wear it to school or whether it should be waved by fans at University of Mississippi football games. I think most schools have made it a no-no for t-shirts, etc. On a higher level, the states of Georgia and Mississippi still have the Confederate flag incorporated into their state flags. According to everything I have read, Georgia changed its flag to this design during the desegregation movement in protest. The state of South Carolina (hence my reference to Charleston) flies the Confederate flag with the state flag over the state capitol (dating back to the centennial observance for the beginning of the Civil War-1961). Currently, several groups are calling for people to boycott these states by not travelling there. Two big organizations have already cancelled conferences originally planned for South Carolina.

I know this isn't the topic of the thread...but isn't this whole Confed flag thing not unlike, on the other end of the spectrum; banning the children's story book Little Black Sambo? Both ARE a part of our history....I just read, this evening, a great quote from a Southern, Black woman (active in the Civil rights movement and founder of the singing group, Sweet Honey in the Rock), that you must be "fluent in history and not hide from it". I guess I could see that still wanting to fly the Confed flag is kind of a "red flag" BUT if whole states want o continue to identify themselves as "backwoods redneck racists...," who are we to argue...? <BR> <BR>Or ignore their beaches and other lovely, landscape -- not human -- draws??? <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>

Here are some more "do-withouts": Brighton, Blackpool, Atlantic City, Torremolinos, Marseilles, Cannes, Lima, Acapulco, Las Vegas, Barstow, Gallup, damp campgrounds in the Smokies, fishing shacks in Wisconsin, East St. Louis. I've seen 'em all -- never again.

Don't you think that all travel is worthwhile even if you don't like somewhere? Travel lifts us out of the mundane and makes us think. <BR>Really we tend to stereotype countries,just like we do people.I think it's delightful to have pre-conceived ideas and then have them totally disproved. <BR>Sometimes though we are right.I hate Los Angeles and I hate Miami,but both places were still experiences that I wouldn't have wanted to miss. <BR>New orleans and Quebec city blew me away.They were so different than what I thought they would be. <BR>I would go anywhere and see anything,except for countries that are dangerous.I have always wanted to go to Kashmir.It looks like I won't get to do that in my life time.

<BR>There are very few places I wouldn't visit - of course, some destinations are higher on the "to see or revisit" list than others. But, I noticed that Las Vegas was a destination some don't care about - and I understand that - but, I go to Las Vegas once or twice each year, and win enough to finance my next few trips to Europe!

Interesting thoughts all...I have to agree with the recent posts that travelling to any new destination, for me, has some value in rounding out my perspective, and helps clarify why I value certain travel experiences....which in turn makes it easier to anticipate whether new destinations are 'good bets' or not. <BR>On another note, some destinations require a unique perspective and special criteria by which they should be measured...Las Vegas right up at the top of that list. Character? Culture? Potential to appeal to one's 'soul'? Forget it. Not unlike Disney World in my book. An artificial environment and not pretending otherwise. <BR>My top "do withouts": <BR>Zurich <BR>Montreal <BR>Mexico City <BR>Nice/Cannes <BR>Savannah <BR>New Orleans <BR>LA

Al, <BR> <BR>I'm sorry you feel the way you do about South Africa. I was there in May and June and it is one of the most beautiful places in the world. Beaches in Cape Town and Durban are second to none. The people in Johannesburg are among the friendliest on Earth and, yup, I made it back from there without a scratch or a single harrowing incident. <BR> <BR>Two places top my list: Las Vegas and South Carolina. <BR> <BR>Vegas is the tackiest place on Earth. <BR> <BR>I've been to Myrtle Beach, Charleston and Columbia which are lovely places, physically, but leave a lot to be desired for African-Americans. Despite the claims of Southern hospitality, I found the people to be rather rude and suspicious. And regarding the flag issue: You cannot support that flag without inherently condoning an economic, social and political system that was based, for hundreds of years, on free slave labor. The confederate flag is a symbol of protest, hatred and subjugation of African-Americans. Would it be acceptable to fly the flag of the Nazi party simply because it was also a "part of history" Somehow I don't think so.

Sabrina: you put my feelings about the Confederate flag into words far better than I ever could. Having lived for almost a decade in the South, long before the Civil Rights Movement, I tasted the bitter lash of ostracism that goes with a Midwestern accent among the rednecks, yahoos, and Good Old Boys.

