Is that 'torch-wielding' according the American version of 'torch' or the English version? It could make quite a difference to the terror inspired....

Dear SeaUrchin,

I know you're not a troll but I'm surprised you asked this question. Surely you know that Santa Monica is NOT the South of France or Positano. Everyone in fashion knows that L.A. has their own fashion identity and most designers don't consider it chic. Comfortable, yes, but not chic. L.A. is one big country, after all.

Casual, athletic "suits" always look silly too me. They scream "OUTFIT" and if worn anywhere outside of the confines of an athletic facility, they look out-of-place, uninspired, sometimes tacky, very L.A. (or, worse, Florida), and basically say to others you haven't a creative bone in your body.

Since your destinations will feature many chic tourists, why not shine and sparkle among them with your fit figure? I suggest you resist the temptation to pack your Polos and come up with another plan. Think classic, maybe with cotton or linen. I've never understood putting nylon and the sun together.

I would guess that M-K is gay. He reminds me of Quentin Crisp (like someone else on here that shall remain nameless). I guess he lives in a hovel much like Quentin who stated that dust doesnt get any worse after 3 (or 4?) years.
I think he/she/it is trying to parody an eccentric Englishman/woman. It doesn't work in my book. Too overdone, M-K, old fruit.
'Dear'? the only people who say that in England are over 80 years old.

My wife is a runner and has run marathons. It would never cross her mind to run in a jogging suit.

While she seems to own a "bazillion" running shoes, she doesn't own a single jogging suit.

When packing for Europe, I think "New York" more than So Cal for guidance. Europeans still dress more formally than we do, especially in the cities. Though I was surprised to see women in Rome wearing so much linen last summer -- probably due, in part, to the record heat.

M-K: Are you a Countess Esterhazy wannabe, my dear?

Re: fashion trends.

I love to be fashion forward, but I do have to be careful now that I'm approaching (or maybe in) that "mutton dressed as lamb" age.

A few weeks ago, I found a very stylin' FUBU jacket in a store. Kind of a jeans jacket, but asymmetrical. I was about to buy it when I spied the little label on the pocket (on a jeans jacket, this would be the little label that says "Levis" or whatever).

It said "Fatty Girl". I guess this is a sub-brand of FUBU and is an urban compliment, but there is no way I am going to walk around with anything saying "Fatty Girl" on my body.

Well, after checking out my mutton vs. lamb quotent in a three way mirror, I'm back.
To jump off the subject a bit, isn't that phrase a bit of ageism? As I grow older I don't want to think of myself as just tough old mutton. I know you mean not dressing too young with low slung pants, etc. but it always strikes me as putting a woman down. What are your thoughts on this?

There are alot of mutton aged women who I would like to look like such as Goldie Hawn or Madonna (I see her often wearing jogging suits BTW, but I know it is in LA).

So....I am taking the suits to wear in the car because we are driving from Nice down though Italy staying in agriculture places along the way. I will check out the boardwalk in Nice and if there is no one wearing them, I won't either. In Positano I will wear them around the apartment and on the beach and the trails, I can't see myself wearing regular clothes in those situations.
I appreciate all of your input though, it keeps me balanced.

Signed, a lamb of a certain age.

SeaUrchin, you obviously are mutton, having far too much time to plan your holiday. Who plans where and what to wear? Perhaps a gown for a party one evening, a suit for a meeting, but a jogging suit in a car? My dear scraggy neck of mutton, zip yourself up never to get out.

"Mutton dressed as lamb" is ageist and also sexist, but there is a certain truth in it.

(Does anyone remember the Lloyd Cole song that said "The reason it's a cliche is because it's true"? Or am I just showing my mutton age?)

Even if one is genetically gifted (or disciplined) enough to keep a youthful figure that can wear young clothes, somehow they don't seem to go with a more mature face (not necessarily wrinkled, but there are other skin changes--tone, texture, loss of subcutaneous fat--that happen as one ages). A disconnect can be jarring.

It's all personal of course. I decided years ago that I'd rather look like a young woman than an old girl. So I've tried to develop a personal style that is flexible enough to accomodate trends, but is still me.

One of my style icons is Samuel L. Jackson. I love his funky glasses and Kangol caps. Of course, he's a bald black man and I'm a white woman with long blond hair, so his style isn't going to be easy for me to translate. I can wear the glasses, but have yet to find a Kangol that doesn't make me look goofy.

