WOW! I'm amazed I provoked all this. Let me say first off that I harbor no ill feelings toward Californians. I love the state and am looking forward to visiting my daughter there in mid-February. I DO think you Californians are a nation unto yourselves, though. All organic and pure and so on....hand me the carrot juice and I have a 2 pm with my personal trainer...y'know?

I am a former smoker. I'm not one of those reformed smokers who gets all high and mighty about it, though. To me it's a meh, who cares issue. And as I already said, I absolutely do appreciate the allergy issue, though I do think it is probably a US phenomenon that diagnoses people as having such an allergy. Same with the second-hand smoke issue. I'd be more worried about running over a squirrel.

As I stated before, it's obvious to me that French people have taken the new laws seriously and yes, the smoking issue is kind of moot now.

I don't really care where you come down on the issue of smoking - be all Californian or pure or whatever, but let's revisit the original poster's language: "I can hardly imagine that all the heavily addicted smokers are minding the new law, but hopefully it's a step in the right direction." Excuse me, but fill in the blanks with references to obesity for example, which to me is just as bad as smoking but would never be legislated. And to assume that you're going to end up on your vacation in a spot with "heavily addicted smokers"....oh come on...

StCirq,
I assume you never saw the Seinfeld episode when Kramer spent a weekend having "displaced" smokers in his apartment. See what happened to him!!! Holy Cow!

Paul

Okay, Cirq - I am the original poster, and yes, I did say it would be a bit of a surprise to see all the "heavily addicted" smokers adhering to the new policy.

I, like you, am a former smoker, having quit about 20 years ago, after having smoked for at least that long. I was very heavily addicted to nicotine; quitting was a horrible experience, one I hope never to repeat on any level.

And ... after the ban on smoking took effect here in California there were many who did not follow the new law for a period of time. (Even now IN CALIFORNIA (horrors!), there are still a few places left where outlaw smokers continue to light up.

And, apparently, in reality it appears from other posters' comments that many smokers are still able to smoke in "outdoor" areas, some thinly veiled contained parts of Paris restaurants.

And to equate obesity, which has no direct effect on anyone else, to second-hand smoke is ridiculous.

So ... all I did was ask a simple question. Sorry if I somehow offended your sensibilities by indicating that many smokers are addicted ... I suppose you will post again soon to argue that point as well.

Do the french still smoke after sex ?







Or do they do it slower now ?

One last post, mainly to apologize to those who were offended as that was not my intention. There seems to be a lot of hurt feelings here and that never feels good.

I happen to have a heavily coughing flu at the moment as does my daughter, so perhaps my daughter's constant hacking just added to my venting my frustrations about all the smoking in Europe. That said, I have never complained to anyone in Europe about all the smoking, knowing that this is just the way it is.

It is not just bars or restaurants, there is really no where to hide from the smoke.

St Cirq, you last post helped me see even clearer how this is really all about perspective. I understand now how " heavily addicted smokers" was charged for you and yet I did not even notice that. "Incessant" seemed excessive to you and perhaps others and yet seemed very accurate to me and others. It is all in the eye of the beholder.

I guess my perspective ( as yet another heavily addicted smoker many, many years ago) is that almost all smokers no longer smoke by choice, but it is the addiction that makes them "have" to smoke another fag. Most could not stop if you paid them. I have read that it is as hard to kick cigarettes as it is to kick a heroin habit. It certainly felt that way to me.

Also if others like you do not necessarily believe all the data on second hand smoke or sensitivities, that helps explain a lot of things on different perspectives.

I absolutely believe all the studies that show ANY second hand smoke is dangerous and there is great improvement when that is changed. I don't need to be right next to the person to be bothered by the smoke.

Our perception of smoking in Paris or anywhere in Europe will be quite different even though we are looking at the same things.

I have a little different perspective than many because we have spent many months all over Europe. I have a child and it is not 2 weeks of exposure but 17 months.

YES, of course I am affected by the fact that I come from an area where my daughter had absolutely NO exposure to smoke what so ever for the first five years of her life.


My daughter does get MUCH less exposure than any of her friends here, because we are very diligent, but it is impossible to avoid it all. Sadly she has had so much more exposure than she ever would had we stayed home.

