egwright10: I'm glad you posted your experiences and I had to smile while reading some of your items. I've been basically going to Paris, almost annually, since the mid-70s and when I think back to the very first trip, I can understand many of your observations.

It's a list that could help some newbies, so I see no harm in posting it. Glad you had a great trip.

Happy Travels!

I liked all your observations. They are among the observations I made on my earliest trips abroad, and they are things that still strike me after many trips. I think those who were critical must have been in a cranky mood yesterday since all you offered were your observations. Others have followed up with additional good observations.

France is a high context society, a place where there are many rules, and we don't know them until we learn them. You have done very well except on the ticket issues, where I shudder to think what would have happened had you been caught. I will simply say that ignorance of the law is no excuse. But you were lucky!

I hope you are looking forward to your next trip. The tough part will be deciding whether to go back to Paris, where you already know a lot of the rules, or going to England or Italy, where there is a whole new set of rules to learn!

As for the dinner hour, we are of course talking about restaurants. When I'm on vacation, in the US or Paris, we eat late--maybe not 10, but usually 8. But we have always eaten later than 6 for sure!!
And something not exactly covered by the checklist, that table at dinner is "yours" for the evening, if you want to linger. And the waiter will not be constantly pushing you for your next course, and most especially for your check--you have to ask for it.
And yes, Europeans have learned MUCH better than we have to be conservation minded and bring bags--otherwise you can pay for them. Take your bags HERE to the supermarket. We don't need more plastic.
Also, definitely in the no nap the first day group.

Hoosier Reader, I see nobody has answered your question about the kids trying to get people to sign their petitions. This is a form of panhandling. People approach you with petitions to sign and ask for donations for phony charities.

Yes - but Paris isn't a small town or a rural area. Why would one expect it to be like a small town - rather than like other large cities?

Unless the OP hasn't eve visited other large cities - or somehow missed the differences between big cities and rural areas - or eaten in real restaurants versus fast food joints - many of these things should NOT be a surprise.

I 'm sorry if I sound cranky - but I feel like I just saw a huge list of items like:

The earth isn't flat and you won't fall off
The streets are full of traffic
Everyone in France speaks French
You don;t get automatic refills on all your beverages (you don't in cities in the US either - or in restaurants anywhere)
They don;t serve breakfast at 6 am (no - most people are still sleeping - same as in the US)

One of the questions I would ask when doing workshops on cultural differences is this:

You are invited to a party at 6 PM. What time do you actually arrive?

The differences, like when one appropriately eats dinner, were enormously varied. And these were only from people who live in the United States.

The fact that everyone else in the world laughs at New Yorkers who stand "on" line rather than "in line" doesn't stop New Yorkers from saying it nor mean that they don't ever get to the head of the line.

These are customs. No one is born knowing customs. You don't learn about what it is like to be in Rome from Woody Allen's latest fantasy. You learn the way children learn, but bumping up against things and adjusting your behavior. We don't slap children who don't know how to eat an artichoke. We explain and encourage them.

My family never ate dinner before 7:30, by the way, and I have eaten artichokes since I was a toddler.

It doesn't matter to me where I am, since I wake up with the sun, I like to eat dinner early.

It's never been a problem for me to eat at 6 or 7 wherever I've been.

The only place it hasn't made sense for me to get up at the crack of dawn is Spain. The last time we were there it was difficult to get an early morning coffee so we got into the rhythm of the late night dining.

"Yes - but Paris isn't a small town or a rural area. Why would one expect it to be like a small town - rather than like other large cities?"

Restaurant hours in Paris are not like restaurant hours in the US, including large cities. In Paris, most restaurants (as opposed to brasseries and cafes) are not open for dinner until 7:30 or later. In the US, including every large city I know, including New York, restaurants are open for dinner much earlier than that. If you are expecting restaurants to be open at 6:00, it is useful to know that in Paris they are not.

