Norther Spain first Iteniary
 

Hello all. Looking for some help and your thoughts on our proposed trip to Northern Spain in April /May 2018. Hopefully all by train/bus combo. We havve already seen a ttiny bit of Spain this year when we visited Barcelona, Madrid, Seville, Granada Cordoba.
We are slow travelllers and don't like to rush as we like to be on holidays and dislike packing and unpacking We like architecture, eating, and history with the odd Church (well I love them DH is a bit over them)and basically walking around a place.
We will arrive in San Sebastián from Paris on 26 April and will fly out to London on 30 May and spend maybe six days then return to Sydney. So that gives us a total of 34 days. In Spain.
My initial thoughts are
San Sebastián 7 nights with a day trip to Bilbao
Pamplona 4 nights ( no bullfighting)
Leon 6 nights ( day trip to Oviedo)
Salamanca 6 nights
Then ????
Fly to London from the nearest airport.possibly Salamanca or Madrid.
Nothing on the Spanish trip is booked as yet or set in stone. I would be really happy for any suggestions and your thoughts especially areas to read up on.
Thank you in advance.

Considering you have so much time, think about adding Santiago de Compostela and other places in the north, instead of going to Salamanca.

I visited all those places in 2015, but I think you are spending too long in all of them (and I am an advocate of slow travel). I would also recommend adding time in the French Basque country - although I would certainly not drop Salamanca.

I started the Basque part of my trip in Pau, but I had a lot of time, and I would suggest Bayonne or perhaps Biarritz.

Start here:
http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...omment-9383738

Or, with photos (links at the top of the page):
https://mytimetotravel.wordpress.com...ng-in-bayonne/

I would definitely include Burgos

I also recommend the Pays Basque, across the border from Spain. The small villages in the foothills of the Pyrenees are among the most beautiful in France( Ainhoa, Saré, Espellette, Ascain, etc.). And you can visit them easily from San Sebastian or move to St-Jean de Luz or Biarritz.

How lucky to have 34 days in Spain! My husband and I spent three weeks in northern Spain last year. If you click into my profile, you can read the report.

I second Aramis' suggestion to add Burgos. Good food, good wine, walkable. When we fly into Madrid and rent a car, Burgos is always our first overnight stop. I will also say that I enjoyed our one-night stay in Logroño. It was quiet when we were there, but the food was amazing! It was a much less stressful way of eating Pintxos than SS. (As an introvert, I find the crowded bar scene to be stressful. My husband has no such problems and I make him obtain the food! If there are foodies behind the bar, they recognize his love of food and he typically does really well, despite speaking no Spanish.) But I doubt it would be enough to sustain you for multiple days in Logrono, but maybe it could be a day trip from Pamplona?

I know you mentioned not having a car, but, man, the Cantabria and Asturia regions are stunning! Our trip up the mountain at the Fuente De parador was something I'll always remember. We only dipped our toes into Asturia, but I wished we'd planned for more. (Although, admittedly, that time of year might not be the best weather...)

I have not been to Salamanca, but did visit Toledo (you'll love the cathedral!), Avila (I'm not tempted to return), and Segovia (worth the visit for the aqueduct alone!) on a previous trip. Given the season, I might be tempted to head for warmer locals like these. (But coming from a cold place, I like heat on my vacations!)

Have fun planning!

Agree with : " too long " in each place ...
April/ May can be rainy in the north ....,
I would keep beautiful Salamanca on the list ( 2-3 nights).
(train from Salamanca to Madrid ..about 1/12 h.)

Should be a wonderful trip!

If you have any interest in prehistoric art, you might want to add a few days near northern Spain’s wonderful caves, perhaps Santillana del Mar or Santander.

My style of travel is quite different, but even so, you might find some useful information in my trip report:
http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...-catalunya.cfm

Salamanca is a gem – I agree with those who recommend retaining it in your plans.

I'd do 5 nights in San Sebastián and 2 in Bilbao.

Staying 4 nights in Pamplona is almost enough time to sample some of the best pintxos in the Basque country! (http://tinyurl.com/y967npgp)

I'd go with 4 nights in León and 2 in Oviedo. You'll be able to do a day trip into the El Bierzo wine region while in León. (http://tinyurl.com/nefk6vk)

I'd only allow 2 nights in Salamanca, the rest I would spend in Madrid and take a day trip to Toledo.

Thank you all. I did have Burgos in my head so will reinstate, and had Oviedo and Bilbao but thought it was too many short stays. Now to convince DH that a couple of short stays will be ok.