Yes that does weigh on me, how could it not? All lives have trade offs, but since young kids and their developing lungs are very affected by second hand smoke, I pray that I am making the right choice. We really did not know it was this bad until we got here.

It is not so easy for us to just fly home. We went thru a lot of trouble selling our home and almost all of our possessions, buying RV and getting long stay visas etc. I do hope that the good of our extensive travels and quality time together out weighs the bad of second hand smoke, but there will be no way to know for sure.

My child also went from an area where nobody smokes and everyone thinks it is stupid and harmful to Europe where it seems to be universally accepted as "nothing wrong with it". Little ones are in smoky places and see all the adults smoking, so the next generation is primed for the tobacco companies and their lures. Not something I would choose for her.

Many, probably most of the parents and teachers smoke. No one cares that smoke drifts to the babies stroller as the mom waits gabbing to her friend as she puffs away.

I can not even let my child go visit her friend in the village house next to ours because her mom smokes. We just invite her and most of her friends here where we know there will be no second hand smoke.


We love our village and our friends here ( the smokers too of course) and might consider buying a second home here later, except for the smoke. We just do not see the smoking as the best of Europe.

Much is different than home which we expected it to be and we have enjoyed our 17 months here and made lots of friends, seen lots of great things.

I just do not see the smoking as a positive, but the one point that is most negative, especially for my child and the children here.

I am baffled by some of the comments, but think it it must be a perspective thing. Sorry to those offended, there was no offense intended.

Several things:

There are NO studies that show that 2nd hand smoke has any negative consequences on tourists exposed for a few days here and there. It is bothersome, as others have said, you are not FORCED to go where you are uncomfortable.

Obesity is a valid equation. Many of the posters are bothered by smoke. Obese people can be seen as bothersome--they take up more room, 2 seats, possibly walk much slower, some would say are grotesque to look at, etc. That is bothersome. But the real issue is that I pay with my taxes for medical care of the of those who develop diabetes, heart problems, etc, due to obesity/poor eating habits/sedentary lifestyles. As StCirq said, no one is legislating that. Arguments are made that smokers are costing a fortune in health care, thus smoking is to be legislated. The two are similar.

Europeans do not know the dangers of smoking? That is ridiculous. The EU mandated large, bold warnings on cigarette packaging stating that "smoking kills," "see your doctor/pharmacist to quit smoking," "smoking can cause cancer," and in the UK, skull and crossbones and pictures of ruined body parts. This was far before similar warnings in very tiny print were mandated on US cigarette packaging.

WTnow: You sound like you really are not enjoying living outside of your comfort bubble of life in the good old US where California dreaming is alive and well and healthy thanks to your good governor, who, btw, smokes cigars. (Yes, I am aware the California ban went into effect prior to his election)

The question at hand was "I am curious - is the new ban being enforced?" The question was answered. Yes, people are adhering. At 10pm on January 1 when I was in Paris, the ashtrays were taken from the tables at a cafe, though people continued to smoke that evening sans ashtrays. They did not indoors after. Please though, don't complain when you see people smoking outside. You cannot have it both ways unless you propose outlawing cigarettes. People smoke outdoors in California and other US areas where smoking indoors has been banned too.

Smoking bans are not a European issue. The US is NOT completely smoke-free, let's stop pretending it is.

For what it is worth, I would rather cigarettes be banned outright. One could still ring the dealer and have them delivered to one's door or buy on the black market, but consistency would reign. You cannot ban cigarette usage in public spaces for "health reasons" and keep it legal. I'd rather have it a straight up issue of smoking kills. Smoking causes health problems that taxpayers supposedly have to pay for. Smoking should not be legal. Though if that were to happen, I would expect to fully have my body legislated:

Prohibition--drunk drivers cause accidents, liquor causes liver problems, alcoholism. Processed foods, trans-fats, deep fried foods, fast foods all contribute to heart failure and diabetes. Cars cause accidents, death and contribute to pollution. And so on.

To reiterate the initial question: Yes, the French are indeed adhering to the new ban on indoor smoking.

Did all of you people drink contaminated water or something?

Sorry, one more because this is just too ironic!

