Mugged in Madrid
 

Hi, we recently arrived from a wonderful trip to Spain, basically Castille and Leon and a three days in Madrid.
I love Spain. However I feel it is my duty as it is painful to me only to remember it, to tell you that we were mugged in the subway in Madrid.
It was March 4 th a lovely Sunday morning. We were a little off guard, and that is what I wish to stress DO NOT BE OFF GUARD never. There were very few people at that subway station , Plaza de Alonso Martinez ,a few blocks from the British Embassy, but when the train was arriving a bunch of 6 or 5 big guys, well dressed blocked our entrance to the wagon. Someone made believe he dropped a cigarrette and thus some of them bended, when I shout QUE PASA AQUI, he had the nerve to respond, and I believe his accent was Rumanian.( a Latin language that is easy to recognize and I happen to know a few words)
I guess their nationality is unimportant ,a few things were stolen from us , including a drivers licence, we felt so stupid, we felt really disgusted with ourselves for being off guard.
They way they act though so many of them together coming out of the blue moon , is scary and once you are targeted it is, I believe, difficult to avoid them.
My honest advice would be , be twice as alert as in any previous trip, do not carry anything, anything with you, and do not be a fool as we were by taking the subway.
I honestly hope this helps people traveling to big cities. We go every year to Spain, we love it, and will come back .

Hi G,

From your description, you seem to have been robbed, but not mugged.

I do hope that you weren't hurt.

((I))

Just one of many such incidents documented on Fodors in Madrid and Barcelona - to me it's a scandal that authorities don't try to do more to stop it. So let's keep publicizing this terrible aspect of these two cities in hopes that publicity will cause these cities to lose tourist dollars and act again street crime which seems rife in these cities.
My sister-in-law was mugged, not robbed at 7am on a Sunday morning in front of Atocha station and got bruised and a black eye - meanwhile some shopkeepers stop nearby doing nothing.

Everytime i mention these crimes in these two times there are folks who say it's exaggerated and that i'm some kind of a Cassandra. But i'm on a crusade to publicize this to save folks who are unsuspecting of a similar fate.

You said you were a "little off guard." Assuming that you still took the subway, what could you have done to have prevented the attack? It seems like if 5 or 6 big guys block your way, there's not a lot you can do. If you had been totally looking out, could you have avoided the guys in advance?

The same exact thing happened to me in the Sol Metro station on Saturday night. As I was about to enter the train, about 4 men pushed in front of me, and sure enough, my wallet was taken. They were from Romania - I know this because the Vigilancia caught them and told me so. Of course my wallet was long gone, so they couldn´t do anything.

Like Graziella5b, I love Spain, and will still continue to visit, but I will always remember this unfortunate incident.

What could you have done to avoid this, Missypie asks?

1. Remember that early Sunday morning (when two of these attacks occured) is the end of Saturday night in Spain. Some clubs don't close until 8 AM, and there are people going home then who make easy marks for bad guys. Tourists are usually even easier marks than drunks. Maybe taking a taxi early Sunday morning is a better idea.

2. Keep your guard up, as the OP knew. If you get to the platform and it is empty, maybe you ought to wait back near the ticket booth until more people arrive, even if you miss a train. Don't be in a hurry to get on the train until you see who is getting off and who is standing near the door. If they look sketchy, don't get on or enter another car. Yes, it seems like the train is only in the station a short time, but you can do it. And if you can't, another train always comes along.

This is stuff you know if you live in a big city, but you don't if you live in a small city and don't take public transportation.

this seems to be a pretty good M.O. for the metro, bus, etc. - block the doors with some kind of ruse, and the operators behind and alongside you can take a generous amount of time going through your things. I wonder if the single-mindedness of most visitors (THIS is our stop! we HAVE to get off here!) makes it easier to pull this stunt on us. The locals usually holler "Que bruto!" and dismissively scatter most of the kids trying this, but a concerted group of men would be hard to ignore. But I wonder what the outcome might have been if you'd worked your way back into the car & were stuck in there with the thugs until the next stop. Excellent advice about vigilance, however, you can still be wide-eyed and more carefree in safer environs.

Thank you Ira, my English is not that precise, may be I was robbed, or lightly mugged.
It was not early Sunday morning it was after noon, like 12.30, or is this early for Madrid ?
If you want to know there were very few persons at the place we were taking the train, the moment it was arriving they appeared out of the blue moon.
I guess once been targeted taking the train or staying would have been the same because they were quiet a few , pushing and heavy jostling , and then that tall well dressed man telling me that he has dropped a cigarette....!!!!! What a nerve, that very second I knew it, but as he said that he joined his fellow crooks and was gone.

