New etiquette question
 

In our far flung travels, I have noticed one particularly rude habit...on cruises, in open air theaters, performances, beaches, etc....when people come early (sometimes getting up before dawn as we noticed on one beach in Mombassa) TO 'STAKE OUT' the chairs, sometimes rows of them, with books, blankets, towels, etc. Then when you approach, they say that seat is 'taken'. I just usually sit down, and if they say it is taken, I reply, "don't see anyone sitting here, do you?" What do other people do about this problem. Like on a cruise, folks stake out their deck chairs, then go away for the day, the beauty shop, the casino, and usually can return and find their seat waiting for them, while others go without. Seems unfair to me and I don't put up with it. While on a cruise one time, a woman "hogged" an entire front row of choice viewing seats as we were passing thru a glacier area, (for her family who were ill, but would be arriving shortly) and not until there was a near riot did she begrudgingly relinquish some of them.

I disagree with your premise entirely. <BR> <BR>Think of it as an informal reservation system. If I get to the movie early, and then a few of my party wish to use the facilities or buy snacks, do you really think you should wedge your behind into their seats if you have been told the seats are taken? I'll have an usher throw you right out. <BR> <BR>Sure, there can be abuses at the margin. Someone who saves seats for no-shows, or saves more seats than they really need. But no one gets up at the crack of dawn to save seats for no-shows, so those things are usually due to unfortunate miscommunications. <BR> <BR>Moreover, it is the late-comers who are the problem. At a Disney waterpark, we made the effort to get there at rope drop to get a picnic area with shade. We spread our things out and rode rides, etc. When we returned to the spot, squatters were using our area. No big deal. When we returned, they did the right thing -- finished their lunch, picked up their things, and moved on. <BR> <BR>What a hoot! I can imagine a smackdown brawl where Sandi comes across a spot of beach she wants, waits for the family to frolic in the surf, and tosses their things aside in a heap to claim the spot. <BR> <BR>If you want a good seat, get there early, Sandi. Or sleep in and take your chances.

I totally agree with above poster. <BR>The reason that people arrive early is to make certain they have the seats they want. <BR>If other people want to have wonderful seats for any event- let them plan and prepare as early as the people who are using their own form of reservation system. <BR>I can't tell you how many times parents of my students have come <BR>early to save seats for their whole family. I let them use their own 'system" as it must be very important to them to have taken the time and made the effort to show up so early. <BR>

I completely agree with Sandy. Were these seats available to book, it wouldn't be an issue, but they aren't, so, if you got up early, and got your seat, fine, but you can't "stake out", as Sandi says, an entire row for your relatives, friends, who are coming later. Nor you have the right to leave whatever insignificant belonging of yours, or a towel that doesn't belong to you on them, as if the seats were yours for the whole day. This is clearly a very selfish behavior, not civilized at all. <BR> <BR>I've seen this happening with groups of friends, or a families that are traveling together. One of them gets to the place earlier, and saves an entire row of seats for the belated ones. Then, they take their time doing whatever is, whereas someone who is getting to the place a minute after, can't get any seat. Then, the entire horde but one leaves to buy popcorn, or hotdogs, or soda, to go to the toilet ( yes, they have to do it in hords), or sea bathing, and the seats are there, blocked, waiting for them to come back who knows when, while others have to wait until the whole group decides to leave. Is this reasonable? I don't think so.. This is selfishness and impoliteness. <BR> <BR>Surlok

Really, Sandi. The system you propose is wholly unworkable. <BR> <BR>If people couldn't save seats, then everyone would have to plant their butts in their seats and never leave. If they got up to urinate/eat/make a phone call/say hello to someone/swim/get some money/wash their hands or anything at all, someone is perched there ready to pounce. If your family is watching TV, and someone gets up to get a snack, do the others feel they can take that person's seat? Of course not. You are probably more civil and respectful than that. <BR> <BR>It reminds me of a nature special about the animals in the jungle. The lion (that's me) kills a deer. I settle in to eat. But behind me, licking its lips, just waiting for me to wander off for a minute, is a hyena (that's you), hoping to install itself as the owner of the deer carcass. <BR> <BR>Why do you want to spend your life as a hyena, Sandi?