If you are expecting dinner at a restaurant to take an hour to an hour and a half, it is useful to know that in Paris it takes longer.

The list is things that the original poster learned. If they were new to her, they will be new to somebody else also.

nyt: At the finest restaurants in SF for example dinner service can start at 5:00 or 5:30 . . . Why do you find it so hard to understand why the later hours could be surprising to a first time visitor?

I agree with E G that the begging in the streets, whether overt or as post-petition signing, is surprising and disconcerting. Even in England it is veiled as Big Issue selling.

<< ... begging in the streets, whether overt or as post-petition signing, is surprising and disconcerting. Even in England it is veiled as Big Issue selling.>>

wrong, wrong, wrong.

The Big Issue exists to offer homeless people and those at risk of homelessness the opportunity to work and earn an income. Sellers have to buy the paper then sell it for a profit which they keep.

I have never encountered any seller behaving in any way that could be described as begging. They are polite and never insistent.

Even David Cameron described The Big Issue as ‘a fantastic example of how we can reduce dependence on state hand-outs’.

nytraveler- I have traveled to several big cities throughout the US: San Diego, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Phoenix, Chicago, Miami, DC, Philadelphia, and New York. However, dinner is always available by 5:00 in any of those places regardless of the type of restaurant you choose to dine in. Even with kids we don't eat fast food so your suggestions in regards to that are ridiculous. I feel as though you live a very different life from the people I know. In my world being up and even out of the house before 6am isn't unusual. So suggesting that you can't get breakfast at 6am because most people are still sleeping is ridiculous. In Phoenix, most people are leaving the house before 7am for work. And you DO usually get automatic drink refills at restaurants in the US. So you don't like my list? Don't comment. Have a little class.

I knew there was a reason I didn't want to return to NYC for anymore visits. Now I remember why.

I will return to Paris next year, though.

I would rather have people trying to sell me a paper than the "I will work for food" guys we have on our street corners in San Diego.

It's also better to see people working at taking care of a public restroom than hanging around doing nothing while they collect public assistance here.

apersuader65- Haha! :D Funny. The thing is, my OP mentioned the manners of the French...for a guy who seems to know so much about traveling and Paris, he appears to have forgotten those classic French manners. Oh well.

On a separate note, I've now been home for 3 days and the longer I am away from Paris, the more I want to return. I found myself dreaming of cappuccino and soupe a l'oignon gratinee today, as well as the sound of french being spoken around me and the beautiful views around every corner. I assume this is normal for those of you who love Paris?

LSky- the kids I saw were all deaf and were trying to get people (tourists really, as they were conveniently placed at very tourist heavy areas) to sign their petitions and give a MINIMUM donation of 70E! We were bombarded by these kids on a bridge by Notre Dame, Place du Tertre, and the Eiffel Tower. There were easily 15 kids at each post and so we weren't asked just once, but several times at each location. No one tried to sell us anything, they just wanted "donations".

Most of the people asking for money on the streets really played the sympathy card to get money- they had puppies, were dressed in military uniform, and even had their children!- on the street with them. The funny thing was, that we saw several of these people get up and talk on their cell phones. The one thing was was VERY different in comparison to the homeless in the US, not even one of those people directly asked for money and they were genuinely polite to those people who put money in their cups- they always said thank you. In the US I have been yelled at for not giving people money.

"When you're used to stores opening at 5:00am and people being out to run or get to work before 6:00am, 9:00 was late"

Where do you live that so many stores (and what type?) open at 5:00 a.m.?

"I found myself dreaming of cappuccino and soupe a l'oignon gratinee today, as well as the sound of french being spoken around me and the beautiful views around every corner. I assume this is normal for those of you who love Paris?"

and escargot...and vin rouge at a cafe in the rain...and Beef Bourguignon...and...."

Every day away from Paris just makes me want to return. I only wish there was a way we could be beamed there like Star Trek (see your #27).

