Ordering coffee with pastries/desserts in cafes?
 

Just wanted to clarify something about ordering a coffee in Paris. It seems that if you are in a restaurant, and you order a coffee with dessert, you won't be brought the coffee until you are finished with the dessert - is this right?

But, since it is frowned upon to have coffee and dessert at the same time, what would be the etiquette of doing this at a cafe? Would ordering a coffee and a dessert at a cafe be proper etiquette?

I saw a post that said this, but I'm not sure what is the difference between having coffee with dessert in a restaurant compared to a cafe?

I don't see why you couldn't have coffee with your dessert if you wanted it. Just let the waitindividual know. After all, it's your money, your dessert, your coffee--I would think that in Paris most people would have had enough contact with foreigners to realize that not everyone likes to do things the way they do.

At least most of the Parisians I've met have been fairly knowledgable and sophisticated about such things.

> since it is frowned upon to have coffee and dessert at the same time..

I think you got a wrong information. The norm is coffee is served after the dessert but among my French friends, a couple of them ask all the time to bring coffee at the same time with dessert. No problem. I do that too some times when I'm sort of in a hurry but still want both dessert and coffee (or coffee and the check). No problem.

And you are asking whether you can order coffee and dessert at the same time at a cafe. Of course you can.

Hi anna,

If you want a coffee and a pastry, just ask for it.

If you are having dinner and want coffee with your dessert, just ask for it.

What coffee do you want: espresso, cappucino, cafe creme, cafe American, decaf?

>...waitindividual...<

Well, that's a new one.

Is it because "waitperson" is sexist in that it has "son" in it? :)

ira--yes, as you know, I always strive to be pc.

Right -- you can actually order and have whatever you want, whenever you want it, in a cafe. Waiters really do not care when a customer chooses to drink coffee in comparison to dessert. They do not frown if you decide you like it with dessert, instead of after. Well, if anyone did, why would you care? I sometimes have it with dessert as I like it to cut the sweetness and no waiter has refused or frowned at me for that.

You are worrying too much about little things.

Thanks everyone for your replies - I don't know how I should take them. I've would never have thought drinking coffee with dessert was a "no-no" until I began to frequent these boards for a couple of years.

All of you who have replied indicated that it's no problem, in a restaurant, to ask for the coffee to come with your dessert - but from looking up all the threads on this board, many have indicated that you shouldn't do so because it's frowned upon.

Don't get me wrong - I'm glad I got the replies I did, but I'm just confused since some of the info on this board can often contradict itself.

Christina - yes, this may seem like a small thing to worry about to you, but since I'm not familar with the culture, this is just more information that I would like to have.

Take your own super large coffee cup and have them fill it up so you don't have to yell for a re-fill! And if the dessert looks too darn puny, send it back and tell them to slap on some more.

Where is a thread saying that? Who has been misleading poor unsuspecting tourists all this time??

Anna, most of the time, Paris is just like NYC or somewhere in the US. They do all the same things we do. It just tastes better :)
And the fun thing is, you can do whatever you want, if you want eggs for dinner, ask for them.
There are rarely set in stone rules when it comes to ordering in the cafes, etc. Everywhere I have been, they ask you if you want dessert, and un cafe~
Enjoy~

Scarlett,

Thanks for the info - I know you've been a regular for a while, and I enjoy reading your posts.

To answer your question, just type in anything regarding "etiquette" and you will recieve a bunch of posts, from people claiming they know french culture, that it is highly improper to ask for a coffee with your dessert.

All the posts I researched, they said that if you are in a restaurant, they will not bring you your coffee until after you had dessert, and not to ask for your coffee w/dessert as it is impolite.

Now that this question has met with such a strong reaction, I'm thinking that the same people who tell you that you shouldn't ask for coffee with dessert are probably the same people who tell you not to wear blue jeans or sneakers in Europe.

I had just seen a post of someone saying how happy they were that the board has finally re-gained some sanity compared to a couple of years ago when about 80% of posters told everyone not to wear sneakers, since no one in Europe would!

Never had a problem in Paris, but did run into this exact issue once in Amsterdam. We had dinner at an upper-moderate restaurant, after finishing the main dish asked for coffee, then after sitting and sipping asked for dessert. The waitperson (so there, Rufus!) openly expressed shock, of course did not refuse us our dessert but kept repeatig the phrase "But you've already had coffee".
Never had it happen again anywhere else.

Hi anna :)
I looked but did not find the post. It would have been interesting as to who was giving out the "advice" LOL
I did though have a good laugh at some of those old etiquette threads! Thanks~
I am sure that as I have gone here and there, I have made plenty of faux pas and never knew. As someone here said recently, Take a deep breath, smile and enjoy yourself~
And please tell us about it when you return? ((F))

Scarlett,

If you search for "coffee with dessert" you will get a thread called "Dining Habits...". A few posters mention that you will receive your coffee after you have finished dessert.

I know there were more threads on this subject, but I can't remember exactly where they are.