South Africa is a land of contrast. We have deserts and beautiful beaches. We had a president who showed more character than most presidents. Everyday I look at the mountains and am amazed at the beauty and think how lucky I am. I love the mediterranean climate of Cape Town. I also agree with others who say every country is worth experiencing. I quite look forward to India. A bit of every country you visit stays with you and enriches your life. <BR> <BR>Perfection is the last refuge for the mediocre.

<BR>my answer I guess is a different interpretation of the question = Antarctica. I'd LOVE to visit there...but I don't think more humans (and our accompanying polution, trash, noise etc.) belong there - eventually there would be no more Antarctica as we know and respect it. <BR>But to keep with the theme of the question - I'd say (having been there, done that) Mazatlan, New Orleans, Newark. I do wish I could see Russia, China, Africa though sometime in my lifetime.

To Al - I don't really know how you can criticise those countries, when you obviously know so little about them. <BR>Saudi Arabia - some of the most beautiful landscape, beaches and weather in the world. Very friendly people, lots of culture and loads of history. <BR>Libya - very very beautiful and some of the most friendly people in the world (if you excuse the propoganda put out by their politicians). <BR>South Africa - beautiful weather, friendly people, lively culture, history stretching back to the commencement of humanity, lovely beaches, diverse flora and fauna not to mention the excellent exchange rate. <BR>Zaire - I only know about the part of it called Uganda. Wonderful wonderful scenery, one of the last surviving habitats of the mountain gorillas and also the chips, very friendly and helpful people, and an excellent culture. <BR>I am afraid from your comments I would have to call you a closed minded, opinioniated snob. Also the fact that it has nothing whatsoever to do with Western Europe. <BR>Regards <BR>Jemaine

Wow, jemaine, I'm with you. To have opinions, like and dislikes, desires, preferences...definitely a sign of snobbism. Much better to all be the same. Tell us, Jemaine, should we all LIKE the Confederate Flag or should we all despise it?

Wow, jemaine, I'm with you. To have opinions, like and dislikes, desires, preferences...definitely a sign of snobbism. Much better to all be the same. Tell us, Jemaine, should we all LIKE the Confederate Flag or should we all despise it?

I imagine my life would be much easier if I believed without reservation that "Travel lifts us out of the mundane and makes us think." If you pick the wrong place (for you), travel can throw you right into the mundane. I don't think travel makes us think; I don't think anything can make you think if you're not that way inclined. And if you are that way inclined, you don't need to travel to think, although you make like to travel because you like what it gives you to think about. <BR> <BR>At least, that's what I think. <BR> <BR>The only place I really liked in Germany was Heidelberg. As for the rest of it, you must all stop liking it immediately or I'll know you have no judgment at all.

To Elvira, I really do not think you can compare a flag with a country! I have no opinion about the flag, and if I did, I am sure there is probably a website dedicated to it. I came and had a look at this site because I thought it would be an informative EUROPEAN TRAVEL related site. Not a "free for all, put down other peoples countries (and homes)" site.

Just because someone has no desire to visit a place does not mean he or she is putting it down. My g-d, I'm from New Jersey, and if I got upset every time someone truly put it down, I'd be more neurotic than Jemaine.

Ilisa, you're from Jersey? Which exit?

I'd gladly go to any country I've not been before, especially to those, listed by Al, IF i could be 100% sure that I won't get any exotic sickness or parasites or get troubles because of my race, citizenship, religion or the wallet too thick for the locals. As I think it's the main reason, right Al? <BR>By the way, what's the main reason for you to avoid my homeland Russia (just interesting)? <BR>

I have to agree with April, that travel interests change over the years. Changes can occur because of the age, health, and experience of the travelers, the politics and history of a country, and a multitude of different reasons. For example, my husband and I spent our early married years vacationing in Mexico, Jamaica, Bahamas and Caribbean islands, and began to bring our kids along when they were born. We probably visited Mexico 10 times or more, and loved it for its beaches and ambiance, but never really considered it a cultural or learning experience. Then we began European travel as a couple and with the children. We were just beginning to plan our March 2000 trip to Egypt to see primarily archeological sites, when our sons asked why can't we see the pyramids in Mexico instead. At first we refused to even consider it (been there, done that), then began to think about it. The Mexico that our kids wanted to see was quite different from our early trips to big hotels on the beach. Our trip is now planned for visiting five major Mayan and Toltec sites, several which are not seen on the bus tours. And Nick did some digging on the net, and found some other excellent ecological ventures, cenote diving, jungle stuff, and even visiting the school, and bringing in a load of supplies for the kids. <BR> <BR>So when I say "I can do without Podunk City", I mean "for now, I can do without Podunk City". But who knows, maybe Podunk City with the Paris of the new millenium!