We visited Madrid for seven days last May and really loved the city, and the day trip to Toledo was fantastic. It was freezing in Madrid the first two days and then the rest of the month in Spain was warm weather.

kja I had already read your trip report (I have tried to read as many as I can) and while we all travel differently I gleaned some really good info.

We arrive in Paris on the 20th April as we will be going to Villers Bretonneux for ANZAC day (25April) and we are really excited about that part. We are expecting cool rainy weather for the first few weeks and that's ok as it won't stop us doing things.
Once again I really appreciate the input from you all. No doubt I will be back with more questions as the planning begins in earnest.

If you can convince DH to agree to a few short stays, I will wholeheartedly second Robert's recommendations for a few nights in Bilbao and Oviedo!

And I'm glad to know you found some good information in my report. :-)

Thanks kja. DH has agreed to two short stays so that's good. We will leave Salamanca as is and travel to Madrid the day before our flight to London. Yippee I get to go back to that gorgeous city.
This is an unexpected trip as we were in Paris, Spain and Italy from April to July this year and we were planning for 2019 but the chance came up to visit France for April 25 so we are taking it. Then I promise faithfully that we won't travel overseas for two years. Lol

:-)

Stay with your planned time in San Sebastián, but I also strongly suggest you add a couple of days in Bilbao, San Sebastián's wonderful and very different sister city. http://www.euskoguide.com/places-bas...ilbao-tourism/

There are also other fabulous small cities/villages here that you might take a look at, for example the old capital Tolosa just inland from San Sebastián or tiny Getaria with some out of this world fish and seafood restaurants, on the coast just west of San Sebastián:
Tolosa: http://www.euskoguide.com/places-bas...olosa-tourism/
Getaria: http://www.euskoguide.com/places-bas...taria-tourism/

And here's two short clips to wet your appetite for San Sebastián itself. Haven't been here in nearly two years and seriously start to feel the abstinence ;-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t50eHoBqu0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRWCdjw1C8Q

And a fun intro to the Basque food culture and going for the famous pintxos in San Sebastián: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwmBAvqa_0U

I just had a 34 day trip to Northern Spain in July.

Just started the trip report today - http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...-of-france.cfm

I posted a very detailed report and photos here: http://andiamo.zenfolio.com/blog

My trip did include a lot of one and two night stays which I normally don't really like but in this case it made sense. Driving (except in the major cities which we didn't do much of, most of that was by public transportation before we got the car) is really easy and a lot of places are great to spend the night (when the day trippers are gone) but don't really 'require' several days. So linking a few longer stays with some one and two nighters worked perfectly for this area.

San Sebastian was the highlight probably of the whole trip but I don't think you need 7 nights. I had 4 and did a day trip to Hondarribia which I highly recommend. I then spent 3 days in Bilbao but if you are trying to cut down on moving hotels then I'd add one more to San Sebastian (so 5 nights) and do Bilbao as a day trip.

I would definitely include both Burgos and Leon and they each warrant at least 2 nights.

From Pamplona you could do day trips to Laguardia, Puente La Reina, and Olite. Those would be easier if you had a car.

Another suggestion, especially if you don't have a car would be a few days in Santander, itself a nice city, but from there you could do a day trip to Santillana del Mar - or even better spend the a night as it's nicer in the morning and evening when the day trippers are gone. But maybe in May it wouldn't be crowded even mid day. Between the town itself and the Altamira Caves it's worthwhile.

As for trains check www.renfe.com for train info and then compare to buses - Bilboa may be best by bus from San Sebastian- others by train. For help with Spanish trains - www.seat61.com - great info on discounted tickets you can book yourself online; www.budgeteuropetravel.com and www.ricksteves.com. Buses go everywhere but trains are as always more comfy and buses usually longer and cheaper.
Euskotren is a sweet narrow-gauge inter urban type railway that goes thru many Basque towns - great way to go to Hendaye, France and Pays Basque talked about above. Better than mainline trains from RENFe station often because those are so few compared to frequent Eusko Trains and a much nicer ride as the tiny train trundles right thru Basque towns, practically touching houses or so it seems.

Wow thanks for the great information. I will make myself a coffee and sit and read your trip repot isabel. Has to be coffee as it is to early for wine.(7.30 am here) lol.
PalenQ thanks for the tip on Euskotren. seat61 has always been my first go to page.

Many thanks to you all as I really appreciate the time and effort you have put into the replies.