The one person who protested the MOST about her right to smoke despite what it might do to anyone else (& even suggested those that do not like smoke should stay home)..... has MS and smoking is a risk factor for MS and makes the disease progress more rapidly!!

Wow.

I am sorry, but I will never understand how people can fight for a weakness that is hurting them and harming others around them.

You are probably not interested Cherrybomb, but just incase, I will leave this for you.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...m_uid=14581703

I wish you well, no matter!

Oh. I'm not well versed in the effects of MS. Does it also affect the brain so one can't tell the difference between seeing an obese person and breathing harmful smoke? If so, that explains it.

So a "few days" of tourist smoke in Paris won't harm you (so far as any studies show). But then add in the week of smoke in Rome, another week of smoke in Prague, several weeks of tourist smoke in . . .wherever. Some of us spend up to half the year traveling. Why should Paris be OK for breathing smoke but nowhere else? What a strange sort of logic.

I think it is hysterically funny that the same person talking about the unhealthy food is saying this. I can also assure you that there are no studies that prove eating a couple BIG MACs and a couple giant orders of fries will harm you. So you're saying that's a good thing?

"Some of us spend up to half the year traveling. "


So, the whole world should adjust to the way we live in North America?

Is it acceptable to say that "Europe is so far behind" when still so many US states are not further ahead? Are Californians also lecturing their fellow Americans from Virginia? Just curious...

WT seems to be unable to see major differences in smoking habits in "Europe", e.g. between Greece or Sweden.

FYI: Europe is more than a little village near Paris, or more than Paris, or France.
And the US is a bit more than the county you come from.

Unfortunately, many of the Fodorites get their knowledge on "Europe" from what they see on their trek from London via Paris and Venice to Rome. This is not "Europe". These places are still in the UK, France, and Italy, respectively. And we do not share one uniform "pan-European" behaviour. (By the way, "pan-" still does not equal "anti-" but "-wide", as in Europe-wide)

If you want to do your kid a favor, consider Scandinavia as your next destination. You would be amazed how "non smoking"-friendly that part of Europe is. And that substantially fewer people smoke, even in the streets. Think of it as an "almost" perfect California. They even copied some pristine landscape up there.

One last thing: With all the sources available, and with at least some common sense, how can ANYONE who comes from a smoke-free in community in California expect it to be even remotely similar in France or Greece, while it's already completely different in Nevada?

It's like some French chain smoker traveling to California, and whining that he does not find a restaurant where he can smoke? What would you tell such a person?

I am actually using obesity as an argument--I do not find obese people offensive, though there are people who do. There is a similar argument that can be made in terms of health costs from both damage caused by smoking and obesity related problems such as diabetes.

I never said that I should be allowed to smoke in Paris or anywhere else, I was merely stating that The US is not entirely smoke- free. In fact I stated that support outright baning the sale of cigarettes. I do however make no bones about my choice to smoke and do so where is it legal and allowed.

To post an webpage of articles stating that smoking causes MS (as you clearly clicked on my name and saw that I have revealed that I have it) is really really f**ked up. So you are stating that I caused my own condition. Really? Alrighty then.

For the record, my MS is mild and stable, I was diagnosed in 1999 with what is easiest defined as MS. This was right after they blanket sprayed the city with pesticides as West Nile Virus was causing mass hysteria. There was no warning, no one told to shut their windows.

MS is literally sclerosis or lesions of the brain, and/or spine. I have no lesions, never have had lesions and my diagnosis is based on other factors--the receptors in my legs are off. My neurologist, who is top in his field in the US, stated the are a few cases of people like myself. Since it is unknown what it really is, it does have a neurological component and for insurance purposes is best defined as MS, that is what we call it. It allows me to get my IVIG treatment every 3-4 weeks. I do not take any of the standard MS drugs--only an immune system boost--the IVIG.

I find it shocking that someone would sink to the level of making a personal attack about a medical condition that another poster has in the travel forum of all places. In the lounge, sure, but here? I guess you win.

NeoPatrick, you might want to watch what you say, lest someone start posting about what caused your partner's condition, not that I would sink to that level, but clearly there are people here who would.

WTnow, shame on you. Really. Shame. On. You. for posting something so inflammatory, rude and beside the point of the initial question at hand.