Marlin Perk-ins, <BR> <BR>This was a very bad, and badly chosen, comparison. <BR> <BR>What Sandi meant, and I did too, is one single person saving a whole row of seats, and not on the contrary. <BR> <BR>Of course one has to urinate, preferably into a toilet, and not on the chair, so, this is not the point. What I ask is: do they ALL have to go urinating at the same time, and have one of them, that has not the same urge holding on ( poor him, or her) to save their seats??? <BR> <BR>Surlok <BR> <BR>

As usual, some fodorites take the issue out of context and make a deal out of it. I am referring one person who comes to a function, or who goes up on deck on a ship, and 'reserves' an entire row for all their friends, etc. Of course, if you must vacate your seat for moments, or even a while, having sat in it initially entitles you to leave it, but you can't sit in 20 seats at a time, can you. Most high class cruise companies dissallow this practice now, and remove towels from deck chairs if they are left unattended for two long (sign on the wall says so) and ditto the lounge and theater areas. I think it is preposterously rude to think that you can SAVE an entire row, for folks who may never even show up...just in case, and I don't feel the least bit shy about claiming an unclaimed seat.

Gee Surlock and Sandi, <BR> <BR>How many people in a row of 20 do you think should be able to leave their seats at once? Is there some mathematical formula you would use? Why do you care if they go en masse or one at a time, anyway? You're aware they plan to sit there, and you still don't get to sit there, do you? <BR> <BR>If a large party needs to save seats, then they need to have as many people "babysit" the seats as they feel is appropriate (2? 5? 9? who cares?), and they have to get there early enough to find the requisite space. If they leave a responsible adult there to advise me the seat is taken, that's good enough for me. <BR> <BR>Yes, it is an abuse when someone leaves their towel on the chair for a whole day. But in that case, they didn't leave someone to save the seat. They left an inanimate object that can't say "Sorry, I'm saving this for my husband, who went off to make a call." So I have much less sympathy. When you encounter this situation, you should inquire to nearby persons, "Is this seat being used?" If no one answers, you may remove the towel, fold it, and have the seat. <BR> <BR>But for the usual seat-saving, beach-stakeout done with live "babysitters" who made the supreme effort to beat you to the spot, I disagree with you.

Warning: Henceforth, if you are a family at the beach, a few of you must sit on the blanket AT ALL TIMES to reserve your spot. You may not all go buy food or swim at the same time. Failure to heed this warning or leaving an insufficient number of persons on your blanket will constitute abandonment, and Sandi and surlock will summarily evict you.

The scene: Movie theater at which a first run movie was beeng played. <BR>We arrived early to get "the best seats". Sat next to a single male with 1 empty seat between us. Theater filled except for the front 10rows or so. After the lights had dimmed and previews were showing, a couple came in and the female proceeded to "direct traffic" so they could sit in a "good spot" and asked us to all shift to the left 1 spot and the single to shift to the right 1spot (allowing them to sit in the center) I said No and that we came early to get the seats we wanted and I wished she wouldn't interrupt our movie experience. She shot me a look. went to sit in the front and our entire row applauded!

Sandi, thank you for starting this thread. I'm glad to read the differing viewpoints of others, because I have found the 'rules' for this situation ambiguous, and I think this is what is most frustrating for me. <BR> <BR>The passion with which we might have feelings on the issue doesn't, alas, do much to produce clarity. I think it really has to be up to the management to clarify the rules of the situation. <BR> <BR>I do note someone's point about arriving 'early' but this is an undefined term, whereas commencement of a particular event (like a movie) usually has a specific, published starting time. Ergo, what defines 'early?' To me, it might be 30 minutes in advance, to others, 5 minutes in advance, to yet others, 5 hours in advance of the official starting time. <BR> <BR>Second problem. The rule often quoted is 'first come, first served.' However, I am confused by a demand to be served when someone has not, in fact, come. As when they are arriving some time after their appointed 'seat reserver.' This is quite different from holding a seat for someone who has arrived, but must make a temporary and necessary absence (say, for visiting the washroom.) <BR> <BR>Third problem. Lack of information. I think most of us would have a different reaction to, say, seats being held for someone physically frail as opposed to someone healthy. In addition, large groups (where 'large' means they will occupy a significant proportion of seats) pose a problem if they wish to sit together, because of the inherent lack of flexibility in such an arrangement. One could argue that one's ticket entitles one to a seat, but not necessarily to one that is contiguous with one's travelling companions. <BR> <BR>In the end, though, I wish management would simply recognize that the problem occurs, and devise a uniform and consistent policy.