OK, thanks, I will go look again. I got bogged down reading some of the funny ones..:)

OK, back again. Now- one of the ladies that posted that is very helpful, I am surprised she mentioned that.
But then I saw a couple of posters not known for being pleasant or polite and I take what they say with a very tiny grain of salt.
One gentleman said that he thought that the coffee with cake or after was because Americans are not used to drinking wine with dessert. That might be so, cheese and wine then dessert and wine followed by coffee to get you out the door.
But, people drink coffee with dessert everywhere and it will not be noticed if you order them together..I promise.

Thanks scarlett for your help! I'm always wary when dealing with the "unknown", so your posts have been very helpful!

We lived in Toulouse, France and although I repeatedly asked (in French) for my coffee to come WITH my dessert, it never did. I tried and tried...they smiled and said yes...but it never happened.
They didn't look down upon it, they just weren't used to it. It may be different in Paris since they are so used to American tourists.

I'm not sure this is a question of etiquette so much as just common custom. I've read frequently on this board that Americans tend to speed through their meals compared with most Europeans, who see dining out as an all night affair. So with this in mind, then it's not so strange to have coffee AFTER dessert - it does extend your dining experience.

But you are perfectly entitled to do as you wish. You won't offend anyone just because your practice differs slightly from theirs. And if you ask and they still don't bring your coffee with your dessert, then I wouldn't be in the least bit nervous about reminding them.

And as for coffee and cake in cafes, well cafes are clearly a more informal situation, and EVERYONE has coffee with their cake!

HI
The custom in France is to have the coffee served after dessert if you have had a meal. That doesn't mean that you can't request otherwise, and most places are very used to having Americans request this. I've done it, and seen it done, in a wide range of restaurants including some of the best.

This is quite separate from just stopping into a cafe or patisserie to have a pastry with coffee.

Hi Anna,

At a formal dinner in France you would have an hors d'ouvre, an entree, a fish or soup course, a main platter, a cheese plate, a fruit plate, a sweet dessert and then coffee.

See http://www.taillevent.com/english/restaurant/menu.html

The French don't eat like this every day.

Yeah, Seamus, but that's Amsterdam, not Gay Paree!

So let me get this straight, there are certain rules that people in Europe follow and they get mad when you are not aware of them?

I have no idea when they drink coffee, how would I know that? Is this really something to ponder or should I just go and not worry about it?

The more I read on this forum the more confused I become. Some of you say to be yourself and others write about problems like this. Are there that many rules to memorize?

peeky, don't worry about it. Just go and have fun. As long as you are polite and enjoying yourself everything will be fine.

The whole thing is academic.

I can understand - at a pinch - how Americans can drink that dishwater stuff you pass off as coffee with the pudding course.

But real coffee, as drunk by the French or the Italians, taken with most civilised puddings is a living excample of Mutually Assured Destruction.

It doesn't matter a row of Java beans what the paid help, or the people at the next table think or do: drinkable coffee ruins your ile flottante or your tiramisu. And limiting your pudding choices in Paris, Lyons or Bologna to Black Forest Gateau (or your coffee to milky decaf Maxwell House) is cultural vandalism.

There is always a reason Romans do as they do when they're in Rome. You've every right to do different, but you're probably being a darn fool.

> Is this really something to ponder or should I just go and not worry about it?

I'd say not to worry about such a trivial matter. Interesting to learn local customs but not worth to ponder. No body really gets mad if you don't know such local customs. Relax.

>I have no idea when they drink coffee.

I have a question. Do Americans drink coffee accompanying a meal (I mean, with stater or with main dish and not with dessert). I heard it could happen(or is this my ignorance ?).
I know American coffee is much weaker but, if so, it's something I have not seen people do in Europe. Of course, I don't say it never happens. And it's more like custom than etiquette (sometimes the border may be vague though).

Good LoveItaly, I'm trying to get some sort of schedule here.

You can see how confusing this is, now someone writes not only when to drink but what coffee to drink and with pudding and not with pudding. They eat that much pudding?

I know if I pay too much attention I will just *chuck the whole idea and go to Maui *not really.

Peeky, reread Scarlett's post. Honest dear one, don't fret about every little thing. For example, Italians "argue" about customs, what is what, when is when, so to speak.

And I can assure you that no doubt many American's in Italy want to eat bread with their pasta. To an Italian that is a "no, no". There is an old saying "to eat bread with the pasta insults the pasta". But if a person wants bread with their pasts, no problem.

Sometimes too much information is an overkill. You will be fine on your trip, not to worry.

I was lead to believe that in Paris you had your coffee after the meal and found that it was customary. That's the way I always did it but then..horror of horrors...they often put a small piece of chocolate on the saucer and ..oh god this is killing me to admit this....instead of nibbling on the chocolate, I melted it in my cafe noir!!!! It tasted really good and I was thinking how lovely of them to provide that!!! So, another reason I can't ever "do lunch" in that town again. Ya live, and ya learn. I also posted that my first time in London we sat at a table in a pub, waiting to be waited on. So, I'd never been to London, never been to a pub..so I was born knowing you have to order at the bar and they bring it to you? Just try and find out as much as you can about what is "accepted" practice and if you goof? Well I guess they'll just have to take you out and shoot you. Honestly, don't ruin your trip stressing so badly over this. Kappa..in some casual restaurants in the states it is very customary for the waitress to offer coffee right after you sit down and yes, some people drink it all through the meal. Just depends. You don't see it as much in a fine dinner house although if you request they will bring it to you and usually won't tar and feather you in the process.

