Parisian hotel lobby goes on the attack
 

This article appeared in Friday's edition of Le Parisien.
http://www.leparisien.fr/economie/ai...16-5908951.php
It's important to note that the hotel lobby has not only lodged a complaint against AirBnB, but has included all vacation rental listings which appear on internet platforms. It's also important to note that the hotel lobby has an awful lot of "muscle".

The courts have accepted to pursue the complaint, since at least 6 serious crimes - punishable by prison terms - are linked to the way the agencies/individuals operate.
The most serious is linked to failure to declare revenue or pay taxes in France, which would put the operators in prison for 3 years for money-laundering. This means the property owner would go to prison, not the agency which represents the property, though it's possible that the agency might be involved as an accomplice.
Another is "acting as a hotelier or real estate agent without prior authorization as a member in a recognized organization".

AirBnB refused to comment on this article, only stating that the company was outraged over the actions of the hotel lobby, which doesn't understand the way people want to travel now.
AirBnB, which lists its fiscal residence in Ireland, even though France is the agency's 3rd most popular venue, only paid 90K euros in French taxes in 2014, based on an approximate 140,000 listings in Paris.

I suspect we will be spending less time in Paris in the coming years, unless we win the lottery and can afford to buy a share in an apartment. Or will they also be cracking down on multiple-owner properties that are not otherwise "on the market" for vacation rentals?

Could be. There are taxes for unoccupied flats in some cities.

AirBnB responds in such a childish way, that the govt doesn't understand that people want to do this. It doesn't care about anything but making money. IN a city like Paris with so many apartments and so much tourism, private vacation letting can affect so many issues that the government has to be concerned about -- the economy, current tenant and residents rights, govt tax revenues, character of the city if so many buildings are turned into vacation rentals only, businesses, foreign investment also affecting local owners and investors, etc. Airbnb doesn't care about anything but itself. They could disagree, but I don't understand how they would have the nerve to claim they are "outraged" by the hotel lobby's position.

However, the figures are a bit old, being quoted from 2014. I thought AirBnB made some arrangement with the govt to try to stave off trouble that AirBnB itself would collect taxes and turn them in. So that figure from 2014 should change, I thought (amt of taxes collected).

Regarding apartments voluntarily left vacant, the city of Paris raised the tax on secondary residences by 20% last year

Regarding apartments voluntarily left vacant, the city of Paris raised the tax on secondary residences by 20% last year and plans to increase that tax by 100% this year.

As for totally empty apartments, there is currently a tax of 12.5% of the yearly rental value the first year and a 25% tax the second year. The plan is to increase this tax by 400%.

Christina: "AirBnB responds in such a childish way, that the govt doesn't understand that people want to do this. It doesn't care about anything but making money...Airbnb doesn't care about anything but itself."

I guess I'm childish too, I must not care about anyone but myself and only want to make money with my Airbnb listing. But to make money I must offer a good value, attractive accommodation and treat my guests well. It's what travelers want. Silly me, silly Airbnb for providing a valuable service.

Boundaries are being pushed, compromises will be made. Change will certainly include respect for the rights of residents and it will all come right in the end. I'm interested to see how Paris makes it work.

<i>Parisian hotel lobby goes on the attack</i>

I was hoping for a thread about a rabid pack of tourist information leaflets.

I was too, dotheboyshall, a much more interesting possibility than yet another of these.

Apparently AirBnB doesn't understand the way that law-abiding citizens want businesses to pay taxes now.

Airbnb collects and pays taxes where local governments require them to do it. Otherwise, we collect and pay the taxes ourselves, as I do, 10% bed tax to the county plus any income tax owed. Very straightforward. Except for those who enjoy not understanding better.

There will always be tax avoiders. But Airbnb reports our income where they're asked to report. They understand perfectly well and comply.

you live in an area where it is legal to rent out your place . . . that has absolutely nothing to do w/ airbnb's activities in places like Paris and NYC. Total apples and oranges

Just saw that stupid airbnb TV commercial again last night about "Don't visit Paris, don't do Paris, LIVE in Paris"

They are actively promoting an illegal industry . . . <i>in Paris</i> not in NorCal.