I know I'm an outlier, but FWIW, San Sebastian is my LEAST favorite location in Spain, and that includes all the places covered in the aforementioned trip report for my time in northern Spain and Catalunya and the places I've visited in central and southern Spain. I found things to enjoy there, but was ready to leave after 2 days (3 nights). And while Hondarribia is often praised, I wouldn't have taken the time to visit it if I had the advantage of hindsight. I thought it nice enough, but I was not enamored. Obviously, many Fodorites have very different reactions, and vive la difference!

kja I must admit SS wasn't high on my list either and I will cut it down to 5 days. I just thought that as the week in Paris will be on the go the whole time SS would be a nice place to relax a bit. My brothers, sisters and friends are encouraging us to go there as they think we will love it. I will give this some more thought.

Donostia is relaxing if you want to sit on the beach -otherwise a fairly smaller nice city but with relatively little to do.

San Sebastián is a very special place, the culinary capital of Spain, one of the most beautiful cities in the country, great landscapes and three of the finest city beaches on the continent. And April/May is a perfect time of year to go, spring is here and the many summer vistors are still some weeks away. http://www.euskoguide.com/places-bas...stian-tourism/

And kja likes San Sebastián quite much, at least if we should take her own words seriously. After her brief encounter with San Sebastián she wrote about "wonderful breakfast pintxos", "the spectacular El Peine de los Vientos", "stunning views", "wonderful meal", "absolutely delicious lunch", "the excellent Museo San Telmo", "interesting people" and "spectacular scenery".

Apart from all that, here are some suggestions for things to do in and around San Sebastián, five or seven days would fly.

- The famous pintxos crawl in the Parte vieja/Old town is a must: http://www.euskoguide.com/food-drink...ntxos-pinchos/
http://todopintxos.com/home/home.php

- Feel the air of history and sample fantastic food in Calle 31 de Agosto: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...e-streets.html

- Go to the Reyes Católicos area behind the cathedral for great music bars, no fuss restaurants, as Casa Valles, and grown up nightlife. https://www.sansebastianturismo.com/...tian/nightlife

- Many of both the most cutting edge and classical pintxos bars are in the residential Gros district, just across the city river Urumea: https://tourism.euskadi.eus/en/bar-t...aa30-12375/en/

- I love the very local atmosphere Antiguo district, Calle Mátia is great, and several fine and no fuss pintxos bars and restaurants here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Se...C3%A1n#Antiguo

- Museo de San Telmo dedicated to Basque society and culture: https://www.santelmomuseoa.eus/index.php?lang=en

- The Aiete Palace with the park and the dictatorship history, Franco's old summer resident and government seat: https://tourism.euskadi.eus/en/cultu...aa30-12375/en/

- Perhaps take a walk along the coast to tiny and beautiful Donibane with great seafront restaurants: https://www.spain-holiday.com/San-Se...resque-pasajes

- The Cristina Enea park is the largest in town: http://www.donostiasansebastian.com/cristina_enea.html

- Climb the three small hills, Igueldo, Urgull and Ulía. Fabulous views, perfect for a picnic and also cafés close to the top in Igueldo and Ulía: https://www.lonelyplanet.com/spain/s.../448319/360741

- Perhaps a lunch in beautiful Tolosa, the old capital, just inland from San Sebastián, especially known for the excellent Saturday market: http://www.euskoguide.com/places-bas...olosa-tourism/

- In Tolosa you also get what is arguably the best steaks in the world (Casa Julián and Casa Nicolás are the most famous): https://www.forbes.com/sites/larryol.../#25fdd4056a21

- Get a table in Urola, my favourite restaurant in San Sebastián since the late 80's, voted best restaurant in the region in 2015 by the major local newspaper El Diario Vasco, ahead of all the Michelin star restaurants, and much more affordable: http://www.casaurolajatetxea.es/en/portada/

And finally, three fantastic restaurants that are outside the radar of most vistors:
Ibai: https://www.andyhayler.com/restaurant/ibai
Agorregi: http://agorregi.com/
Xarma: http://xarmajatetxea.com/

...and the nine Michelin star restaurants (recommend three star Akelarre for lunch (outstanding views) and three star Arzak for dinner): https://www.sansebastianturismo.com/...michelin-stars

... could go on and on ;-)

SS is lovely ...but three SUNNY days was enough for us.
Northern Spain is called
"green " for a reason....it rains a lot!

Between the food, the Belle Epoque architecture, the language, the beach, and the water way that runs from the Bay into town, San Sebastián/Donostia is a most charming and attractive town.

It is on our list of places in Spain to which to return.