I wish to clarify he told me that because I shouted
QUE PASA, but they had already taken the things from my husband's pocket, he joined them and was gone.

The U.S. State Department i believe a bit back issued a warning about metros from the airport into town. Last time i rode there was a policeman posted in every car. Now i know why.

Cassandra

I will say that we saw lots of cops at the busy metro stations in the evenings in Barcelona; quite a few had muzzled dogs. Sounds like the cops need to be at the quiet metro stations.

A friend was swarmed twice this summer in Spain, in two different cities, and once they got her passport. She had so been looking forward to her return to Spain, but now she's never going back, she says, which is unfortunate, but I guess I can understand. This is a person who was well-experienced, well-traveled, and had lived in other countries before.

These types of unfortunate incidents can happen to anyone, even to people who live in big cities and have taken public transportation their whole lives.

I didn't realize things were as bad also in Madrid! Of course, Barcelona is a well known fact although many people insist in saying it is "like in any other big city". Unfortunately, NOT!

Hi G,
>Thank you Ira, my English is not that precise, may be I was robbed, or lightly mugged.<

Had you been mugged you would know it. :)

Muggers operate by attacking their victims and rendering them semiconscious by beating or choking before they rob them.

I'm pleased that you weren't hurt.

((I))

Graziellla5b - seems you were mugged and perhaps you have a better grasp of the English language than fokes in Jo-Ja!

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Look up Mugging in
Wiktionary, the free dictionary.

Mugging is a type of robbery, in which the perpetrator (the mugger) accosts the victim in a public place, such as a street or parking lot, and demands money and/or valuables. The robber will typically threaten to use a weapon such as a gun or knife, but mugging can also involve physically beating the victim. Mugging differs from theft in its use of violence or intimidation.

Just to clarify what I wrote earlier: nothing I said was meant to blame the victim. I have been mugged (beaten into the gutter and robbed) on a well lighted street in the northeast, and I was with a friend who as "pickpocketed" by a group on the Metro between Bastille and St Paul in Paris. It happens.

But I did want to suggest that there are things you can do to reduce the odds.

If I had crossed the street when I saw the group of guys hanging out next to a car, I would have been less likely to be mugged. If my friend had not worried about missing his stop and had stood in the middle of the Metro car rather than near the door, he would have been less likely a target.

I think that most people are pretty aware on their own turf. I work in downtown Dallas and I have walked to my car in the parking garage many times late at night. I've not gotten off the elevator on the floor I pressed because I didn't like who was on that floor; I've pretended to have forgotten something in my office to avoid getting on certain elevators. But you've got me...in Barcelona, when it was our metro stop, we by gosh were going to get off. I guess if there had been a riot or something we would have stayed on, but I don't think we were savvy enough to have stayed on if the platform just "didn't look right."

I witnessed a theft this past week at the Goya Metro in Madrid, Sunday afternoon, around 5 or 6 PM.

It was my first Metro ride in Madrid.

I was mindful of some accounts on these forums about people being picked from behind while someone in front of you held you up or bumped into you.

So when I got to the platform, I stayed near the entrance/exit against one of the side walls. Well there was a guy who came up behind me. Straight hair, maybe 150-160 pounds. I didn't like having this guy in front of me.

It was a long wait for the train and at one point, this guy behind me convo'd with another guy who had been standing near the edge of the platform but also close to the entrance/exit of the platform.

This other guy was about the same size, maybe a bit larger, had curly hair and darker complexion. I don't know what gypsies look like. To me, this second guy looked kind of Hispanic (as opposed to Spanish), while the first guy looked more European/Spanish. But he could have been Rumanian or whatever.

Finally the train arrived and I noticed both of them heading into the same train door, the one nearest the platform entrance/exit. That same door was the nearest to me but I veered off and took the next door or the one after the next.

Wasn't anticipating anything but I saw some jostling in the front train where the two guys had gone in. I didn't see what happened but the two guys ran out of the train and ran thru the exit tunnels.

Their victims were an older couple. The husband was pretty good sized but his cheeks looked flushed. They each were carrying or towing some luggage, like at least a carryon and some assorted smaller bags.

Not sure what was stolen but the couple got off the train.

Later, I wished I had my camera handy to take pics.

I noticed some stations have cameras and others have security presence here and there, typically groups of cops or metro police or whatever. Saw a dog once.

Cops in general seem sporadically dispersed around the city. Some of the buildings had guards with automatic weapons but that may have been more for ceremonial reasons.