Hello, I agree with Sandi. <BR> <BR>We , as a society, have often lost our common sense, or even better do not do to others what you wouldn't like done to yourself....remmember? <BR> <BR>It is the same at home, I think that is oK to leave your cart in the super market line for a couple of minutes to pick up ONE item you forgot, but I believe it is very rude to leave your cart and keep on shopping for more than one item.... <BR> <BR>

Snadi, <BR>How do you know that people (whether in a group or not) are leaving objects in their seats and going away for the day? <BR>Do you actually wait there and make sure that people in fact left for the day, or you just assume that if they are not in their chairs, they have gone away for the day and plant yourself in their seats? <BR> <BR>Some people could have just left to go to the bathroom for a couple of minutes (people need to urinate you know!), or get something from their room, or maybe they went swimming for 20 minutes. <BR> <BR>Poeple should be allowed to urinate or swim in the beach without having to worry about somebody just throwing their belogings away and plant themselves in your seat. <BR> <BR> I think it is extremely rude to just sit down if somebody says that the seats are taken. Are your implying that people should remain in their seats all the time, making sure that the seats are occupied all the time? Maybe they should have a built-in toilet in beach and cruise chairs and theater seats. <BR> <BR>Also forget about swimming if you are at the beach, better guard your chair you never know who is scoping the area waiting for you to go to the bathroom to take it away from you!! <BR> <BR>Now that is what I call extremely rude. <BR>If that ever happen to my companions and I after I came back from the bathroom, I will call the police and accuse that person of stealing my wallet just to cause that person a problem. <BR> <BR>Come on be civilized!

ToTheTop

Let's say you want to buy tickets to a concert sporting event etc. where there are only limited tickets for sale. Can you save a place in line for all of your friends who will be there later and then get in line with you? What about sending someone ahead to save a spot for everybody in your group in the buffet line, so they can "but in" when they get there? <BR>How about one person waiting in line and saving your place for 2 hours at the Uffizi Gallery while the rest of your party goes sightseeing around Florence? <BR>I would say that if you are there first, the seat is yours. But, you shouldn't be able to save a seat for people who will be comming after you. First there, first served. You only not those to come later.

Sandi is taking about just sitting down in someone else's seat just because the person is not physically present. <BR>If somebody left to get a drink of water for five minutes and left his/her family member to say to anybody approching this seat is taken, what is wrong with that? <BR> <BR>Sandi will snatch anybody's seat if she does not see the person physically sitting in the seat. To her an empty seat with a towel and couple of personal belonging means that the person has gone for the day. <BR>That is what she is implying! <BR>You cannot leave your chair ever, or there will be Sandi taking it away from you. <BR> <BR>She will be luring in the background, scoping the territory, keeping time of how long every person is gone, keeping a record of who is saving seats for their families, waiting for the moment when nature calls and you have to leave, to say "don't see anybody sitting here, do you?

Sandi is talking about...I know there are people losing sleep checking everybody's spelling and grammatical mistakes

xxxx: <BR>If you read Sandi's original post, that's not what she said at all. She asked about someone saving seats for people who weren't there yet. Some just put something on the chair(eg. a napkin, handkerchief etc.)and think they have claimed it. Or just say "This row is taken." when there is no one else there and never has been. <BR>To me this doesn't cut it.

Yes, people should be allowed to save seats. Usually, the system works just fine. As with anything, a few people will abuse it, but that is the minority, in my experience. <BR> <BR>I usually arrive early for kids' school performances to get the best seats. If I am not early enough, that is too bad for me, and I would never try to evict someone from a seat they indicated was occupied. I choose from what is available when I get there. I save seats for my husband and his parents (four seats), and sometimes hubby arrives late. If someone challenged me, I'd be astounded and, um, they would not get the seats. <BR> <BR>So what's the difference between that and letting all of your friends cut in line at the buffet? Well, when there is seating (or beach space), the person saving the space is saving a defined amount of space. In the buffet line, people behind you are rightly miffed if they thought they were in a short line only to find out it is a long line because you're going to let a busload of people cut in front. <BR> <BR>As for buying a bunch of concert tickets when you get to the window, that's fine, unless management limits the number of tickets per person, which they frequently do. <BR> <BR>For those of you steamed about all the seats with jackets hanging on them, just pretend that there was a hostess at the door, and as each family representative appeared, he/she was given reservations for as many seats as needed. That is how restaurants work, and no one objects, right? No one fumes because someone "saved" a table by sending one representative instead of having every member of the party present until it is time to eat. <BR> <BR>The funny thing is, while Sandi is prowling around, judging who has been gone too long, or perhaps has yet to arrive, I'm going to quickly grab seats in the next row before they are gone too.