I'm with the nay-sayers on Donostia/SS. Admittedly the weather wasn't great when I was there, but the place was absolutely slammed with visitors, and it's not my kind of coastline. I like rocks and breakers, not sand, so I much preferred Biarritz. There is good food all over the Basque country - both France and Spain - you don't have to go to SS for it. Plus, while I love a leisurely, multi-course meal in quiet surroundings, I really don't care for eating standing up in noisy, packed, tapas bars. Nor do I travel mainly for the food.

kimhe never passes up an opportunity to write long posts pushing SS, so take the input with a grain of salt.

<kimhe never passes up an opportunity to write long posts pushing SS>

I push quite many places in Spain based on having lived here and some fifty short and long stays the past thirty years, and when it comes to San Sebastián, I'm not exactly alone.
https://www.lonelyplanet.com/spain/a.../san-sebastian
https://aboutbasquecountry.eus/en/20...mic-societies/
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/07/tr...tin-spain.html
https://www.afar.com/travel-guides/s...ebastian/guide

And here's a fine video intro to San Sebastián, European Capital of Culture 2016: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRWCdjw1C8Q

kimhe never passes up an opportunity to write long posts pushing SS, so take the input with a grain of salt.>

each has their own subjective reasons for liking or not liking a place and kimhe's input, for reasonshe/she gives above, I take with many grains of salt - you can disagree but no reason to insult others who may think differently.

Several folks above including one who said SS was the highlight of their trip would agree that SS can be nice to many, including me who has been there four times, though for me a few days was enough always.

@PQ - A statement of fact is not an insult. Besides, you seem to agree with me.

PalenQ

Oh my god, this forum is meant to give advice to people based on experience of, insight into and enthusiasm for different places. Posting here is hopefully first and foremost an enjoyable respite for all the regular contributors that can give some solid input, ideas and inspirations to people thinking about going to Spain. It works bad as a quarreling ground.

And oh my god is meant as a deep sigh and not as an insult.

PQ - A statement of fact is not an insult. Besides, you seem to agree with me.>

kimhe never passes up an opportunity to write long posts pushing SS, so take the input with a grain of salt.>

I do NOT agree with the above statement at all. Folks post what they really feel, I feel, and that it disagrees with your take so what?

Maybe I wrote it wrong - when I said <I take it with many grains of salt> I meant I put a lot of value into what he/she says and not a little as it may have been interpretted, based on his/her vast experience with SS and Spain and many previous posts.

Just as I respect your takes on things because of your vast travel experience in Europe.

enough said just to clarify what I actually said or meant to say.

PalenQ I am happy to take all advice whether it is positive or negative. I accept that everyone has their favourite places in the world ( mine is Rome) and that what is my favourite isn't yours.

I think it is great that you all take the time to respond. I do a list of the positive and the negative as I don't want to arrive in a place and say 'nobody mentioned the ....' and then I research and read a bit more and then decide.

I am now off to work to pay for the trip!!!!

Thanks

cheska - I agree with you that it's important to have both the positives and the negatives about a place. I always try to do that in my trip reports and have often gotten a good deal of 'negative' comments about my 'negative' impressions. The vast majority of what I write about all the places I've gone have been positive (I love Europe, pretty much all of it) but it seems the majority of the comments are about the few negative comments I've said. It's like people only want to read how great everyplace is. But I do think it's important to know of things that might not be so great.

I also think people are influenced by numerous factors - the weather being a big one.

And further - just because someone says a place was not their favorite doesn't mean they didn't like it - just that they liked other places MORE.

Kimhe has never said a harsh thing about another poster and yes he does have his preferences, but there is one thing him-he is in in the top 1,2,3 on this board who knows Spain.

I am cannot stand the people who have made one trip, maybe two and make a career of those trips. The problem is a new poster does not know who are the ones with deep experience and those with one anal retentive trip report.

As someone who loves Spain and has been there many times, I rather see the knowledge backed by passion, then those who know a fraction of what he does.

All you have to do to see who has only made one trip is to look at posters' profiles. Visiting places multiple times does not necessarily change one's opinion of them. I have been to Bangkok more times than I care to count and I still don't care for it. I revisited Madrid recently in the hope it would change my initial opinion, and it did not.

kimhe may or may not have made harsh statements, so many of his posts are so long I don't read all the way through, but he is certainly unwilling to accept that San Sebastian is not everyone's favorite place.

I do not read every word of kimhe's postings either, but the time and effort he extends to this board is laudatory.

But I do not read 99% of trip reports either, as most read like an anal accountant's expense report.

Oddly enough my wife had not visited Madrid in many years and our trip last October changed her mind. Now a friend is moving to Madrid, and we will spend at least two weeks there next Spring on an unexpected trip. We look forward to it and we do not even know which neighborhood she will choose.