Some of the complaints above are specific to Paris. Some are just the the usual airbnb whining. And hall monitoring.

I'm really disappointed. From the title I was expecting a horror story about a hotel lobby that swallowed guests - or checked them in but not out - like Hotel California.

>>Some of the complaints above are specific to Paris. Some are just the the usual airbnb whining. And hall monitoring.<<

Everyone that I see is responding to the situation in Paris specifically, and airbnb not playing by the rules <u>in Paris</u>. . . except you telling us you pay local taxes -- but that isn't in Paris so what it has to do w/ anything I'm not sure.

Participating in the discussion is allowed -- it ain't 'hall monitoring'

I can't be the only one feeling like something unpleasant around here is yapping at my heels.

60% of the French use a holiday rental when they go on vacation. There is absolutely no problem with this outside the big cities.

As I write this, I am at my vacation apartment located along the Mediterranean coast. I have rented this apartments each summer for over 13 years. It is perfectly legal.

If you own an apartment in Paris, rent it to others and this apartment is not your principal residence, what you are doing is illegal.

It's quite simple actually.

Mme Perdu
It is a question of legality.
Renting owners who don't comply to the law is the same as buying Vuitton bags off the street. It is cheaper, but we all know it is illegal.
Before the new laws and the publicity, tourists could say they didn't know, now they can't.
So either you continue to rent from thieves (because they are... since they don't comply to the law and don't pay income taxes) via accomplices of thieves (AirBnb, because they are much more aware of the situation than we all are) or you pay the price.
Sure it is more expensive... I also would love to buy a brand new Porsche for 10 k$, but it is just not legally possible.
As for the owners of apartments in Paris, well ... they had their white bread, haven't they ?
Now they will have to cope with 1 digit yield or their investment. Like you and I from the bank.
No better than from the bank. Should I cry that they cannot have 20+% on their investments ?

Well, based on the action in NY - the state legislature has just passed a bill that makes not just renting out but also advertising illegal sublets a crime - which should allow them to essentially shut down Air BnB in the city. It will be more difficult with some of the "agents" whose offices are actually in Nigeria or Ghana, etc - but I'm sure they will find a way to do so.

People simply need to understand that the availability of affordable apartments to tax paying locals is much more important than profits of Air BnB or other companies who are overtly flouting the laws. Until the day the bill passed Air BnB was jawing away about how they were negotiating with the state to make their services legal (just a delaying tactic).

Note this does no affect people who are subletting their entire house in vacation areas or even NYC - they are still entitled to do that. It's the subletting of apartments designated for city rent stabilization or middle income families that is illegal.

nytraveler - this is included in the article I linked. No listings by individuals or agencies will be permitted unless they have been cleared by the City.

The most interesting aspect about the lawsuit is that the property owners will face time in prison.
Agencies will probably face fines, if they don't comply to the letter of the law.
I would expect a flurry of "turn-key" apartment listings in the real estate section in the very near future.

Companies such as AirBnB, Uber and others who use the "social sharing network" as an excuse to make money have lost sight of the fact that if no revenue is declared and no taxes are paid, nobody will have any benefits in the socialized system which exists in Paris. Awfully short-sighted for companies who claim to care about their customers and clients.

As for the US - it's a free country.

I applaud Mme Perdu for ensuring she pays the appropriate imposts, but she is one of the minority Airbnb hosts who do. And Airbnb has no compulsory mechanism built in to ensure hosts are appropriately registered with their local govt authorities, & paying the relevant taxes. There's the loophole.

Travellers love Airbnb in the short term because it is cheaper right now. But the long term damage is the run-down of municipal services and infrastructure as tax revenue is not there to fund them. Not to mention tourism promotion. Big cities like Paris hardly need any marketing, as we all know, but for smaller destinations to compete for an audience, they need tourism associations well funded by local members to promote. Otherwise, no visitors. Very few of the Airbnb hosts contribute to their local tourism assocs...they just ride on the coat-tails of those who do. It's all short term gain for long term problems.