((H))

Don't get too worked about the posts that seem negative. There are always some whose posts seem a bit sharp! There will definitely be lots of disagreements no matter what you post.

But, yes....I always miss my cafe creme and pain au chocolat (and all things Paris) when I get home.

vjpblovesitaly- I live in a suburb north of Phoenix. The grocery stores here all open either at 5:00 or 6:00am. The drug stores (CVS, Walgreens) open at 8:00. Where I grew up, in Western NY, the grocery is open 24 hours a day.

I also think there's an East Coast/ West Coast difference in times. Because we on the West Coast have to work with people on the East Coast and Europe, we'll typically start work earlier, like 8:00 or 8:30 and then end earlier too, so that our days overlap more. And anyone with kids likely has an earlier shift to their schedule, my 4th grader goes to bed at 8:00pm so I would not be going out to eat at that time! Here dinner is served at 6:00 and we all get hungry even on the weekends when we could eat later if we wanted.

Very good point Monica. 8:00 P.M. in NYC is only 5:00 p.m. on the West Coast.

Here in the midwest, we watch the 10 o'clock news, not the 11 o'clock news.

Monica I agree that there's a difference in times. I, for one, have no problem here in L.A. eating early at restaurants. If they have a time when they close after lunch and then reopen for dinner, it's not unusual that they reopen at either 5PM or 6PM. I seldom start eating at 8:00PM, although I'm a real night person. One can see from many of the times that I post on Fodors, that I can easily still be up at 2:00AM. But, that doesn't mean that I want to eat at 8PM. I get hungry early and thus eat early.

For over 30 years, I arrived to work around 7:15AM-7:30AM, up until a few months ago when I retired early, although I still work. Even on vacation I like to eat early which is why I rent apartments and have a kitchen. When I go out to eat in Paris, with Parisian friends, then we arrive at 7:30PM. But, a lot of times, I've already had my meal and then at the restaurant I will eat something very light to be social. I don't like a lot of food on my stomach late at night as I don't sleep well.

Happy Travels!

"I assume this is normal for those of you who love Paris?"

It seems these days I cannot pick up a book, see the television or even speak to someone without Paris coming up. It's been following me around and when it started I tried to avoid it but it's unavoidable, I must return to Paris.

tarquin: Big Issue vendors are not begging. They are selling an actual magazine and making legitimate ££.

They are working their way out of homelessness

http://www.bigissue.com/
http://www.bigissue.org.uk/

The same exists in France. The magazine is called "L'Itinérant."

OK, I was wrong. Because I do not actually want the Big Issue, I only buy it as a "donation."

egwright, thanks for the list. It contained many of the things I learned on my first Paris trip over 20 years ago. One thing you may have learned posting here is not everyone will take what you write in the spirit it which it was written. Take out the words Paris and French and you'll find the list could be about most places in Europe.

Getting around Paris Question: How about the VELIB bikes that many use in Paris? 30 minutes free. Exchange bikes after you visit a museum, monument, or have a lunch or dinner.
Has anyone done this?
MickMouse

Mick: You might want to start a new thread w/ your specific question instead of tacking on to a long thread about different things.

Thank you for explaining why young people approached me to sign a paper while I was in Paris this past summer. The sheet was on a clipboard and I thought once they put the clipboard under my nose someone would try to get into my purse or pockets. I said "no" and kept walking. Two days later, as I was near Sacre Coeur, I saw a policeman with some of these young ladies. He was frisking them, taking away their clipboards and pencils. What I found really strange was the way he frisked them. As he had them turn their backs to him he patted down their backs and make a "poke" in the center of each back with his knuckles (not hard, just a soft poke) before letting them go. The "poke" was a bit weird.

For the first time someone picked up a ring and walked over to me with it. I laughed and kept walking.

I was traveling alone and kept with my normal routine of going to dinner around 7pm. Sometimes I was the first person in the restaurant. That didn't bother me. Only once did I have a reservation for a very busy restaurant.