I seem to recall a much more visible police presence in Barcelona last March. Especially down in the Ramblas.

Also a lot of cops around in the day in Buenos Aires too.

Not suggesting in any way that Spain or Hispanic countries have more security issues than other countries. I've seen visible security in other European cities of course.

Anyways, after witnessing this, I always went to the middle of the platform, rather than near the entrance/exits. I did usually stand near the doors, preferably with my back to the wall or the door opposite the one which opened. Kept my wallet in my chest pocket of my coat (it was very cold this week), often buttoned up. Left my passport at the apartment where I stayed and most places, especially El Corte Ingles, only required looking at my California Drivers License before charging my credit card.

I was robbed in Rome near Termini and I know three other people this happened to. Rome is not as safe as those damn guidebooks say but I have returned four times since this happened. However, now I wear my handbag in my coat or try not to wear one at all.

I felt very ashamed when I was robbed too. When I went to do the denunzia at the police station, I did so in Italian but the the police still treated me like crap and like it was my fault. They told me I should go to the hospital because it would be better for the report since I had sustained an injury.

When I got to the hospital the nurse told me in Italian: "This is not America, you know. You can not go around showing all your wealth here like you do there. Ok? Not everyone here is rich,OK?"
I felt so humiliated and was limping everywhere. The doctors came to examine me and basically had an attitude like "Why are you wasting our time with this bullsh--? Can't you see we are busy?"
The ironic part was I was not wearing anything expensive. I just had the bad luck to be caught aroud Termini alone on a rainy Monday night.

Don't blame yourself. It happens to the best of us-natives, tourists, etc. Alot of Roman women told me they try not to walk the streets after 10 pm alone. I just figured since I was from NY I was invincible. So not true.

My dear PQ,

In what way does the incident described by the OP conform to the definition of "mugging" that you cited?

Was force or threat of force involved?

>perhaps you have a better grasp of the English language than fokes in Jo-Ja!<

My seconds shall call upon you, suh.

((I))

Actually think this is one of the better threads running especially if people read everything and pay attention. Don't want to blame the victum but I do think that we all send out slight vibs about what we are doing or intend to do. AND I think the pickpockets, theives are very good at reading those signals. That kind of sets ourselves up for the hit. We need to be aware of those signals and try to avoid sending them.

We have traveled about 300 days in Europe over the past 15 years or so, multi times in Rome, Barcelona, etc. and have never had a problem. BUT we do a lot of small things that I hope cancells those vibs especially with the subways and buses.

Stop and think about the normal behavior of most people in the subway -- bunched up in a knot on the platform, attention focused in the direction that train is coming, etc. Why??? we always know which direction the train is coming from and we know where it is going to stop. There is little advantage to being first in line to get on the cars.

I make the assumption that you have to be set up in advance for the stop and grab. They have to spot you, deem you to be a worth target, and anticipate you movements so that they can get someone in front and in back of you to excute the theft.

We try to disrupt all three actions but especially the anticipated movements. We always make a point of standing away from crowd on the platform by sitting on the bench, if available, or standing with our backs againt the wall or at one end of the platform. That way almost everyone is in front of us and we can watch the crowd for suspicious characters.

We don't move until the cars have actually stopped and then rather quickly move up or down one or two cars. And if a car is slow in loading we might move to another set of doors.

We do the same when getting off. We focus and discuss the stop before we intend to get off. If getting off at D we focus on C. That why if we are overheard we have not given away our intended action. And again, we wait until the car completely stops before moving towards a door. And most times it is not the closest door.

We follow the same practice with existing the subway. Often hang to the back of the exiting mob. If we have a long passage way to the exit may stop a few seconds to adjust a bag or any delay to allow some of the crowd to pass us and to see if anyone stops behind us. When approaching escalators or stairs again try to distrupt your anticpated movements -- stop for few seconds and let others pass. If headed towards the left escalator shift quickly to the right one. Same for entry gates into the subway. Try to be as unpredictable with your movements as you can. For us it is second nature we don't think twice about it. It has either contributed to our success or we have been lucky.

This activity used to drive our kids nuts --- Dad, you are always seeing a spook around every corner. But noticed on the last trip that older son had adopted the same habits. Try it. Works for us.

Ira, when someone has been violated, it is perhaps not the best time to discuss the fine points of whether such violation is better described by this or that term.

****

Graziella, it sounds like you succeeded in holding on to many of your belongings. Give yourself credit for this.