First Arrived, <BR>Read the post, I quote,"Then when you approach, they say that seat is 'taken'. I just usually sit down, and if they say <BR>it is taken, I reply, "don't see anyone sitting here, do you?" <BR> <BR>That is exactly what she said. If she does not see anybody sitting in the chair at the precise moment she arrives, she takes it. <BR> <BR>My question is also, how do you know that people are gone for the day? <BR>You also said that if somebody says "This row is taken," but nobody is physically in the seat at that moment they are lying and that gives you the right to take the seat. How do you know that the person did not just go to the bathroom and his or her fmaily member is telling the truth, and the seat is taken, but the person is just gone for a minutes? <BR> <BR>READ THE POST:Sandi will sit down first without asking (probably throwing the person's belonging away), and then if a family member says the seat is taken, she responds that if no one is physically present, then the seat is not taken. Therefore, the conclusion is you must be present in your seat at all times, otherwise it is considered to be abandoned (regardless of how long you are gone), and can be taken. <BR> <BR>Unless you spend the entire day scoping for seats, and monitoring the movement of your fellow travelers, you cannot be 100% certain that somebody is gone for the day.

topper

Do people "save" seats in Europe?

First, I do think the cruise ship co. is at fault if there is no explicit policy and no enforcement. The larger the ship, the bigger the problem. There ought to be "sweeps" at various intervals when unoccupied chairs are freed up. <BR> <BR>Second, I don't think anyone should be able to reserve more than a couple of chairs at a time, maybe up to 4 for two couples. More people than that aren't really a social group, anyway, since talking "across" more than one or two chairs is impossible. <BR> <BR>Third, Sandi, as usual you have a point worth making, but your demeanor is a bit unpleasant. The "I don't see anyone sitting there" comment is itself impudent. I think you are entitled to challenge a claim to a chair that isn't immediately next to one that is occupied by moving an "abandoned" towel; but far better would be "Oh, I'm sorry, I thought they'd just left something behind. Let me know when they come back." If a whole row is empty, Sandi, you are safe in staying put even if someone "comes back" because there will be plenty of other chairs. <BR> <BR>It's really a matter of dueling squatter's rights: a visible, in-the-flesh squatter paries an invisible squatter if there are plenty of empty chairs. But dueling rudeness always louses things up.

It's a good thing some of you guys are not taking a test that matters, cause you simply can't read with much understanding....I did not say you should purloin ANY chair that is unoccupied, only that one has a right to a seat, and coming early and spreading an entire row or two with towels and such, then going away, or leaving one 'sitter' is inappropriate and I don't allow myself to be pushed aside that way. It is selfish and unfair. On a boat, when I see a book, a pair of glasses, or in my case I leave my purse (where I can see it if I am in the pool or getting a drink poolside) says to anyone looking, "I am using this chair and am temporarily elsewhere". Most fair people agree that requisitioning large amounts of space, depriving other paying customers of a right to sit down should NOT be tolerated~!!!!!

Sandi, I just don't get you. <BR> <BR>Yes, if seats are limited and the place is filling up, you can be a bit more assertive about investigating whether a seat will really be used if you think someone is saving more seats than they need. But if a live person assures you it is taken, you are way out of line to plunk down in it anyway. In the US, there are so many crazies that you'll get your face pounded in if you keep that up. <BR> <BR>But the reason the current informal system exists is because other approaches get unworkable in a hurry. When I go to the movies with my extended family, we are 15 people. How many seats can we save? Can they be all in one row? Are we required to choose lousy seats because we need so many, even if good seats are available? How many seat savers must we designate for 15 seats? Or are you saying we can't save any seats, and we must mill about the lobby until a critical mass has arrived? And how many is that critical mass? Do the people count as "arrived" if they plan to vacate their seat before the show to buy popcorn? Should we separate into five groups of three, so as to be less of a bother to you? If I change the facts to make it two adults and 13 kids, do your answers change? (I'm not going to even quiz Surlock about how many of us can go to the bathroom at once.) <BR> <BR>I just don't get what you're really angry about. It sounds like you get upset if you think there aren't enough seats (take it up with management), you think people are purposely saving seats for phantoms, (unlikely, but take it up with management) or you're just mad that you can't have the best quality seats (get there earlier). So what is the problem again?

