Jay_G, within the context of comparing the struggling Eurozone and other large cities in America, I stand by my statement. I did not say NYC felt nothing. However, in a city this populated, it's not easy to <i>feel</i> 10% unemployment, especially when there's a wait of 30 minutes to buy fresh produce at Whole Foods, and/or endure a month lead time to get a reservation at a top-50 restaurant. Also, home foreclosures did not occur much in Manhattan.

Furthermore, I've lived in NYC since the Koch admin., when street crime was at an all-time high. Yes, some Fodorites know I was mugged here, which explains why I took self-defense classes in the early 80's.

Street crime did not change much after 2008. We expected it, but nothing came remotely close to those awful years in the early 80's.

The fashion industry has been complaining for some time about the conditions in Paris. I'm surprised the mainstream media is not writing more about its effect on tourism.

Surfmom: I have bookmarked the Kelly More Riva bag, which looks great. I traveled with a DSLR last two European trips. This time I decided I wanted to travel light and am bringing a G1 X, which I'm impressed with so far. The Pacsafe bag will carry that plus umbrella, iPad mini, kindle, wallet, guidebook.

My husband firmly believed that his wallet was safe in his front pocket until a pickpocket relieved him of it during morning rush hour on the Madrid Metro. These guys are very good at what they do.

Same here. Two friends with wallets in their front pockets. Bye bye wallets.

DH also has a chain on wallet that he attaches to his belt loop. In close quarters, DH keeps his hand on his pocket or on his wallet. We've never lost more than an umbrella on any of our many trips to Europe.

Love my PacSafe!
http://pacsafe.com/www/index.php?_ro...=detail&id=226
(in black of course)

Everything is so handy and right in front of me. It's not large but if something won't fit in this shoulder bag, I leave it home or in the room!

While standing next to my friend recently in Cusco, he had his backpack unzipped but they left mine alone. Who knows, but I like to think they picked him as an easier mark! :)

Pickpockets are found in all major cities with tourist visitors. There are many common sense suggestions for mitigating the risk as discussed here. The fact that the Louvre shut for a day b/c of it is indication of a greater problem than one might normally experience. It would have been just as newsworthy if it had been NYC's Met or the British Museum.

Am in Paris at the moment and have seen signs **everywhere** in the most touristed spots alerting to the presence of pickpockets. We are enjoying the city immensely but it does take a toll. Have seen a few of the sorts of scams described here, none yet directed at us.

>>You also say that police presence is strong on the subway, but there were none around on the train I was on the to Bronx when a homeless guy started ranting and raving, forced open the doors of the moving train so he could throw out whatever he was eating and start hassling the women in the carriage. No-one did anything to stop him, or call the police. In fact, when he finally got off, my aunt turned to me and said "welcome to New York".<<

Saw a similar sort of thing returning to the hotel from the French Open yesterday. Man marching up and down the car ranting at anyone and everyone. Didn't see the need to contact police but didn't make eye contact with him either.

<i><font color=#555555>"You also say that police presence is strong on the (NYC)subway"</font></i>

It's about as strong as it was during the Giuliani administration (the strongest in my history).

<i><font color=#555555>"but there were none around on the train I was on…"</font></i>

For goodness, common-sense sakes, I never said the police were everywhere for all people at all times. That's just a bit silly. On top of that, most homeless people here are not criminals looking to rob tourists. This thread is about crime directed at tourists, not homelessness.

<i><font color=#555555>"No-one did anything to stop him"</font></i>

Stopping people in NYC from ranting in public? Are you kidding me? If you live here, you need to rant at times, no matter your mental state. Everyone knows it.

On most occasions, ordinary people will not touch the homeless. And there are a variety of smart reasons for that. Many of the homeless here suffer from mental disease, and public ranting is a common symptom. Most of us know that the vast majority of mentally-impaired homeless are harmless.

<i><font color=#555555>"or call the police"</font></i>

I've never had luck using a cell phone in the underground subway to call anyone, and unless New Yorkers sense imminent danger, we tend not to bother police with the perception of trivial concerns. However, when we do sense grave danger, or when we see a tourist physically accosted, there's always someone around who is willing to help. Police get called, and they arrive quickly. You simply can't keep crime rates low if this in not the case.