Jermaine: <BR>You called Al a close-minded, opinionated snob because he dared to express some likes/dislikes. You stated your likes, but no one is allowed to state their dislikes? Wow, thank heavens the thought police are on the job. And it's good you're keeping us all in line here, reminding us not to diverge from the European theme. Sure hope I get to visit your neck of the woods someday.

Martha, EXIT 9 AND DARN PROUD OF IT!!

Martha, I stand by my statement.The mundane to me is, housework,shopping,cooking and going to work.If I am anywhere at all where I don't have to do those things then it isn't mundane.Travel is what you make it!!!! <BR>One would have to be an imbecile not to think, when you travel somewhere different.Travellers usually have much broader minds and interests than people who never go anywhere. <BR> <BR> <BR>

Al, you can be reliably depended upon to pose a fascinating question that, by the responses generated, cause me to re-examine the reasons for my own likes and dislikes. Assuming you have to have been someplace at least once in order to be able to do without it in the future, my list looks like this: <BR> <BR>Disney World. The smiles are as synthetic as Cinderella's castle. <BR>Las Vegas. Just as ersatz as Disney World, except almost no one is smiling. (Sorry, Erika!) <BR>Key West. My lingering memory is olfactory: Duval Street at 8 a.m.; the smell of stale beer mixed with vomit and urine. <BR>The French Quarter, New Orleans. It could be one of the nicest places in America, but over the years, it has evolved into a place where people go to get drunk. <BR>Caracas, Venezuela. Maybe it was because I was caught up in anti-American riots, but I was not impressed. <BR>Cairo, Egypt. Put 15 million people, too many of whom are poor, into a city. Add cars that ooze hydrocarbons. <BR>La Defense, Paris. The worst excesses of Euro-modern architecture, allowed to run rampant. <BR> <BR>Maybe it's a case of "familiarity breeds contempt," but most of the places I can do without tend to be in the United States, and several are places to which I've gone multiple times, increasingly unwillingly. Had I been to New Orleans or Las Vegas only once, my opinion wouldn't be nearly so negative. On the other hand, I had only to visit Disney World once to ensure I never get near the place again. <BR>

Will never go back: <BR>Milan - anyplace that has too many fur coats and not enough restaurants gets ixnayed from my to-do list. <BR>Nogales, Mexico - squalor mixed with Americans bargaining for a $2 doll is not my idea of a holiday. <BR>Germany & Austria - I got the creepiest feeling when I was there, like a black cat crossing my grave. Instinct says don't go back. <BR> <BR>Don't want to go, wish I could make myself want to: <BR>Africa that's not the desert: I hate jungle, and staying in an expensive hotel amongst dire poverty feels weird. <BR>Tokyo - New York but I can't read the signs. <BR>Shanghai/Singapore/Hong Kong - see above <BR>Vietnam - see "I hate jungle" <BR>Caribbean cruise - oh yawn <BR>Siegfried and Roy <BR> <BR> <BR>

Ilisa: <BR>Bruce Springsteen is from Jersey, so it's not all that bad!!!!! BRUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCE!!!!!!!

A quote I love from some dj sort: <BR>We ought to run Bruce for President; heck, he got people to actually LIKE New Jersey. And my mother was born in Atlantic City (pronounced "lannick city"), so I know all the Jersey jokes. <BR>Can't beat their tamatahs or coorn.

