Pinching in Italy?
 

We've been told it is customary and acceptable for men in Italy to pinch women's bottoms. Is this true and, if it is, what is the customary and acceptable response?

LOL the last time I heard about pinching in Italy I laughed so hard I fell off my pet dinosaur ;) But seriously, it's neither customary nor acceptable, so in the rare event it happens to you, feel free to govern yourself accordingly. Buon viaggio :)

The only pinching we were worried about was of our wallets.

We did get flashed in the bus though. Does that count?

Customery and Acceptable - certainly not! I have traveled all over northern Italy, and been in both social and business situations, and have never heard of, seen, or experienced this. Of course I am 'of a certain age' so maybe I wouldn't be a target, but my daughter has always been treated with respect and she is young and attractive. Similarly I have never seen my younger colleagues treated is this way. There is no 'customary response' because it doesn't customarily happen.

Who told you that valsa??

You have the wrong information, valsal, you are supposed to pinch the Italian men's bottoms!

I like SeaUrchin's idea. Actually, myself and a co-worker are going on separate vacations to Europe, 2 weeks apart. She's going with a tour group and she received info from the tour company telling her this might occur. I thought it was a "blast from the past" but thought I would check it out. I'm taking my daughter with me and wanted to be prepared.....LOL.

It did happen to a few single girls who were on our bus tour, but this was in 1979.

I have a few women friends who traveled to Italy and were a bit disappointed that they didn't get their bottoms pinched. It seems to be a wide spread rumor in the States. However, when I lived in Italy I did get a "drive by pinch". A guy drove by on his vespa and reached out and pinched me. I took it as a compliment.

It is certainly not acceptable and no longer customary (for at least the last 25 years). (Maybe it was in the 40's and 50's - don;t know - but the world has moved on.) I'm sure it happens sometimes when the situation allows (a crowded bus etc) just as on public transit in any city.

IMHO the acceptable response is either a stamp on the foot or an elbow in the ribs of the miscreant - just as it would be on any other bus or subway.

I studied in Florence for three months in 1999. During that time, I did get pinched once. But it was at a discotheque, so I don't think it was any different than rude drunk men anywhere. I slapped his hand and walked away.

That trend went out with Travelers checks--about 20 years ago.

Was patted on the bum on a train on my first trip to Italy. Does that count? Nothing since!

My bottom was not pinched at all in Rome, but I saw a lot of Italian men's bottoms I would have loved to get my hands on...

Well, it happened to me last week! Frankly, I was shocked. After all I'm 52 years old and I like to think I still look good but hey I never expected to actually get pinched.I thought it was passe. I was standing in front of the hotel on Saturday morning when it happened. How did I react? I shouted, " you stupid a--, what's wrong with you pinching an old lady?" He looked shocked and so did my sister! When I e-mailed my assistant at work that afternoon and mentioed it to her, she laughed so had she cried. I did not feel assaulted and actually it was pretty hilarious!

We just got back on Tuesday from Italy and France, and neither my DW or SIL got pinched. They are both striking women, and very pinchable.

I think they were just a bit disappointed.

:-)

Pinching ladies bottoms was a myth about Italy along with handsome latin lovers in the 50's, I wasn't around so can't tell you if it was true, I think the movies had something to do with promoting it, wasn't there one where the (famous hollywood) male star pinches the culo of the (famous hollywood) female star and she eventually falls in love with him. Now if a pretty lady were to pinch my ass, I would pinch myself to check I wasn't dreaming.

Small children's light cheek pinching happens now and again!

Having recieved a Vespa "drive-by" pinching once 30 years ago in the North of Italy and once last year on Ischia, I know that this form of Italian "chivalry" is still alive in the Boot, (some traditions die hard) and also that age may not protect you! Walk in groups of more than two. That way, at least one of you can proceed pinch-free by walking in the middle!
To me, that is one important difference between the US and Italy.
They have a few drive-by pinchings.
We have a few drive-by shootings.
I'll gladly take the former anyday,,,

A few years ago an old high school acquaintance came to stay with me at the start of her backpacking trip across Italy. She asked me whether Italian men could be expected to routinely pinch, grab, proposition, etc. (we had gone to high school together in India, so were very familiar with what the Indians call "eve teasing").

I answered that I thought it was a myth - I'd never had anything of the sort happen to me except once on a very crowded bus in Rome.

We took a walk to a nearby street market which I had visited many times before without incident. And she got LOTS of attention: "Ciao, bella!" rang out from all sides, to my total stupefaction.

That evening, coming home from dinner, we were followed by two Egyptian men intent on getting to know us better. I shouted at them: "I'm a married woman!" - which deterred them not a bit. Again, nothing of the sort had ever happened to me on my own.