To previous poster...yes, if you want the seats that you want, then get there in time, same as everyone else has to do. After you have registered it as 'taken' by sitting in it, or at least showing up and demonstrating that you intend to use it, you may be excused to buy your popcorn, or whatever. But to come early and claim a bunch of seats for folks who are too lazy to get there on time is distinctly rude. Or at least, it used to be. But I see you are inventing new rules to suit yourself, and to hell with everyone else.

I can only say that I have arrived in person with my whole family 1 and 1/2 hours early to see my daughters plays each year. Each year I am heart broken because all the decent seats are covered with books and and other "seat holders". We are dressed and willing to wait until the play has began in order to get a decent seat. I would never think of getting there in the morning and placing a seat holder down. It is selfish and rude. I was there ready, dressed, showered, prepared. Only a thoughtless person could think that this behavior is civilized and kind to others. Once we were in Disney Land. Sat next to the cement curb two hours early for the Parade, no books, towels and so forth.Real people being responsible. Boyfriend gets up to get us sodas and a wheelchair slides into his place. What can I say?? The guy's in a wheel chair!! During the parade he exits the wheelchair to dance with the kids on his back. I bet he got to the front of the line at each ride. I bet lots of you posters also have a wheelchair in your closet. Sandi, your right.

Speaking from someone who has had to hold a seat for a person while s/he went to use the bathroom, get snacks, etc., it's awkward. At least for me it is. I hate to have to say "Sorry, this seat is taken" and get THAT LOOK. I feel embarrassed, as if I must justify that there really is a person coming back, I'm not just saying that to have extra room. If, on the other hand, I ask someone "Is that seat taken?" and they reply with a 'yes' I understand and don't have a problem w/ it. I DO have a problem w/ people taking up more than 2-3 seats at a time. There's no reason why that many people have to get up at once, thus teasing those who think they have a shot at a decent seat, only to find that they didn't. <BR>

Sandi, <BR>You should read your original poster. You said that if you find a chair with a towel on it, you would just sit down, without asking anybody if it is indeed occupied. And if a "sitter" says the sit is taken, you would unpolitely reply, "don't see anyone sitting here, do you?" <BR> <BR>This is your original poster: <BR>"Then when you approach, they say that seat is 'taken'. I just usually sit down, and if they say <BR>it is taken, I reply, "don't see <BR>anyone sitting here, do you?" <BR> <BR>Where I come from that is extremely rude. It denotes a lack of manners by my standards. It denotes selfishness, and lack opf respect for others. <BR> <BR>I agree with you, it is selfish and rude to take all the chairs, by getting there early and putting towels and other objects until your friends get there. <BR> <BR>Nevertheless, there are moe polite ways to go about it. You can ask the person, is this seat taken? Are the people you are holding the seat for coming back soon? You can say I stood here, and have not seen anybody using the chair. <BR>Just taking somebody's chair without an attempt to talk to the person is just vulgar. <BR> <BR>You can try at least to talk to the person, not assume that the "sitter' is a liar and just take the seat without ensuring that the seat is indeed not taken.

Oh c*** guys -- haven't you figured out yet that Sandi is trolling. And displaying for all to see what a twisted perspective she has? Give it a rest already.

Some of you people are just nuts, thats it.! For the last time, this is an issue when in public, and I would like some sincere thoughts. It is incredible how you folks who come and hog an entire row or two, thus driving others who also came (a few minutes later)to go without. A gian case of rationalization. It always amazes me how people can rationalize almost anything that is in their interests; never mind the other guy. If you want to see the show (fireworks, parade, theater group, band concert, etc.) you Must get there, sit down, and, (except for your husband, child, friend, etc., who needs the toilet) stay put. It's incredible to me that anyone thinks otherwise. And yes, I should have said that I usually inquire politely that I would like a seat if it is not being used. When someone replies "I am saving all these, and all those,{" then I feel justified in just sitting down. What else is someone to do?

