Nowhere 'safe' : London attack
 

Le Monde says 3 people died and 20 were injured when a man drove his car into the crowds and then attacked bystanders with a knife.
He got shot.
Paris, Brussels, Nice, London ... the list grows and grows.

Four dead, two on the bridge, a police officer stabbed by the attacker who was then shot dead.
Amongst the injured are three French teenagers on a school trip.
Several of the injured are very badly hurt.

Nowhere is safe, but that shouldn't deter people from visiting.

Nowhere is safe, but that shouldn't deter people from visiting.>

Yes and being safe- less likely to be involved in any terrorist attack anywhere than being run down crossing street or driving to and from your home airport. Everytime you drive on a street you are in more danger.

Not to trivialize the deaths in London - sad and those French high school kids seriously hurt on a trip to London from 'dangerous' Paris.

I don't think we should accept this kind of terrorism as the new normal or what's the big deal, which I think statements like that do (comparing it to traffic accidents, etc). I find those kind of remarks trivializing what is going on in the world by these terrorists.

These types of attacks were routine in London and Paris in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. Only our narcissism makes us believe we're in some uniquely dangerous period.

And before that many, many more including NYC, DC, Madrid, Istanbul, Mumbai, Berlin and on and on. It's been this way for quite a while now, don't you think? I agree it should not deter us from visiting. We'll be in UK in May with a week in London in June. We were in Paris within a week of the attacks in November. What a world...sad.

For the past 10 years, UK road deaths have been fairly consistent at 1700 per year.

That's 5 a day.

More than tonight's terror attack.

It's called terrorism for a reason .

It creates irrational terror.

I arrived in London the day of the bombings July 7, 2005. The advice we got from all the Londoners we met was to go on with our plans, that they had a long history of dealing with such attacks and they wouldn't let it alter any of their activities. They were far more accustomed to such events than we were.

Christina

Sorry, I hadn't read your post.

Not trying to trivialise the issue just to put the risk into perspective.

Having said that, I posted here previously that we wouldn't visit Israel because of security fears. I would love to go but it's hard not to be irrational when you are taking an 11 year old.

Thank you, Edward, for that.

People forget what the IRA did to London in the 70's.

Didn't see any nation banning Roman Catholics from bringing transistor radios or Ronson lighters on airplanes back then.

We are all governed by idiots.

Thin

Actually, travelling is very safe. The chances of getting hurt or killed in a terrorist attack are smaller than getting killed in a crash of the airplane that actually takes you to your destination.

It is a terrible, disgusting act of murder but we can never let that win. Ever.

Travel and see the world and never be afraid.

We are letting them win by talking about it.

I disagree, BritishCaicos. Staying silent about such acts implies we either approve, are afraid, or, worse, indifferent. I think letting our absolute disgust at the act be known is a much more effective deterrent than not speaking out.

One thing we should do, though, is to look at history. Attacks such as this are nothing new. Historically radical people have been carrying out horrible attacks for a long time now. I ran across a brief list of some of the more prominent ones recently, but there have been many, many, more over the years.
http://listverse.com/2014/05/04/10-a...ked-the-world/

We would let them win if we cancel plans to visit because of this and similar acts.

Agree with British Caicos and Michael that chances of getting killed or hurt are much higher driving to the airport than being hit a terrorist while in whatever city.

How can you possiby stop people from talking about it? And why would you want to? I don't interpret talking about it as letting them win.

And there are plenty of safe places in the world, but if your travel plans involve driving to an airport and taking a plane, or major city-hopping on trains, or visiting major tourist sites, there's always some risk there. Still, nothing like everyday risks of things like driving an automobile.

Catholic thing
Yep managed to get over most of that, eventually

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-C..._United_States

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-C...United_Kingdom

Given the IRA managed to blow up themselves with alarm clocks and gelly the fear of the radio would not have been sensible. Even Guy Fawkes and his gang (RC terrorists) managed to half kill themselves by trying to dry gunpowder in front of the fire. However, since then this whole internety thing has come about, what was once tricky technology is now easy to read up on the internet.

Three people, including a cop, were shot in Wisconsin yesterday.

This was an awful thing. But the fact of a single attacker (albeit capable of doing great damage with just a car and a knife) who, in all likelihood, knew how it would end for him, could itself be a sign that ISIS is on its way out: there may well be an upsurge of desperate individuals launching this sort of attack precisely because the parent organisation is being worn down by the loss of territory and income in the Middle East. Which is not to say there won't be another false prophet waiting in the wings, but it does mean we aren't facing all-out chaos.

Still, nothing like everyday risks of things like driving an automobile.>

Or crossing streets with wrong way traffic in London!

Would that you are correct, Patrick. The trouble is that there seems to be an almost endless supply of gullible fools willing to do the bidding of those who manipulate them. They tend to spawn copycats too, though why anyone would want a death like that is a mystery to me. Certainly their faceless bosses don't.

Having read about Tillerson's lack of nouse in matters diplomatic, and his inability to foresee the problems that are going to make Syria et al fertile recruiting grounds for ISIS and their ilk for many years to come unless money and sustained effort are put into creating stable countries, [like they weren't in Iraq] I am not optimistic.

Sparkchaser, a friend who lives in Wisconsin just texted me, worried about my upcoming visit to U.K....I don't think the irony was noted until I pointed it out.

The attacker was 52 ?
Not usual. He should not believe anymore in the cause or in the 99 virgins.