I could only conclude that my friend had some sort of neon sign on top of her head that only men could see, flashing "I'm available!" She certainly wasn't as perturbed as I was by the attention, and went on to have various adventures - "These Italian guys sure can kiss!" she told me when she came back through Milan.

So, I dunno - you get what you're looking for??? (I already have an Italian man, don't need another one.)

best regards,
Deirdré Straughan

beginningwithi.com

valsal-

That's kind of scary that a tour company is dispensing information gained from watching Italian movies made in the '50s!

Deirdre-
If you were with your friend on your own neighborhood, could it be that the men in the marketplace and the neighborhood knew you as a local person (or married to a local) and as such, would not approach you this way?
Your friend was someone they hadn't seen before, so maybe they considered her fair game, as it were?

The incident that happened to me on Ischia happened as I was walking (alone) along the road to my hotel carrying some things I had just bought at a market. The Vespa guy sped up to me from behind and totally took me by surprise, so I don't think I was "looking for" anything except getting to my hotel to change for dinner! Not every female who experiencies this is wandering the streets looking for a pinch around every corner!

In your friend's case, maybe it was different?

Sounds like it could almost be a marketing ploy. After all, there actually are some folks "of the certain age" (what DOES that mean????..over 25???) who might actually be delighted at the prospect of some Italian, stud or otherwsie, trying to grab a pice of skin, unavailable or otherwise.

I beg to differ with most other posters. When my daughter studied in Florence last semester, in their orientation the students were told that it IS acceptable in Italy for men to approach and touch women they don't even know. They advised the young women to simply ignore the advances.

When I visited for two weeks with her in Italy, my daughter was spoken to and touched by several men we passed by on the sidewalks. She's fairly tall, and blonde, so maybe got more attention. But it was a nuisance, and an everyday occurrence for her.

She was good at just walking by and paying no attention to it, but believe me, as her Mom walking with her, it ticked me off. Especially when the young men would then say something very offensive, when ignored. One man even reached out and touched her mouth!

We went to Nice for a few days and were happy to find a different atmosphere there. More blondes, and my daughter didn't get harassed there.

So I'd advise women to have a thick skin when visiting Italy.
:)>-

Dukey, you caught me!!! So, I need to stop sticking my butt out when on the bus?!!! LOL

Two years ago when the TN Trio of Terror were in Rome, Saundra was pinched while we were all three strolling arm in arm with her in the middle. She loved it!

I'll probably get blasted for saying this, but...

One reason that blondes, especially large blondes, reputedly get unwanted attention in Italy is because they're assumed to be either American or Dutch or Scandinavian, the stereotype of the "sexually available" woman.

Also, American women sometimes have a bit of a Puritanical sense of sexuality, and it's pretty easy to pick up on, making them a reliable target for provocation. It's like when your kids play: when Sally wants attention from Susie, one surefire way of getting it is by nudging Susie; and nothing gives Sally more satisfaction than when Susie reacts in a huff!

Sometimes, too, the outrage women purport to have is a cover for the secret pleasure they feel about being considered "special" in a way they may not be considered at home (or in a way they may not allow themselves to enjoy at home).

'Course, there's also that factor of what a good story it makes. ("You wouldn't believe how aggressive those Eye-talyun men are; why they just wouldn't leave me alone!")

As in any other situation, women who are confident but not overly self-conscious generally are adept at handling the attention they receive -- both the wanted & the unwanted. Just my opinion!

<<she received info from the tour company telling her this might occur>>

Right when we thought there weren't any more good reasons not to take a tour.

I was really upset on my first trip to Italy ...30 or more years ago..my bottom was never pinched once, and at the time it was a fiarly nice one! However my DH's was grabbed a few times by those saucy Italian girls..or maybe they were American!

LucieV, I do understand your point. And I'm sure you're not saying that some women deserve this type of treatment, or that men are excused who act so boorishly. Women who are confident can rise above such silliness, but it does get old after several weeks of it. Not all women welcome being verbally and physically approached, when all they want to do is cross the street for heaven's sake.
:)>-

MaureenG, yes. The only point with which I might disagree with you is on the use of the word "boorish". I think certain behavior that is acceptable in one culture may appear "boorish" (or inappropriate or hostile or whatever) to those of another culture.

E.g., were I to be openly stared at in the US, I'd be paranoid. OTOH, in another part of the world, I'd be paranoid if people were to ~avoid~ eye contact with me.

I understand your frustration, but I honestly don't think that Italian men are being rude or hostile in the behavior you describe. They may be guilty of being insensitive to the mores of American women, but is that fair to expect when we are on their turf?