Sandi starts more argumentive trolls than anyone else on this forum, that's bad enough then she tries to justify herself, she has probably never been to Mombassa or on a cruise. . probably never been anywhere.Hope she stays at home she could damage foreign relations even more than the GWB. she just stays home and tries to intimidate fat people,(see another of her posts). Too bad some take her seriously, all we do is enable her. <BR>She is a mean, small, self centered little person! And look up the meaning of etiquette or manners or politeness, you are none of the above, Sandi!

This is an amusing post. I've only been on one cruise in my life, though, and noticed that sme people do have this insidious mindset when faced with any event that might fill up quickly teling them "Get there early, put towels/newspapers/programs/hats/umbrellas/whatever" and they HOG whole rows of seats, without the people who are going to be occupying them actually making any kind of effort to get to the event early. This, frankly, chaps my *--ss* On the other hand, I've been to enough school events that my husband might or might not make it to, depending on his schedule, that I've saved many a chair for him over the past 10 years. <BR>Is it a question of numbers? If you're talking about staking out 20 chairs, yes, I have a problem. If it's about staking out 3, well, I really don't because I understand how hard it is to get the whole family up and showered and dressed and to the same place at the same time. <BR>I guess sometimes I'm the perpetrator and sometimes I'm the angered person left with the bad seats. It's not something that preoccupies my time, though.

Honestly what is trolling? i am not familiar with the term

Let's recap: <BR> <BR>1. Inanimate objects can't save seats for people who haven't arrived. <BR> <BR>2. Live people can save seats for people who have arrived, or people who have not. <BR> <BR>3. People shouldn't abuse the rules and save too many seats. <BR> <BR>4. People should get there early if they want a good seat. <BR> <BR>5. Sandi is rude, rude, rude.

This isn't a troll. A troll is someone who makes up a wild story to get everyone agitated. I have no doubt that Sandi is telling the truth, and she is exactly as rude as she claims to be. <BR> <BR>That said, I question the idea that the only way to lay claim to something that is normally first-come-first-serve is to be physically present. <BR> <BR>In the US, if a parking lot is full, you can circle around waiting for a space. Or you can sit in your car by the entrance, waiting for a pedestrian to walk in on the way to their car. Where I live, if someone drives slowly next to a pedestrian, it is "understood" that they get that pedestrian's spot, even if another driver manages to zip over and be physically present at the spot first. <BR> <BR>BTW, far more annoying than seat savers are the people in back of you in line at the grocery store who sprint to the newly opened line ahead of you. Or those people who, when the cashier asks "Who was next?" claim they were there first when they know they weren't.

She had a ligitimate question and its OK to disagree, but some of you people sound like you would punch her if you saw her. The thing I see people getting worked up about blows my mind.

I think it's time for some humour, and I'm here to politely inform you all that I've staked out all the remaining posts on this thread for the comments of my friends and relatives. Thank you, now remember, the rest of this thread is taken.... : - )

My boyfriend and I went to a wonderful resort in St. Lucia for ten days in February. Chairs under thatched roofs on the beach were at a premium, as we soon discovered. People woke up early so they could get down to the beach, reserve a chair with towel/book/bag/hat, then wander off. My boyfriend and I realized this when we got to the beach at 10 after a leisurely breakfast and there were no more thatched-roof shelters. The next morning, and each following morning, we woke up early, staked out our beach spot, and went to breakfast - then came back after we'd eaten. Everyone did this. However, one day we toured the waterfalls and knew we wouldn't get to the beach until early afternoon - so we didn't reserve seats. We did note that plenty of other people would do this - leave towels and other belongings, then not show up until 1 or 2!! One particularly nasty woman left stuff on a chair at 8:30 in the morning (I was there at the same time) and didn't come back until 3. Someone had moved her stuff. She was irate, and sent the poor beach staff up and down the beach from person to person to find what had been "stolen." It was a book. Turns out she'd forgotten where she'd left it - it had been marking her spot, and some other person had been without a hut because of her selfishness. This, I think, is inconscionable.

Well, from the posts on this thread so far, it appears that the majority wouldn't think twice about having any consideration for anyone besides their selves. That's pathetic and I'm truly saddened by the attitude of people here. I thoroughly agree with Sandi (except one of her solutions: "I just usually sit down, and if they say it is taken, I reply, "don't see anyone sitting here, do you?"). <BR> <BR>I've seen the scenario noted by Lizzie many times but apparently it's OK with most the people here. Looks like the courteous & polite people are obviously outnumbered and we have to continue to put up with overwhelming number of rude, selfish people. <BR> <BR>