I don't think it is unreasonable to assume an Asian could be more of a target, in fact, there was a recent thread on that. Because they are known to carry a lot of money (and, on average they are smaller and one knows they don't speak the language).

I think the guy is just concerned and hasn't been there before so doesn't know what to expect, it isn't unreasonable to wonder.

<<And why do you assume an Asian is more of a target?>>

Because, as explained in the OP, Asian tourists in Paris are known for carrying around large amounts of cash and ARE more frequently targeted.

Nonetheless, it would be really stupid to be aggressive with a pickpocket, even if you could be, and a knee-jerk reaction like those described by Running Rabbit would not be taken lightly by the French authorities. French law is very specific about what kinds and levels of self-defense you may use in specific situations, and the sequence of events and timing. Breaking an arm, unless you had the equivalent done to you would surely send you right to jail. Besides, fears of being harmed, or frankly even touched, as a tourist in Paris are unfounded and irrational.

Asians are smaller and don't speak the language?? I will tell that to the Japanese man I work with who speaks English and Japanese fluently and is a good foot taller than I am.
Or are you comparing the language skills of Asians to the well-known linguistic versatility of Americans?

Amazing to me how people on a travel forum - people who one would assume have more experience of the world - can fall into such stereotypes.

"And why do you assume an Asian is more of a target?"

Read the initial post and its' link?

I am not a lawyer so this is not legal advice.

In general, you may not use more force to oppose an assault than was involved in the assault.

If someone grabs your arm, you may not hit his face.

If someone hits your face, you may not fend him off with a knife or nunchak or club.

If someone threatens you with a knife, you may not respond with a firearm.

You may prevail in court depending on the circumstances but you aren't going to walk away from the encounter without a trip to the police station.

<i><font color=#555555>"Keep in mind a lot of pickpockets are children, some are old women, so you hardly need to beat them up"</font></i>

This is serious mis-information. There was a time when mothers and children played the cardboard-in-your-stomach game, but these days the men have skin in the game and are traveling in groups. I'm hearing these groups are not easy to identify visually. They're better practiced at blending in and moving in on the prey unnoticed.

I've had physical altercations with street thieves because I carry very expensive camera equipment. Their talents are nothing like what you see on USA's White Collar. They are physically aggressive as they try to distract you. You are often pushed, which comes as a shock, and they use that moment of shock to make the catch.

<i><font color=#555555>"I mean if someone decided to try to grab your backpack and you end up fighting him over it"</font></i>

I once took a kid's arm and pulled it around his back until he gave me my wallet back. He was completely stunned that I took such aggressive action against him. A Rome businessman once chased a thief on my behalf, and he got my wallet back from the young girl.

I've never been attacked by an adult male in Europe. If that ever happened, I pity the poor guy. I'm trained in self-defense, and I will not hesitate to act. There's always a risk when you defend yourself, but I'm willing to take the risk.

<i><font color=#555555>"it would be really stupid to be aggressive with a pickpocket"</font></i>

I guess I'm really stupid. :-)

<i><font color=#555555>"Article 122-5 of the Penal Code says "a person who, faced with an unjustified attack on themselves or a third person, simultaneously commits an act necessary to legitimate defence, shall incur no criminal liability except where the means employed are disproportionate to the seriousness of the attack." "</font></i>

Works for me.

By the way, the article that started this whole discussion came from the South China Morning Post. This is a Hong Kong newspaper that is said to be tilted toward the Chinese government and not completely independent. The article has a definite pro-Chinese anti-French slant if you read it carefully. I would suspect it's not completely reliable.

Works for me, too, as long as people take the word "disproportionate" seriously.

It looks like we have two sides to this argument -- those who have been in the trenches and those who watched the news at 10.

My defense against pickpockets is to take their photo, preferably a video. They get furious. Usually they flee. Sometimes they get verbally abusive in my face. Sometimes the abuse gets physical.

In Warsaw I went back to my car to clean it out and a pack of gypsies suddenly had me surrounded. I started taking photos. Most of them ran. One old lady came up and started slugging me. She was so weak that I laughed.

The Gare du Nord Paris pack came after me when they saw me taking their picture. I stood inside the door while they stood outside saying whatever they say to uncooperative victims. They wouldn't come inside. I have some close-up photos.

I started videoing a group at the Milan train station and they suddenly ran off like rabbits when one of them noticed me. But one fellow stopped and turned around. He pulled down his sweat pants, grabbed his junk, waved it around, and shouted "Here, take a picture of this!" I did.

Maybe I have been lucky that I haven't been hurt but I'll keep taking photos of the gypsies. Works for me.

Spaame, I was last in Paris in '05. I saw a pack of girls (with the older "mama" seated under a tree in the distance watching), as I walked through Tuileries Garden toward the Louvre. One asked me if I spoke English. I shook my head and kept walking. I wasn't too worried, but just kept walking at a brisk pace. But the fact that security guards are now being threatened made me concerned that the problem has grown much worse in more recent years.