Something that bothered me was seeing so many young people smoking. One day there was a big music festival held throughout the city. Bands were set up every block or two. It was great fun. The weather in the evening was perfect and many, many people were out. It was clear to me that the majority of people were dining outdoors. I ate indoors most of the time as they could not smoke indoors. Where the outdoor tables were full, there were empty tables inside. As I walked around the city on the music festival evening I could barely breathe because of all the heavy smoke. Other nights it wasn't as bad, but it appeared that every young person had a lit cigarette. I don't remember noticing that during previous visits to Paris.

On the same trip, I found fewer young people smoking in Belgium and Holland, but people still were eating/smoking at outdoor restaurants while I ate inside where there were empty tables. Granted, it would have been nicer to dine outdoors. In all things, there are trade-offs.

Enjoyed reading this thread - thank you for sharing your experience - I think for new travellers there it will be very helpful. :)

Ah, egwright10. You've learned a valuable lesson today. God forbid, you should, in good will, post a list of helpful suggestions re travel. Every travel snob within miles will come out of the woodwork and either try to "one-up" you or just criticize or tear down your input. Good for you to keep responding . See ya.

egwright10:

Thanks for sharing your list of things that you learned while traveling in Paris.

I do hope you will post a trip report.

Sandy

egwright - I've travelled quite a lot in Europe [I live here, after all] and I thought that your list was helpful and informative, and you made it clear that it was just your thoughts, not universal truths.

ironically, some of those who have criticised you for generalising from your own experience, have fallen into the very same trap themselves.

I too would like to read your trip report.

Nytraveler sounds argumentative. He is trying to pass him/herself off as an experienced world traveler and is trying to act superior. Anyone who has travel experience realizes that cultures are different - and I think dining customs is a huge part of that. I am a young, married woman living in a capital city, and the idea of eating dinner at 8 is astonishing to me. I wake up at 5:45 am to go to the gym, work at 8:00am (not everyone works in a “store” – maybe I’m confused by this weird reference to store openings?), home by 5:00 and dinner at 6. If we are going out to socialize at a later time, it will be for appys and a drink. Everyone we know has a similar schedule, and it is very common in North America. When we have travelled to New York, we have noticed much of the same. Early risers getting to work, restaurants are busier around 6pm, etc... We have traveled all through Canada, US, Mexico and the Caribbean, and dining time has never been so different from our norm that it has stuck out.

it always surprises me when people have critical or negative things to say about a post. Just don't read it!!

We are planning our first trip to Paris and any advise or insight is welcome, in my opinion. I will be doing my research and every little bit counts. Even if it is repeat. Sometimes certain things sound questionable, but having multiple sources confirm it helps a person figure out the good advice from the bad.

Thanks for this post!

Welcome to Fodors emilyrichards. Not quite sure how you found this year old thread - But if you want advice/info you will do better to start a thread of your own.

And if you aren't looking for advice - guess you just topped this old thread to criticize another member.

I'm reading this old thread as well and I think it still is relevant today. What surprises me is how quickly some are with criticism . Sometimes it seems to be for spelling, sometimes for a simple report such as this,

If one is older eating early is a good thing. If my DH eats late, indigestion sets in. He's thin, and when younger never had problems with eating anytime. But when we eat latter, such as at Ruth Chris last week, indigestion set in. I'm not happy with the rattling of the Tums bottles around 1:00am.

It was interesting to read this list and if I didn't agree with everything, I don't feel the need to say anything. This was egwright10's experience.

Being from the south, we generally are polite group of people and I would never think to criticize a "Newbie". Posting here can be intimidating for some people, myself included, because sometimes the comments seem to be a bit snarky.
I have always loved Fodor's and tend to be a lurker. Maybe more people would be posting new threads
If they didn't feel attacked or made to feel foolish with their questions.
This is just my opinion. Peace!