>>The trouble is that there seems to be an almost endless supply of gullible fools willing to do the bidding of those who manipulate them. They tend to spawn copycats too, though why anyone would want a death like that is a mystery to me. Certainly their faceless bosses don't. <<

I was reading an interesting piece pointing out that the stuff about endless virgins in heaven or whatever has a counterpoint in hell and damnation for a sinful life (not unheard of in other sorts of religious extremism, of course). If you're persuaded that there's a route to wiping out all your past crimes and misdemeanours (even if by a means that's criminal to anyone else), then you might well take it - plus it appeals to the perverted ambition for grandiosity that seems to rule certain sorts of criminal.

Wow, they are upping the rewards. I always thought it was 72 virgins that were the award for being a martyr. Now Wo says they are promising 99, and Patrick says the supply is endless. They must really behaving problems filling those positions!

Do not forget the attempted attack in Antwerp too.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/23/w...ar-attack.html

Without getting too political....

25,000 Americans die of gunshot wounds each year. About 67% of mass murderers in the US are white males, almost all have some sort of Christian affiliation.

The prevalence of this is never addressed but demonizing a small minority of another group is.

I was three blocks from the Trade Center on 9/11 and saw the second plane hit and my building was twice engulfed in debris and human remains. I vowed not to be cowed by politicians, demagogues, and terrorists and to think who is responsible and what can be done in a rational and useful way.

Patrick, my friend's seven year old was hit by a car last week crossing to their development from school. A fight her Mum had brought before the council two years ago in Derby. She was critical. The kids have no proper crossing. Sort of prophetic. Anyhow, I thought the man didn't fit the normal profile. Love how the mayor shut down 45's dumb arse son over his tweet. Please know most of us here don't support him.

Your data seemed high to me IMDonehere, so I checked online and you are even a bit low. The total for 2013 was around 33,000. I agree we do live in a violent nation but, to bring some perspective, the majority of those gun deaths were suicides with homicides being "only" some 11,000. Much too high, obviously, but I don't see the gun culture here changing anytime soon, do you?

Nukesafe-

First compare that number to other industrialized nations. It is stratospheric.

The numbers would be even higher for deaths from gunshots except for an ironic reason. ER docs and RN's are skilled from treating them experience starting from the Vietnam War all the way through Iraq and Afghanistan.

There's really no indication that what happened in Antwerp was anything else then a drunk criminal speeding. I thought that muslims didn't drink alcohol..

Nukesafe-

The NRA has ensured that America will retain its gun culture for at least the next 25 years. If the murder of children at schools did not change our culture, nothing will.

We were in London when the attack happened. We never felt unsafe. We felt safer in London than at home (Florida). Everyone was calm and went about their business. We went about our sightseeing. We had a lovely visit. We prayed for the victims and their families. Very tragic, but we kept on going. I plan to live my life to the fullest as long as I'm lucky enough to keep breathing.

I'm planning my fall Paris/London trip. I am not cavalier about any of it and I'm not booking Baghdad any time soon, but I can't just not do anything.

I'm so tired of those twerps, messing with people, killing people, screwing up their lives and to what purpose? The perpetrators usually aren't even around to "enjoy the fruits of their labor". I just want to say "what the hell is wrong with you?!!!!!)

I don't want the psycho babble, they are just miserable, disgusting excuses for being human. A beautiful day, people going about their business, work or play, and then wham, if you live through it your life is never the same, you get through it, you don't get over it.

"I thought that muslims didn't drink alcohol.."

Well I grew up with muslims and, well it depends, certainly about half my friends drink alcohol, what is interesting is how many radicalised muslims have a history of alcohol or drug abuse. But really most muslims would not see "radicalised" as muslims.

<i>Wow, they are upping the rewards. I always thought it was 72 virgins that were the award for being a martyr. Now Wo says they are promising 99, and Patrick says the supply is endless. </i>

According to a prominent scholar, they're going to get 72 white grapes instead of virgins.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/04/op...apes.html?_r=0

I always wondered what those poor virgins had done to merit that punishment.

I heard Irshad Manji talk about that with Fareed Zakaria. If it wasn't about something so awful, I would have laughed thinking about them when they get to where ever they think they are going.

<i>what is interesting is how many radicalised muslims have a history of alcohol or drug abuse.</i>

Petty criminals, history of violence, estranged from family, not religious, many are bodybuilders so are taking steroids which cause their own problems ...

... also applies to the converted like last week's murderer.

They become born-again / converted as a coping mechanism but becoming a Muslim puts them further from their families, prior Muslims aren't accepted by their families, so the only people they have as "friends" are people like them, thus creating a positive feedback loop leading ultimately to violence

watch this UK TV series.
http://www.watchfree.to/watch-2a973e...ml#close-modal
filmed before the London attack.Make one think about what is happening to the youths of today and the situation of minorities who find the situation even worse. Having to fight against the stigma that a few of the same faith bring to the table. Plus we now have politicians adding to the stigma.

This all makes me feel so... I am loathe to use the word as it has been hijacked by a nefarious troll... sad .... and angry and helpless. I feel such sympathy for those affected by such events, both the victims of terrorism and those unjustly blamed for someone else's actions. The current political climate doesn't help either. I guess the best we can do is to continue with our lives, to try to broaden our horizons by putting a face to people we have never met, thereby making human connections and perhaps opening each other's minds about people we don't know, religions we don't practice, circumstances we have never faced, and places we have never been. I think fear-mongering makes us weaker and I plan to continue to travel and meet more of the world's people.

As soon as the label "terrorism" is attached to a violent crime, people get much more scared than if it were just a random act of violence. The mass shooting in Norway, the school massacre in Scotland, the many similar crimes in the US, all horrify us, but don't really scare us. We think the perpetrator was a "nut case", and we don't think we know anyone who would do something like that. However, when we hear of a case of Islamic terrorism, we think, "Wow, there are lots of Muslims around.", and we feel that we're at risk.

Actually, we all probably know lots of nut cases; we just don't realize it.