I saw it mentioned in the NYT's style section, a couple years ago, that Madonna and Mr. Madonna (Scott Ritchie) were wearing velour jogging suits, day in and day out....

elle, the reason it's an offensive phrase is because it goes beyond saying that young and old differ (which is certainly true) but that the older person is inferior to the younger, in the way that mutton is considered inferior meat to that taken from lamb.

I agree that we should dress to suit our assets and minimize our liabilities, but this is true at any age. What matter is height, proportion, how well the garment flatters the face, etc. For example,a young woman who is overweight isn't going to look like 'lamb' dressed in an outfit designed for the Audrey Hepburn figure. On the other hand, depending on the neckline and sleeve length and so forth, the same outfit might make an older but slender woman look very much more 'lamb' like than tough or stringy.

As for cliches being true, no, I disagree with the singer. Some are, but then many racist assertions are cliches, too. I would look to what is useful more than what is commonly believed. A useful saying does more than make the speaker feel superior to another, it points the way to a solution (e.g., "a stitch in time saves nine.")

Anyway, SeaUrchin, what you need isn't a different outfit but a different name for it. Call it a - gee, I dunno, how about 'soft textured pant suit.' As for the shoes, they can be...uh...what's the name of the place where they play the French Open - Roland G something? shoes. If you set the tone, you set the style, and if you set the style, you don't have to worry about following it, now do you? :)

Well, that says it all, doesn't it?

SeaUrchin, the only thing that bothers me about your post is the use of the plural, i.e., jogging suits. Why would you need more than one?

If you are going to run (you said "on the trails") then they would be appropriate. Did you say somewhere when you were going? Because it strikes me that black knit will be too warm for the beach and the Italian hill towns.

I bet you wear them on the plane and maybe in the car, but not out and about. You'll have to let us know. Sounds like a fabulous trip, with or without the jogging suits!

NYCFS, love your remark about "putting nylon and the sun together." LOL.

mkingdom, your opinions mean absolutely nothing to me, so don't bother writing them, sorry.

Now, lamblike ladies, it is nice to read a good discussion like this with out name calling.
I am taking two of them, one for sleeping/lounging and one for outdoor wear, I am leaving next weekend, so it is still chilly.

Very good idea about calling them by different names, I don't even know if they are called jogging suits, how about natural fiber fitted pants with enough spandex to keep the shape and a coordinated zippered top in basic color black with color accents?

I'll wear them like I said and when I jump out of the car to use the toilets and buy drinks on the road.

We'll see what happens, I'll let you know in a few weeks!

PS: I am glad that we agree that it is sexist and ageist to use the word mutton, and I love your explanation suexxyy.

Goldie Hawn? She's 20 years overdue for a makeover. Always looks like she's furiously competing with her young daughter. And Madonna? When she wears those track suits and newsboy hats, she looks like a cast member of the Sopranos!

My dear SeaUrchin I find it so quaint that you assume people will be looking at a middle aged American such as youself "We'll see what happens", er, absolutely nothing, rest assured of that. So much so, be careful when stepping out of cars, other drivers will not see you.

Sorry Seaurchin, but I don't agree that mutton is sexist - I'd use the same phrase if I saw a 50-year old man dressed in the latest street fashions favoured by teens.

As far as ageism is concerned, then yes, the phrase is about age and the inevitable differences between a teenager and someone of, shall we say, more mature years. But there's a big difference between being mature and confident enough to know and dress in styles that suit you rather than desperately trying to hold on to your long-gone youth by dressing and acting in whatever is the latest fashion. My point was that (at least in the UK) the pastel knitted jogging suits were a fad fashion for teens last year and, as such (again I'm only speaking for the UK) would look a little incongruous on someone older than that - as if they DIDN'T have the maturity and confidence to dress in their own style, but had to slavishly follow the youth fashions.

Maybe I'm not explaining myself very well, but surely the young teens in LA must invent their own fashions that someone a little older wouldn't be seen dead in? Or at least not without a little personalisation to make it fit your own style instead of just being the latest uniform?

Oh, and as far as lamb and mutton are concerned, any half decent chef will tell you that when cooked correctly mutton is by far the tastiest meat ;-)

OK Xenos and Sera, I agree with both of you, good points.

I did buy the clothes in the ladies activewear section of a store, so they are cut for adults. I know what you mean about competing with youngsters and I am not doing that believe me.

I didn't realize there could be male muttons, see there is always something to learn here on Fodors.

LOL - of course there are male muttons - it's just that they prefer to call themselves rams :$

I had no idea there was a qualitative difference between mutton or lamb, she said sheepishly. Sue--thank ewe for enlightening me.