Ok, point taken and I appreciate the little scolding.

Now the question in my mind is: In London, is it obligatory to keep your pinky up when you are drinking the coffee?

This will have to be a case where tastes differ. I have certainly enjoyed drinking strong Turkish coffee while eating a sweet confection, and many other combinations as well. I can't see how coffee would ruin a dessert, particularly if the dessert is chocolate-based or quite sweet.

And what about all the tourist (at least in Italy) that go into a cafe, go up to the bar and order their coffee and than go sit at a table not realizing it cost more to drink their coffee at a table instead standing up at the bar. Than they are "just sure" that they have been ripped off because they are tourist!

Peeky, when I have friends from Italy come here to visit I usually get several e-mails and telephone calls with the most anxious but mundane questions, even from those that have visited the US before. It is precious.

A good traveler wants to fit in. The old "when in Rome" saying.

But please know that IMHO every traveler fusses a bit about not knowing the local customs of the area they are traveling too.

Just look at it as part of the adventure!

Halllooo dahlings,
peeky, the pinkie goes up only when drinking tea. And NO slurping!
creflors, that sounds so good to me right now..that dark chocolate and rich coffee taste..mmmm~
LoveItaly, yes, the Italian waiters horror when witnessing an American sprinkling cheese on clam sauce :) is much more dramatic than the befuddlement of a Parisian waiter being asked to serve coffee WITH dessert. :D
I realized last night when talking to the Yankee about this, that the reason this never really came to mind (with me) was that we rarely drink coffee late at night , that we usually have wine with the meal and dessert.
PUDDING? Do the British not start calling it Dessert after a certain age?
Just curious~

I was joking about the pinky.

What kind of questions do they ask?

If you order standing up you can't sit down? See, some book should write all of these things down. I have only read these things here.

No cheese? How about Oysters Rockefeller?

Peeky, I was joking about the pinky.

There are probably some obscure books of how people do things in other countries, but the way to learn is not through a book but by going there and Doing! Then you will be in the know and will be able to pass on your knowledge :)
And you will also see that none of this is very important once you are actually there and experiencing it ~

I cringe if I see someone putting ketchup on some innocent French fries, but I don't expect anyone to take account of my deeply-held beliefs. I wouldn't worry about offending anyone with food choices, but would focus on worrying about greetings, degrees of formality, personal space differences, and so on.

Peeky...don't know if that was meant for me particularly but wasn't scolding darling...just hate to see you put yourself through all this and to be so worried about a possible little faux pas. Trust me...it's all good..we admire your concern with learning some of the customs and it's always good to know a few things and it shows care and consideration for the country you are visiting...but don't make yourself crazy..go and enjoy and if you make a flub I found a sincere "desole"...the sincere part is important...usually got me back in good graces. Just enjoy your trip. You know, those of us who have traveled to Europe, and even more those who can go often are so lucky..there are a lot of people who dream of it there whole lives and for what ever reason, it does not become a reality. I was so stoked my first trip..well my second trip too...but we landed in London, went to the hotel, checked in and then hit the pub...I was pinching myself, I was so excited, I just couldn't believe it!!!! My brother and I kept saying.."oh my gosh we are in LONDON!!! Can you beleive it?" So go, enjoy, you will have wonderful experiences, meet wonderful people and stop stressin' the small stuff.

WillTravel, I sure agree with all you just said.

Scarlett dear, we all know that the pinkie only goes up if one is drinking tea, not coffee. But you need to elaborate. Is slurpping drinking coffe acceptable? Please advise ASAP.

About cheese on seafood pasta dishes, or yeah, that one really gets the Italians rolling their eyes!!

And the frenchfry/ketchup thing. My Italian friends come here and either have mustard or mayonaisse with their french fries. That always gets a strange look from the waitress.

Now Peeky, (and I am talking Italy only, do not know about the other countries) when you order coffee this is the situation. You can go to the counter, order your coffee and drink it standing there. You see many Italian workers doing this on their way to work. In and out of the cafe in 2 seconds!

If you wish (as most travellers do as well as Italians that want to have a nice relaxing rest) you go sit at the table, inside or outside, your choice.
The waiter will take your order and bring the coffee to you. You can relax as long as you wish.

To use the table makes the cost of the coffee more expensive but IMHO it is sure worth it.

It is when tourist do not know this, order the coffee at the bar, get the coffee at the bar and than go sit down at the table confusion reigns. Well not confusion but the tourist as I said before is sure they have been cheated. Italian waiters are used to this of course.

Do keep in mind Peeky, Europe has hosted visitors forever. I doubt if anything would surprise them. Honest.