That being said, I spoke to a colleague today who was in Paris last December and he said he didn't notice a problem anywhere they went, including the Louvre or the Metro, the one time they used it to get to Pere Lachase.

I'll continue to be alert but not worried.

"Article 122-5 of the Penal Code says "a person who, faced with an unjustified attack on themselves or a third person, simultaneously commits an act necessary to legitimate defence, shall incur no criminal liability except where the means employed are disproportionate to the seriousness of the attack." "

This isn't quite what the law says, but it is close. It also says what I said above. You cannot, without risk of arrest, use force that is out of proportion to the force used against you.

You need to be in imminent danger with no hope of assistance from the authorities and the danger must be real, not just a threat. Your defense must be immediate (no teaching the SOB's a lesson); it must be necessary (could you back off and go away?), and it

IPad took control-- and it must be proportionate. One may not use force greater than the aggressor.

There ate no " stand your ground" laws in France ( nor in many of the United States).

This is NOT going to be a problem for most people. In a week in Paris, this very month, we saw one (1) gypsy beggar, two (2) Caucasian kids with petitions, and zero (0) Romanian (not Romany, Romanian) gangs. But we weren't at the Eiffel Tower, Sacre Cour, on the Metro Line 1, or the Louvre. Or in Lisbon, or Rome.

We were in the Gare du Nord and at the Gare de l'Est, where we saw lots of Indians and Pakistanis, none of whom looked less than honest, and we rode buses and the Metro in areas with lots of Africans and North Africans, and we never felt threatened at all. We are fortunate enough to have lived and raised our children in diverse communities where difference does not equal scariness. We have well- developed street senses and don't smile at strangers (much less talk to them, what would mother say!) but saw nothing to fear.

Keep calm and carry on, to appropriate the current cliche.

First I'd like to say that I'm not "looking for a fight". If anything, I'm the type to avoid a fight. Would I break the arm of a child? Not if they only try grab by stuff...but if they suddenly produced a knife and lunge at me? I would do whatever it takes to disarm the child which might include breaking an arm. Like one other person on this forum, I've trained in martial arts since I was 12 years old (which was actually my parent's idea). I've been to other cities like London, Hong Kong and New York and I felt completely safe. From online research, it seems that there are far more incidents of tourists having problems in Paris than London, Hong Kong and New York. The recent news of the Louvre staff going on strike to protest pickpockets and news of entire tour groups being robbed has made me a bit nervous.

Re fighting back.

I got mugged on my own doorstep here in a leafy suburb of London last year. I fought back, insofar that I kept hold of my handbag, was dragged along the ground until the strap broke and he made off with it :(

I got a visit from two lovely cops, who strongly advised that if this happens again, I should just let the bag go, as he could have had a knife, as he was most certainly a junkie looking for money for a fix (there had been a few incidents the area that evening, and I got the impression they knew who the gang were).

In hindsight, they were right, however, because I struggled, my wallet and keys got tossed on the ground, which save me a lot of grief.

With me, it was not a conscious decision to resist - I wasn't thinking at all: it was the primeval 'fight or flight' mechanism kicking in, and I appear to be fighter.

As others have said, it is better not to get into the situation by being prepared and aware. In my case, I no longer walk home in the dark through my ill-lit streets, I take a taxi, and ask the driver to wait until I get in my front door.

OReilly - that is depressing news. I am thinking of moving back to the UK, after many years in a very quiet corner of the US. It sounds a lot more dangerous than when I left!

I am not saying that these things dont happen, but I live in London and have never felt unsafe - I feel safer in London than I ever did in North American cities, so I dont think you have to worry thursdaysd

Just got back from Paris - had a tablet snatched from my bag on the Metro. I was tired and not paying attention and had it (stupidly) in the outermost (zipped) pocket of a shoulder bag. It wasn't the end of the world, but was annoying.

That being said, these things can happen just about anywhere, not just Paris. I have no plans to stop coming to Paris (although I have no intention of going near the Anvers metro station again).

We were accosted several times by the petition scam in prominent tourist-y locations (my wife had to physically push one of them away in Montmartre) and once by the bracelet scam (a couple of stern no's stopped that), but no one tried the gold ring scam on us or tried to accost us buying tickets in the Metro (however, the fact that I can use the machines myself and don't look helpless probably helps.)

JC

Spaarne, I definitely have been "in the trenches" and as a solo female or with my children.

Not everything has to be a confrontation.

MOST pickpockets operate on the stealth method of operation. They are usually NOT pulling knives. In fact to me a person who pulls a weapon is not a pickpocket but a MUGGER , and Paris has no reputation as having mugger problem. Not saying it never happens, just saying that's less of an issue then some would imagine.


As for the laws, YOUR laws, and MY laws do not apply in France, the laws of France apply and from what some expats have posted on other forums, the laws in France do not allow you to assault pickpockets. You can push them away, you can try and grab your stuff back, but if you hit, kick, punch or try martial arts on them be prepared to be arrested if caught or seen..