When my DH & I were much younger, we travelled a bit in Turkey. Naive & probably a bit spoiled, we were so appalled by their inefficiency, their "crudeness", their lack of concern for things that WE considered to be crucial. We got so frustrated with a bus company one afternoon, we made a***s of ourselves trying to make THEM understand US. We laugh about it now, but we both also realize how lucky we were that they didn't tell us to go jump off the nearest minaret.

Sometimes I feel like we almost havta be anthropologists when we travel, even in our own country (how many times do we hear people complain about "brusque" New Yorkers or "taciturn" New Englanders?)! And, of course, a sense of humor is always valuable, though godknows there are times when we take ourselves so seriously, even that doesn't help!

I visited Rome 20 - 25 years ago. The waiter who showed me my table pinched my a**e. Whilst I was most indignant I got my own back - I waited until his hands were full (in this case a tray full of wines glasses)and pinched HIS a**e. Needless to say he was not happy and I certainly did not leave him a tip!

Good points, Lucie. I majored in cultural anthropology, and I agree to a point. However, in any language, anywhere, when a man starts calling a woman foul names and using F language to her, that's not appropriate in any culture. Good manners are universal.

I do agree, Maureen. Nastiness is a whole 'nother ballgame. Universally reprehensible.

(I majored in cultural anthro, too, btw...I loved every minute of it, had some great profs, but often feel I have to apologize when asked what I majored in!)

Why apologize about cultural anthro?

Apologize may not be the right word. I guess I've always felt that it wasn't perceived as "practical" (as opposed to medicine, law, yadayadayada). But since "practical" is not something high on my list of priorities anyway, I'm only half-kidding when I say I feel the need to apologize for majoring in anthro! In any case, I don't for one second regret my studies, as they were so right for me--& I feel really fortunate to have had parents who encouraged all of us to major in whatever we wanted to...

Re. me being familiar in the marketplace, not so much - I didn't go there all that often. And I'm as blonde and curved and the same age (about 35 then) as my friend, though not working so hard to be attractive. So the whole thing stumped me.

I don't think most Italian women would put up with being touched by a man uninvited, and I wonder if advice such as that given to the student in Firenze has helped perpetuate bad behavior - all the foreign women students have been advised to ignore it, "It's part of the culture," so the young men in Firenze know they can get away with it, and may be trying it on just to see how far they can go with these dumb foreigners!

Personally, I'd slap them silly and/or prove just how well I know Italian, and possibly drag them home by the ear to explain their behavior to their mothers (you can bet they're still living at home). There is no reason to put up with behavior YOU consider invasive, anywhere in the world.

best regards,
Deirdré Straughan

beginningwithi.com

A good hard kick to the groin cures the "Roman hands" disease...

My mistake, dear Deirdre! Your first post said you had been to that market many times before, so I naturally thought you were a familiar face there.

As far as being blonde, I am not blonde, and am in my fifties, which didn't seem to matter much to the guy.

While I agree with you that female students in Firenze are being given less than perfect information, this male behavior is absolutely not limited to Firenze, not by a long shot.

OTOH, I don't know if "slapping them silly" is the best plan for a student or a tourist. (But it sounds good, as a concept!) I have been approached more than a few times, even when I wasn't dressed "attractively". My best defense is to learn the language enough to fight back verbally. Which has worked well on several occasions. I have no fear of verbal confrontation about this sort of thing, and do not hesitate to talk back, in strong language. But I would never get physical as a response unless I were being grabbed violently.

I agree that most Italian women would not put up with it, but they are not necessarily free of harasssment either. And remember, Italian men are raised and sometimes spoiled silly by Italian mothers. When you mix that with peer pressure, the results are easy to anticipate.

To balance things, I have found that 99% of the men in Italy who do this are quite harmless, and a few words, or even making fun of them is enough to send them on their way. Talking back sends the message that the woman is confident and won't tolerate the behavior, whereas "ignoring them" allows the men to keep seeing her as an object.

Just my opinion and experience.

Have a great day, wish I were there right now!

While I still contend that the pinching Italian is mainly a caricature from days gone by, uninvited groping does occur, and way too often. But let's not confuse the fact that it happens with the mistaken belief that it's acceptable. After all, Italy is a Western society and this is the 21st century! I agree with a lot of what Deirdre said, these guys would not get away with this with Italian women. But for some reason, foreign tourists feel all flattered and giggly when the transgressor is a guy named Fabio with an accent. Think about it, would you react the same way if you were groped by a stranger named Bob in Hoboken? There are plenty of polite, upstanding men in Italy (even ones named Fabio LOL) who treat women with respect and wouldn't dream of groping strangers. Don't be fooled by the disrespectful ones just because you're standing in front of the Trevi fountain - these guys deserve nothing better than a knuckle sandwich on a slice of focaccia in response to their boorish, and totally unacceptable, behavior ;)