Friends of ours just returned from a 3 week trip to Europe and they did not have trouble with pick pockets until they got to Paris. The husband found a pickpocket's hand in his pocket while at the Louvre and at Versailles and also at a train station. He had nothing in his pockets so lost nothing. Our friend is 6'7" tall and he said the guys ran very fast when he caught them redhanded.

Thanks to everyone who posted here. Are pickpockets going to scare me from going to Paris this fall? No. But it is very helpful to know what the scams are to to be able to watch out for them.

Last week in Florence an American tourist was stabbed by a pickpocket in broad daylight just outside the Duomo, where they had stopped to listen to street musicians. He resisted losing his wallet, so the guy stabbed him. Last I heard, the fellow had emergency surgery to repair his lung and they removed one kidney. It's good to be aware this is a problem in Europe, not just in Paris. Another friend's traveling companion recently lost her camera in Brussels to a pickpocket.

People post as if it was only tourists who are crime victims. In Paris, many Parisians get robbed, just like in New York city, it is mostly New Yorkers who get robbed, not tourists. Just because you live someplace and watch out for crime does not mean you can't be a victim.

It is better not to carry valuable things on the street, especially if you have never been on those streets before. Also, forget about being talkative with people you don't know. Just go about the business to came to Paris to see. Don't be distracted by people trying to create theatre or be your friend.

One more idea I wanted to add:

I notice people here use the word gypsy or Roma like other people in past times used the word "jew". There were of course some jews who cheated people but to imagine all jews were like that resulted in terrible horrors to jewish people. Please do not talk of gypsies and Romas as if you knew who they were, especially if you come to Europe only a few days in your life and otherwise live in a country like America, where you cannot tell who is what ethnicity. Elvis Presley was a Roma. So was Mother Teresa. Please do no talk as if you knew gypsies.

<i>frenchfrenchie on Jun 2, 13 at 6:40pm
One more idea I wanted to add:
I notice people here use the word gypsy or Roma like other people in past times used the word "jew". Please do no talk as if you knew gypsies.</i>

I've had more than one up-close and personal encounter with gypsies in Europe, maybe a dozen or more from Warsaw to Madrid and Bulgaria to Dublin and most major cities including Paris and Milan. Gypsies, the women, are easily identified by their colorful long dresses, scarves, and a mis-matched coat in the winter. They hang out in packs of 8 to 12 in busy tourist areas, pretty much filling the sidewalk. The women do all the work, especially the young ones. There is nothing in my travels anywhere that so quickly sends a chill up my spine. The best defense is to take their photo. They hate that. I especially like to use my video camera and get the action. They run like rabbits. For amusement, sit at a cafe across the street from the Gare du Nord in Paris and watch the pack when the police drive up. The pack quickly departs, then the police get back in their cars and drive away. The pack reassembles and is back in minutes.

Great. I'll be arriving at Gare du Nord. Not sure If I'd be better off switching to Metro at that point, or go outside to look for a taxi stand. I really would rather avoid a "pack."

I think I know -- switch to RER connection at Paris Nord, get off at St. Michel.

<i>susan001 on Jun 2, 13 at 8:35pm
Great. I'll be arriving at Gare du Nord. Not sure If I'd be better off switching to Metro at that point, or go outside to look for a taxi stand. I really would rather avoid a "pack."</i>

I believe that the taxi stand for pickups is at the SE corner of the station on rue de Maubeuge. The gypsy pack hangs near the taxi drop off point on the south side of the station on Place Napoleon III. They accost every arriving passenger, even before they get out of their taxi.

That's unbelievable. Thanks for the tip. I may see if I can get on the RER to St. Michel station, which is just a few blocks from my hotel.

In today's NY Times:

<i>"The complexity and tragedy of the problem are easily seen here in Paris at the Gare du Nord, one of the busiest transportation hubs in France."</i>

<i>"The politicians have also focused on petty crime, like pickpocketing and the theft of smartphones, which they associate with Roma. Recently, the Louvre was shut down for a day in protest because groups of young men were harassing staff members and visitors. (The museum is free for those under 18.) The Louvre now has a warning on its Web site about pickpockets."</i>