It does seem a real shame that in the end, it will be the property owners who are punished, while the people who worked for the agencies will get nothing in the way of normal benefits. The agencies which were paid to represent the property owners will get off pretty much scott-free.

Of course, it will be interesting to see how agencies like AirBnB, HomeAway, TripAdvisor and so forth will mutate into some other form of money-making monsters.

I just started reading these threads as I have been renting thru VRBO, Homeaway and more recently Airbnb for over 12 years.
I am a bit confused by it all. Trying hard to comprehend what the real issue(s) are here?
The last comment about such agencies morphing into "some other form of money-making monsters" sounds somewhat like a political complaint against "free market capitalism".
My hope is that I can ascertain what the real issue is as I was/am planning a month long stay in an Airbnb rental in Lisbon this Fall.
Is the issue that Airbnb is not complying faithfully with the tax laws? If so, then this should not be so hard to enforce, like any tax cheat but to try and ban this company from doing business (typical of NY values!) because they are infringing on the hotel industry or for that matter to hurt "wealthy" foreign investors?
The free market has a way of correcting itself, if allowed to do so.
I for one, have my own selfishness at stake as if I am no longer given the option of renting through these agencies for whatever the disputed reasons, my vacations will be not as long and not as comfortable.

>> I was/am planning a month long stay in an Airbnb rental in Lisbon this Fall. <<

Has nothing at all to do w/ Lisbon.

This is a Paris-specific issue (and NYC, and Santa Monica, and other places w/ laws and regulations re short term rentals)

Probably should check on the Lisbon forum for better information.
AirBnB doesn't always cooperate with city regulations, so it would be best to find out if they do in Lisbon.

It is not only hotels and councils that object to AirBnB. People actually object to having their buildings/neighborhoods morph into hotels.

'AirBnB doesn't always cooperate with city regulatiosn.'

What city regulations does AirBnb not comply with???

Since October 1st of 2015 they have been collecting the city taxes.

So, what other Paris city regulations are they not complying with??

P.S. I'm not talking about regulations that the city of Paris may be considering, but already enacted laws.

I'm no expert, iris, but I suspect AirBnB has no problem renting out apartments that are supposed to be owner-occupied for at least 8 months of the year but actually aren't even owner-occupied or aren't just rented for the 4 months the owners are allowed to rent them.

Those are already enacted laws that have been blatantly flouted by AirBnb, VRBO, Homeaway, and many others.

More one-sided attacks on airbnb by fuzz - what happened to fair and balanced?

I wonder, if the powers that be in Paris really wanted Airbnb & their ilk shut down, couldn't they devise a mechanism by which they might shut them down within the city? I can't imagine that they couldn't.

Perhaps we should clarify that rules affecting airbnb and other listing agents of short term accommodations do not originate with the City of Paris. All rental laws origination with the national government.

Airbnb and other similar agencies went years without collecting and forwarding the required <i>taxe de séjour</i>. It was only when they were threatened with action requiring them to pay the back taxes they had neglected to pay that they decided to <i>cooperate</i> with the government. So no, airbnb does not always cooperate with local regulations.

Currently, there is talk of a lawsuit against airbnb for their failure to secure properly licensed personnel to overseer and handle the money which they receive from rentals.

It is true that the Sénat is currently in discussions which would require airbnb and other similar companies to list only legal apartments. All owners would be required to list their properties with the city and agencies would be required to limit their listings only to properties so registered.

Actually, the 'tourist tax' is a laughably small detail, less than 2 euros a day, even though it adds up to several million euros over the year.

The main requirement for AirBnb and the other rental companies now is that they must declare all revenue collected to the government, just like employers. This is just the same as traditional employers, who declare all of the salaries paid to their personnel, since you can't really trust the employees themselves to be totally honest. This condition is total anathema to the illegal renters because it reveals their turpitude.