WTnow: one more thing, why don't you take a look at this when discussing what "causes" MS.

It is actually what I have followed for the since 1999. It speaks of food and environmental factors and the body's autoimmune response. You mght learn something:

http://www.direct-ms.org/bestbet.html

This study shows that second hand smoke poisons with deadly cancer causing chemical in HOURS!!

http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2007/...ml#skip300x250

This one shows a "small amount" does deadly harm to innocent by standers:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/story/2003/09...ke_030903.html

So much for the "few days" no harm theories.

Come on smokers, do a little reading and get out of denial. Lets not pretend smoking is a good thing for anyone. There is a reason these laws keep spreading.

My sweet Spanish neighbor can not talk, because they cut out his voicebox due to cancer from smoking. I see his sad face daily.

http://www.mededu.miami.edu/Tobacco/mouthspeaks

To the editors: I would suggest closing this thread or moving it to the lounge as it does not relate to travel and is a debate over smoking.

WTnow, if you are in Spain, leave the computer, go out and see and experience what you made sacrifices to do. I am leaving the computer at this point as well. I have life to experience and the day is getting late.

"Some of us spend up to half the year traveling. "

So, the whole world should adjust to the way we live in North America?
>>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>&gt ;

HUH? I believe most Europeans have far more vacation time and travel as much or more than most North Americans. I happen to be retired, but sure didn't mean to imply that half the year traveling had anything to do with a typical American lifestyle!

The last place where I suffered from excess smoke was the United States. I visited my home state of Mississippi.

Do Californians (just mentioned as an example) completely disregard the rest of their own country before criticizing other countries?

"Europe is so far behind"

This is not meant as a personal insult, but it is a fact in my mind. This is just based on the fact that many more Europeans smoke than Americans. Studies show that Americans are more aware about the harm of smoking.

I realize that different areas will vary and I have been to Scandanavia, most of Europe, much of the former Soviet Union, Turkey, Morocco, Egypt, Israel, Africa, South America, many Caribbean Islands including Haiti, much of Mexico, Canada and almost every state in the United States.

So I have done a fair amount of traveling even before we started this slow world tour. I also lived in Italy for a year many years ago, so have some experience of living in Europe.

We still have much more traveling to do here in Europe ( Scandanavia will be one of the choices this summer!) before we head over to Africa for an extended stay and then to South America for an extended stay before a rest and onto SEA, Oz & NZ etc. I am sure Europe will not be the only place where I worry about second hand smoke.

In both the U.S and Europe, people with more money and education tend to smoke less and the poorest smoke the most. Studies seem to show that the main difference is that Europeans are generally less likely to think that cigarette smoking is harmful.
http://www.nber.org/papers/w12124

I think that is an educational matter and Europe ( based on how many smoke in all of Europe compared to how many smoke in all of the U.S. percentage wise) is just behind on this one. California in many ways is ahead...where there are beaches, parks and whole cities that are smoke free.

Europe as a whole, is ahead in many ways like mass transit, but smoking is not one of them imho.

I did not expect it to be exactly like home and I knew smoking would be a concern. I thought I would be able to control it more than I can,

I don't like the diesel fumes when I walk her to school in the morning or on ferries etc either, nor did I like the fact that Grand taxis that took us to the Sahara had no seat belts! There are risks with travel, a mother ( & former nurse) just worries and makes the best choices that she can. I am an older mother so perhaps I weigh it all more diligently than some.

I haven't read the 100+ responses on this topic, but we were in London, Rome, and Paris 12/26- 1/11, and Paris in particular 1/5- 1/11 and all of the smokers happily sat in the outdoor seating areas puffing away in the frigid air.

Those of us who don't smoke were cozy inside, enjoying a smoke-free French meal.

Smoking in public is just about the only area of unacceptable behaviour that people still try to claim they should have an unfettered 'right' to do. We accept that we don't have the right to drink and drive because it has the potential to harm others, so why do some of still think we should be able to expose everyone around us to toxins whenever we feel like it? And that anyone objecting is 'nannying' or 'selfish'. If I object to being run over by your car or punched in the face by you, is that infringing on your 'rights' too?