And do not kids yourself, there are still lots of women and children pickpockets, especially beware kids under 12 as they can't even be arrested under the age of twelve... they are simply released back to their parents( who likely scold them for getting caught and send them right back out to the street)

<i>justineparis on Jun 7, 13 at 9:14pm
Spaarne, I definitely have been "in the trenches" and as a solo female or with my children. Not everything has to be a confrontation. </i>

I have the impression that I am being accused of something I didn't do. I stated above <b>My defense against pickpockets is to take their photo, preferably a video.</b> I would never consider getting violent with a woman, much less with a woman while ten more of her tribe are standing right there. I'm not nuts.

If anybody wants any good news, the newspaper reported yesterday that pickpocketing reports at the Louvre have dropped 75% in one month since security was increased, although I would attribute the drop myself to the fact that public awareness has increased at that particular location.

Joel -- so sorry you lost your tablet. I'm thinking I may avoid Montmartre when I go in Sept. kerouac, thanks for posting the latest news.

Sorry Spaarne I have addressed the first part of your post "looks like we have two sides.... those who have been in the trenches and those who have watched it on the ten o'clock news" .. then was addressing other posters who seem to feel that they are needing to defend themselves against knife welding men at every corner..

<i>justineparis on Jun 8, 13 at 11:57am
.. then was addressing other posters who seem to feel that they are needing to defend themselves against knife welding men at every corner..</i>

OK, I haven't seen any of those knife wielding men.

Speaking of the Louvre, a good friend of mine tried to check the time in Paris and looked at his wrist. No watch! Then he remembered being bumped in the Louvre a while earlier.

The same friend was separated permanently from his passport and some other valuables on a French train. He had "hidden" them in his suitcase. One trip to the potty is all it takes to turn a dream trip into a nightmare.

"One trip to the potty is all it takes to turn a dream trip into a nightmare."
Yikes! Guess it's a good thing we're traveling as a family of 4. Only one allowed to go to the restroom at a time!

Incidentally, we leave today! Thanks again for the multitude of responses on this thread. I packed my PacSafe bag specifically for Paris and have schooled our teenagers in the tricks of the pickpocket trade. I'm sure we'll be fine, and if we meet with some misfortune, we'll survive.

Did anyone actually read the article posted? This goes beyond pickpockets....

=============

A Singaporean tourist, who did not want to be named, recalled the terror as she and her sister were robbed inside a taxi taking them from the airport to a hotel in the heart of the city on May 13.

"Two men suddenly came up, smashed the car windows and snatched our bags. We were bleeding," she said. There was further frustration when they had to spend more than three hours filing a report at a police station.

"The French police did not speak English and offered no help," she said. "They just asked us to go to the police station in the damaged taxi, even though we were hurt and bleeding."

Spaarne -- I'm definitely going to wear a money belt with passport, cc, cash inside. I would hate to loose my camera. I guess that goes with me to the everywhere.

thursdaysd:

As jamikins says, I still consider London a very safe city to live in.

I live in Blackheath, in an area where there is almost no crime. I was an anomaly, but it happens in all large cities.

I moved from a very small town in Canada to London, and very glad I did.

Its OK to come home :)

Best Ger

OK come on , are people really dumb enough to leave their passport and valuables "hidden" in a suitcase then leave the suitcase unattended. Sorry, in my world those people deserve what happens.

Your passport should be with you at all times when not in a hotel safe.. or in your MONEYBELT. Do not leave it in your suitcase, cause gee,,crimminals would never think to look in there.. duh...

Oh come on is every one really from a farm in the wilderness..

We are currently in Paris and have yet to see a roving pack of gypsy pickpockets anywhere. Haven't even seen a ring scam yet. Will keep an eye out today and report back...

<i><font color=#555555>"We are currently in Paris and have yet to see a roving pack of gypsy pickpockets anywhere."</font></i>

Some say finding a "roving pack" is like finding love, it's never visible when you're looking for it.

<i><font color=#555555>"Will keep an eye out today and report back..."</font></i>

Be sure to take notes on the number of locals who wear tennis shoes and shorts, and don't miss marking the count of all those women who are guilty of <i>banding</i>. What would this board be without its up-to-the-minute investigators?

The things that people do while on vacation.

Well, sorry to say we DID see this on a trip, as I described in a previous post. Once you see it you DO see it again.

I do lots of things on vacation...including enjoying a bottle of vin with my lovely hubby and reading for a few hours in a cafe with wifi while it rains in Paris...bliss. Hope your Sunday in NYC was as lovely as mine.

PS still haven't seen any roving pickpocket gangs...not to say they don't exist, just that they aren't everywhere...

And what is 'banding'?

Oh Jamiekins, now for asking, you're in for a treat ! :)
Wheres mkingdom2 when you need him/her ?

And more to the original topic, here's David Leibovitz with his perfectly timed report on Paris safety tips. I suspect he was inspired by this thread !
http://www.davidlebovitz.com/2013/06/paris-safety-tips/

Now I am intrigued!!!

Mathieu, I just finished reading that report. Actually if you click on the link he provides there is a very interesting short film on what steps the French police have been trying to take to combat theft by organized crime from Romania.

Everyone and especially the unexperienced travelers should read this article.