In the working world, at the end of the year, an employer must declare to the government everything that has been paid, and also give a copy to the employee so that they will know what to declare.

What could be simpler? The problem is that both the rental companies (AirBnb...) and the apartment owners are fraudulent accomplices. Since AirBnb is also making a bundle off the illegal rentals, every amount they declare means that they will have to pay a bigger business tax.

This too is free market capitalism.

Those are already enacted laws that have been blatantly flouted by AirBnb, VRBO, Homeaway, and many others.>

so you want to just do away with all of these options - all apartment rentals that many Fodorgarchs are fond of recommending as an alternative to hotels -not always because they are cheaper.

Let's give the hotels an absolute monopoly on where folks can stay. No more gites rented in France lest the locals get upset with the sight of tourists, etc.

Fuzz got the title right - Hotel Lobby that wants to have a monopoly as their number one goal.

Someone on the current VRBO thread said today that online booking of vacation rentals was not in her "comfort zone" and "getting back to basics is likely to return...", apparently meaning if we're patient it'll all go away. I think this sort of wishful thinking applies here too. If enough people squirm and whine everyone will just go back to staying in hotels, as all good tourists should. Well, it seems to me that now, as it ever has been, the world changes and rarely goes back to the old ways of doing things.

Regulation is always playing catch-up and so it will regarding owners & renters. The phenomenon won't go away, society will cope by compromising so everyone will get some of what they want. No one will get everything they want, except maybe the tax collectors who, along with the poor, will always be with us (along with the cheaters).

PalenQ - you know better than this - gites are not the same as hotels. Rural areas vs urban areas, among many other differences.

MmePerdu - can you post a link to "the current VRBO thread"?

its this one on the US board:

http://www.fodors.com/community/unit...e-whats-up.cfm

All this has been discussed at lenght.
SO let us summarize :
Apartment renting was offered as an alternative, as well as gîtes, to hotels. It actually made hotels react and in the long run made them offer a better service for less money.

Then companies came and saw a way of making a large profit by linking offer and demand of apartments in cities.
The myth of 'living like a local' took shape.
The thing went very well. So it attracted a lot of investors who saw a chance to make a huge profit. Obviously these people forgot to declare their revenues and therefore cheated the local authorities.

On top of that it didn't help locals to buy properties in such hig touristy cities. Mind you, there are still a few locals living in Paris who would like to live like a local, not 100 kms away.
Then the city woke up and decided to enforce a law voted at national level.

And oh ! Shame ! some investors now are reminded they have to comply with the law, and must choose between :
- living in Paris and renting a max of 4 months OR
- complying with commercial rules and rent legally their apartment full time.
for this they must comply with safety rules (like hotels) and ... pay taxes on revenues ! disgusting move from the authorities.

Now we have on one side the capitalists saying that Fuzz is a Commie because she wants Airbnb checking that they don't work with thieves, and on the other side we have the socialists who want capitalists to pay taxes, provide a safe commercial service and allow some residents to find a place to stay at a reasonable price.

Do I let it show that full capitalism is a nightmare and cares only about short term revenues, not bothering about locals, taxes, safety, and finally service to the client?

I own (sorry, my wife does) an apartment in Waterloo. We rent it all year long, declare it to the authorities, make a huge profit of about 3,2% a year. I don't divide it in several tiny cubicles and sublet it to illegals who have no papers and accept to pay comparatively a fortune. Why am I a disgusting guy findind Fuzz correct in her asumptions that one should comply with the law before making a profit ?

Why would a tourist be allowed to live like a local by accessing underpriced properties that are actively cheating the system ?
You want to visit Paris ? You pay a FAIR price and contribute to local taxes. Which actually enable it to run a very cheap metro system, make it possible to clean the streets of dogpoo.

But no, some tourists want it all : a clean Paris with easy access to the 'attractions' without paying for it.
Sorry if I don't find it just. You want Paris for nothing ? well it won't be possible (anymore). And now you know that in most cases, you are supporting an illegal activity.

Again, I find myself agreeing with Whathello.