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/04/wo...nted=1&_r=0&hp

We arrived at Gare du Nord on Eurostar in December. It was our first trip to Europe, but we travelled as a family, and with three teenage kids we were able to "circle the wagons" when stopped and trying to get our bearings, or while one of us went to buy tickets / food / etc.
Because of our obvious vigilance (i think), the few that tried to "help" us quickly gave up - in fact it became a bit of a competition for us to identify who would be targeted next, as we watched confused and heavily laden tourist drag luggage down the stairs, then gaze about them with puzzlement as to what to do next - many of them were very receptive to offers of help!
To be fair, however, we also saw lots of petition collectors in Florence and Rome, and as many people offering "help" to tourists in train stations in Venice, Florence and Rome.
Maybe there were smaller crowds in the cold of December -although there were plenty of Christmas shoppers in the streets (but perhaps not as many tourists?), tourist attractions were less crowded. The Metro was busy - we used Line 1 daily, as we were staying in the Marais between St Paul and Bastille and never had any problems - the other benefit of travelling in the cold of course is that it is easier to wear coats - firmly buttoned and with inside pockets!

From Tuesday's NY Daily News:

"Violence surged like the mercury Sunday, with three more fatalities from gun violence — and eight others wounded in shootings — bringing the total number of bullet-riddled in the city to 25 in less than 48 hours."

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.1361388

and the Village Voice from last year;

"For the First Time in 20 Years, New York's Crime Rate Is on the Rise"

http://www.villagevoice.com/2012-10-...e-rate-rising/

We could go back and forth like this for a while...

And I could chime in here too - I wandered around Mid-town Manhattan on my own late at night - including after midnight - when I was there in early 2010.
Didn't feel unsafe at all - not even heading to Penn Station at 4.30am one morning to catch the early train to DC.

It might help that I'm 6'2" and a bit over 200lbs - or maybe I just love the experience of travel so much that I exercise caution, but don't allow unreasonable fear to stop me from having a fabulous time!

Jay_G, there you go again comparing apples to oranges. What on earth does gang violence in the outer reaches of New York City (there are 5 boroughs, ya know, and each is huge) have to do with focused crime against vulnerable tourists in the heart of Paris?

Did you happen to notice your Village Voice article stated "most likely" for crime rise in NYC this year? It was a prediction from the Village Voice, certainly no friend of Bloomberg.

Yes, folks looking to play some kind of game can go back and forth. But smart people know a waste of time when they see it.

Hello FoodSnob,
I posted those links to show that crime goes on everywhere, only some people don't allow it to stop them from travelling to certain places.

I'm trying to highlight how much of an overreaction it is from people to say that they'll never travel to a certain place again because someone they know (must be one of the vulnerable tourists you mention in your post) had their pocket picked.

The irony of your last sentence is a thing of beauty...

Dear Jay,

Crime goes on everywhere? Really?

Feel free to tell a 14-year-old girl, who got robbed and spit upon in public while her mother came to her defense, that her not wanting to return to Paris is an "overreaction." I won't do that.

And neither will I FoodSnob.

My post was directed to people who say things like;

"The current thug situation in Paris is completely out of control"

and

"these are not good days to visit Paris"

based on an isolated (admittedly hugely unpleasant) experience that happened to someone else. It seems that this sort of mindset goes hand-in-hand with finding it noteworthy that someone on the metro might respond in French when accused of theft.

Isolated experience? When was the last time the Metropolitan Museum of Art in NYC shut its doors due to street crime?

Get real Jay_G.

FoodSnob, you're comparing apples and oranges (apparently).

From what I've heard, the marvellous mayor Bloomberg wouldn't countenance such a possibility.

As you well know, I meant isolated in the sense that to be spat on as part of a robbery is incredibly uncommon and unlikely to happen to many other people, if at all.

I know you find it surprising that people in Paris speak French, but surely you can realise that not everyone can (or should) be terrified of travelling to Paris just because you think they should.

Get real Jay_G.