Have to agree that Athens tops my list of places visited that I hope never to return to -- polluted, unattractive, and unfriendly. I don't ever plan to go back to Milan either. In the US in the same category, the Wisconsin Dells made me retch (for some reason a family reunion was held there -- and no, we're not from Wisconsin. For the record, the family reunion was also held in Branson, MO one year, for which I sent my "regrets" and am so glad I did. Some places you just KNOW aren't for you). <BR> <BR>Place I've never visited that I have no desire to go to: Korea. Most of the rest of the world appeals to me! <BR> <BR>On the confederate flag issue: My boyfriend and I were driving down the road 2 weekends ago on the way from Virginia to New Jersey, and a car about 40 feet in front of us had a confederate flag bumper sticker on the rear bumper. We talked about how racist that was, until we approached the car to pass on the left and found to our surprise that a young black woman was driving. We were dumbfounded. Maybe claiming the symbol takes the sting out of it somehow? I still can't quite figure it out. At any rate, as a native Michigander who moved to North Carolina for several years, I never did adjust to seeing confederate symbols, but I did come to realize that it is genuinely viewed by many who live there as a historical symbol, and I've even met African-Americans in the south who collect confederate memorabilia. I certainly wouldn't have missed visiting Charleston for anything in the world, for the same reasons I wouldn't have missed New Orleans. Great architecture, great food, great history.

<BR>My dear friend Neal - you always make me smile! I didn't say I liked Las Vegas - just that it proves to be financially lucrative for me! It's better than a part-time job!

The tower of london tour in London england. That was the most boring hour i've ever had. I never even finished the last 15min...i walked out. All u do is WALK up teh towers, and watch little videos along the way on how it was built. Nice for little kids, not if you're 13+ (my 13yr old sister even fell asleep!)

Lisa. It's hard to know, but I have a feeling that the bumper sticker you saw was there when they bought the car, or it just happened to be on a sticker representing something different (such as a place they had been). I have lived in the South for all but eight years of my life, and I can tell you that it would be rare indeed for an African American to place a Confed. flag on something for reasons of regional pride. Yeah, you really don't have to believe in something to collect it. I consider myself fairly left of center, but I have a small collection of Nazi items (there is a huge market for these), out of historical interest. I am pretty careful about the way they are displayed though, since I would hate to offend visitors to my home or have them get the wrong idea. <BR> <BR>The thing is, most Southerners see nothing racist about that flag, and really many just use it as decoration. Then there are many who are interested in Civil War history or display it out of regional pride. There are an unfortunate few who display it for intentional racist reasons. The real controversy is with the states that fly it over capitol buildings where legislatures meet that are supposed to represent all the residents of the state (and all three states have large minority populations). As far as I know there is not any comparable feeling over having Confederate monuments at public buildings (a huge number of Southern cities and towns have these). Just as with any issue though, there are many in the offended group that are either apathetic about it or feel that it is not such a big deal.

Someone above asked why I don't want to visit Russia. An unexamined prejudice on my part, I suppose. But, to be frank, I know that Russia (or rather the former Soviet Union) cost me about eight years of my life, most of it at sea, hoping that Ivan would not put a torpedo into our ship or a missile into downtown Cleveland. Untold billions of dollars and rubles disappeared down enormous rat holes. I have a queasy feeling that there was enough blame to go around on both sides. Fortunately, life goes on. <BR>But I see no reason for me to spend my dollars visiting Russia.

any place this person is!! <BR> <BR>Al ([email protected])

I've been surprised at how this thread has gone. I would like to take a different tac. <BR> <BR>There have been places that were not high on my list to visit but I finally decided to go and for the most part, I have been pleasantly surprised. For example, I had been to Europe many times before I "brought" myself to finally go to Italy. Somehow I envisioned it so differently from how it was, that it stymied my going there. Well..guess what...I fell in love with Italy...so much so that I purposedly went back there the very next year and took my parents! <BR> <BR>Although I agree with some of the comments above and wouldn't necessarily make a point to go to these places again, I wouldn't have missed: 1) Athens (the ruins and the museum are worth it as is eating dinner at 11pm with flaming ouzo in front of you); 2)Bangkok (the temples are awesome though the pollution is difficult to deal with) 3) Las Vegas; & 4) Pisa (glad I saw the Leaning Tower and Baptistry). <BR> <BR>Al--South Africa is DEFINITELY worth a visit. Capetown is one of the most beautiful locations I have ever been to. And the Transvaal region is gorgeous. <BR> <BR>Although in the past, India was never high on my list now that I am hooked on safaris, I really want to go and see tigers in the wild. <BR> <BR>Deb <BR>