I post less and less here, not because of the bickering but because of the "Mommy, monny, look at me," attitude of many of the posters. And I refuse to engage in such competition.

BTW, how would someone know by going to my profile how many times I have visited Spain, how much time I have spent there, and whether I possess special knowledge of any region, cuisine, or activity?

And why should the burden be on a new poster to sift through the debris of others?

"As someone who loves Spain and has been there many times, I rather see the knowledge backed by passion, then those who know a fraction of what he does."

Me too.
I don't agree with his enthusiasm for certain restaurants in Madrid
which is o.k.
Liking or not liking a place might depended on the number of times one visits .
Or not.

Last year- after nine visits - I walked to Manzanares ( yes, Madrid has a river)..and crossed Puente de Toledo.
Beautiful. Who knew.

Wow -- this thread took some unexpected turns!

@ cheska: I appreciate your willingness to consider all the input you get, weigh it in light of what matters to you, and make your own decisions. I’m sure your trip will be wonderful and memorable!


Like isabel, I appreciate hearing input from ALL sides before making a decision. And as she notes (and as kimhe references, by quoting my words), saying that a place was not a favorite is quite different than saying it wasn’t enjoyed.

I respect kimhe for his passion and his expertise and willingness to share both with Fodorites, and I think we are incredibly fortunate to have his voice – even if I sometimes disagree with him. ;-) Thank you, kimhe! But I must take issue with IMDonehere – while kimhe is normally very noncritical in his responses and while I would like to think that he and I resolved our argument, it is not correct to say that he has never said a harsh thing about another poster.

Personally, I appreciate hearing from ANY Fodorite who chooses to comment on a proposed itinerary or on questions about places, whether expert or novice. People DO have different reactions to places, and thank goodness for that! Wouldn’t it be awful if we all had the same opinions? Or only heard from people who liked a place well enough to return time and time and time again? In fact, I believe that IMDoneHere has travelled extensively in Spain, and would welcome hearing more of his experience, even if he isn’t an expert.

I am not an expert on San Sebastian / Donostia or anywhere else, nor do I claim to be – but I believe that my opinion is valid, and I would also say that IMO, every other poster here, whether they have visited a place once or 500 times, has the right to express his/her opinion. As thursdaysd said, number of visits is irrelevant to OPINION. Maybe I would change my opinion about San Sebastian (or any other place) if I revisit it – but why would I do that given my initial reaction? I believe that OPs are able to make their own decisions, and are better positioned to do so if they receive honest input from all of us who choose to respond.


@ cheska: I sincerely hope that you find some value in these discussiions!

I'm am rely enjoying everybody's responses. When we first started travelling in 2009 after children and mortgage etc we went to a so called expert travel agent and was horrified at the advice we received. The inteiary was so awful with a day in each place and 'you must do this or that' and we came away saying 'did he listen to what we were asking for' and have avoided so called travel experts since. I didn't know about travel forums then.

I believe that if you ask for opinions on a travel forum you will get a variety of answers from normal people who travel. That's what we want. People may travel differently and that doesn't make it right or wrong. Just different. Most importantly I find that these normal people will tell of their experience with good intentions. I am relatively new to this whole forum thing and as I love to read about others experiences for future reference I am getting a lot of value from the discussion.

@ cheska15: What a great attitude! My guess is that ALL of your travels will be better because of your open and accepting approach. :-) I can only thank that original travel agent for prompting you to plan you travels independently. ;-)

San Sebastián 7 nights with a day trip to Bilbao

Bilbao deserves at least two nights, and I do believe that 7 nights in SS is too much. This is a rainy area and if weather is not that good, you may find with little to do in this beautiful city but with not many activities...In the middle between both cities, Getaria, Zumaia, Bermeo, Mundaka, San Juan de Gaztelugatxe, Plentzia...all a must with so much time to travel around the area. Near Bilbao, the Puente Colgante, funicular for the best views, Getxo, the best Rolls Royce museum in the world in a castle, also the castle of Butrón...

Pamplona 4 nights ( no bullfighting). Also, too much time, unless you go on the countryside and visit the Pyrenees area or go south and visit Olite and Javier. Pamplona has one or two days, maximum.

Leon 6 nights ( day trip to Oviedo) Same as with Pamplona. You have Santander on the way (prehistoric caves nearby, and I´m not referring to the replica of Altamira), Llanes, PIcos de Europa area with Potes as the main town there...

Salamanca 6 nights, maybe also too much time. With a car, you may visit Cáceres, Plasencia, La Alberca, Guadalupe...

Hope it helps!!