I have been to Paris 3 times in the past 15 months and will be going again at the end of June. Not to jinx myself, but I felt as safe in Paris as in any other big city. Two times I was approached by people with pretended to find "gold" rings. I had not heard about this scam, but was wary and they left me alone without further incident. The second time I even laughed and told the woman "your the second" in French.
On the other hand in the middle of April I watched a young man snatch a cell phone out of the hand of a young woman around the corner from my building (no tourists involved). Yes, two of us tried to help her (thought it didn't do any good). New Yorkers will often try to help, but not always and I don't think they are any more virtuous than other people. I was in Prague a few years ago and was quite touched by how quickly people on the subway jumped up to give my mother a seat - much more so than in NY.
The problem is that tourists tend to look like tourists. They have cameras around their necks and guidebooks and maps in very visible places. They can look lost and confused. They dress inappropriately. My advice (and I travel a lot) - keep your tourist-type items out of sight as much as possible- camera, books, maps in bag. Take them out when you need them. Don't look lost and try to blend in as much as possible.
We travel for interesting and positive experiences. But sometimes things go wrong. It doesn't mean that you can condemn an entire city (or an entire ethnicity). The problem of poverty and minorities in Europe is incredibly complicated and I don't think you can summarize it as "how to recognize gypsies (who are presumed to be bad)" or "the recession is causing crime in Europe." Just as I don't think you can judge the recession in NYC by the lines at Whole Foods - perhaps watching people with food stamps at a Key Food in the South Bronx would be a better. If you can't deal with it better to stay home.

<i><font color=#555555>"I don't think you can judge the recession in NYC by the lines at Whole Foods"</font></i>

I don't think you can, either. My comment about Whole Foods was never intended to be considered serious economic analysis.

<i><font color=#555555>"perhaps watching people with food stamps at a Key Food in the South Bronx would be a better"</font></i>

I have never been to a Key Food. I have never been to the South Bronx. In my 30+ years of living, working, and shopping for groceries in Manhattan, I've never seen a patron pay for food with food stamps.

<i><font color=#555555>"But sometimes things go wrong. It doesn't mean that you can condemn an entire city"</font></i>

When 100 Louvre employees stage a walkout to protest the escalating crime, that's enough condemnation for me.

"Sometimes" suggests once-in-awhile. I don't believe for a minute (given what I'm hearing from people who work there) that Paris is having just another ordinary challenge with crime.

To Amy (OP): I hope you have a wonderful theft-free vacation, and that you sorted out which camera bag to take with you. Just make sure your cards and cash are secure in a money belt (or PacSafe - type locking bag).

It's just good to be aware that this is going on in the highly touristed places. Here is the NYT article on the Louvre closing in April: http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/20...ts-the-louvre/

So what is the law on self-defence? Most of the posts from people who say they've never been targeted seem to be from Caucasians. However, I'm Chinese-Canadian and I'm headed to Paris in a couple of weeks. I have no problems dealing with pickpockets as I don't carry anything in my pockets. I also don't carry a lot of money as I use credit cards. But if someone gets aggressive, can I push them back or even use more force?

Compared to London, Madrid, Frankfurt, Munich, and Kiev, Paris is pretty sketchy.

Thanks Susan! I forgot that I HAVE a PacSafe bag (purchased after the last trip in Paris where my wallet was lifted.) I have decided to bring it for our trip although probably will only use it for the first day.

Re the aggression -- I really have no idea and have never been physically touched that I can recall, but I'm not a big target of scamsters. The only ones recently that have approached me have been those with some scam petition to sign or something, I just don't engage with them and just say "non" tersely, they get the hint not to mess with me, actually, and that I won't entertain nonsense. Other than that, I see panhandlers, etc on the street or elsewhere, but they are sitting there, not approaching people.

I don't think they push people much, haven't heard of that, although there have been reports on here of some very aggressive guys around Sacre Coeur, so beware. I would certainly think you could push someone back without it being a criminal offense, I can't imagine why not. As for "use more force"? what exactly are you hinting at, I really think you may be imagining things a lot worse than they are. Not to say "muggings" as we call them in the US don't occur in Paris, they do, actually (that is petty theft involving some force).

By "use more force" I mean if someone decided to try to grab your backpack and you end up fighting him over it...using more force may involve punching him in the face or breaking his arm. I know the advice is to just let them have it, but sometimes your initial reaction is to fight back...

Assuming of course that you are stronger than your attacker and they don't have a weapon. Breaking an arm? Not so easily done and the attacker would certainly try to defend himself. Not a wise idea.

Running rabbit stop thinking its like robbery , pickpocketing is like stealing by stealth.. and while you may push someone away off of you, you may not attack them.

Keep in mind a lot of pickpockets are children, some are old women, , so you hardly need to beat them up, you sound like you are itching to get in a fight,, don't . You will be put in jail.

Exactly right. A lot of children are forced into pickpocketing and would you really break the arm of a child?
And by the way, how do you assume who is Caucasian on this Forum and who is not? And why do you assume an Asian is more of a target?