You (and the rest of us) will learn a lot from this unfortunate episode. We were all reminded that swarming attacks are unpredictable, so we travellers must prepare a defense in kind, and act unpredictably. Like soccer players, say, we must only appear to be kicking the ball (in this case, ourselves) in one direction, when we in fact intend to go another. As in soccer, it doesn't always work, but we travellers can only do what we can.

rotaka, I am appalled by what the nurse said to you. To remark on anything but the treatment of your medical condition was very unprofessional. As you speak Italian, I hope you'll write a letter to the hospital in question, thanking those that did help you --- but point out the staff member who let the rest of them down.

fmpdn, I understand what you say, well, we have travel for many more years all over the world, we have lived in New York, Buenos Aires, and Paris. ( Because of my profession and this was the first time we were robbed like that , ( so to match us you still would have to do ok for at least 15 more years :-) ) I guess you are right, and often we have acted accordingly. Lately we only walk or take taxis, except some buses here and there. And we always take le Metro in Paris mainly because of the bad weather
but I prefer the buses or walking.
Definetly that day in Madrid we were totally off guard, totally in the moon,... Why? I guess because ...we are human and were having a great time and looking forward to meet some friends for lunch.
As someone said from New York, we also felt kind of invinsible , and that day we were mentally in the MOON. I pledge guilty of negligence.
Of course we were targeted, for one we were well dressed
but so many persons are well dressed in Madrid.
We are not that young anymore and that might also help, and because it had to happen.
Your advice is good, although I do not know is it possible to keep up with such intense defense tactics ....
I guess one lesson I personally learnt is that Europe is changing faster than I thought.
I also learnt that we could have been attacked any where , and that they work in groups, larger than before.

Unfortunately, being mugged, robbed, pickpocketed in major cities (and not such big cities) on major subway lines and at tourist destinations is pretty common. It's a matter of opportunity.

Graziella,
I'm so sorry to hear you were mugged. That surely must have put a damper on your trip. Thanks for letting us know to be aware in Madrid.

Sandy

Graziella5b, we are older than you think or perhaps we implied -- mid 60s. Your are right the London of today is a lot difference than it was when we first visited in 70. I don't remember then about being overly concerned about security. But then I don't remember things as well as I did then either. I don't view my actions as that intensive just a lot of little things that, as I said earlier, are habit. I do have a couple advantages. At 6-2 I can see over the crowd better than most and in an earlier life had considerable training with an agency that implanted a third eye in the back of my head. It is handy but I fully expect to be hit someday. So I hope it is not too painful.

fmpden. With all my heart I hope you will not be hit
However it is true that we have been many more years traveling around in Europe, may be we started younger.
Your third eye surely comes handy, LOL , your whole attitude is the right one.
As Sue points out the only thing we can give us credit this time is to have lost a few things.
The important thing is we had a great trip both in Italy and Spain.

Hi Sue,

>Ira, when someone has been violated, it is perhaps not the best time to discuss the fine points of whether such violation is better described by this or that term.<

You might have noted that I did express my concern.

The reason for the more precise term is that I have perceived a rising concern among posters (not just here) about petty theft in Europe.

A mugging (force and violence) is a far more serious event than being pickpocketed.

I am glad the the OP wasn't mugged.

((I))

People do use terms in different ways. When I read the subject heading "Mugged in Madrid", I did picture a different kind of event from the one that Graziella evidently had, and I was relieved to read her description of the event.

A few years ago, my husband was subjected to a similar event getting on the Circumvesuviana at the Naples train station. We were getting on the train and I found myself separated from him by a crowd of well dressed men in their thirties, I'd say. There was a lot of commotion which prevented me from getting through the door and onto the train. Then everyone suddenly disappeared, I got on the train, and my husband discovered his wallet was gone as the train pulled away.

I have thought of this and described it as a pickpocketing rather than as a mugging. But evidently there are many who use the word mugging differently than I do, since many people responding to this thread are using it as well. What is important is that there is a description of what happened so that we all know what to look out for, and also so that those of us who think of a mugging as a more violent event know that nobody was physically harmed.

I'm sorry for what happened to you, Graziella, and to the other posters and their friends who've had problems.

But I maintain it is the same in any big city - I've been robbed/mugged in London, Barcelona and New York; and having lived in big cities all my adult life, I think I'm as alert as I can be. I did at least manage to hang on to my bag in Barcelona !

I would also refer to being robbed in a public place but without being injured as mugging, as I think is the norm in Britain.

Curious to know where you were going to and from on the underground, though, Graziella - we spent 3 days in Madrid last year and found it so compact we never used the underground or any other transport, other than from and to the airport.

"But evidently there are many who use the word mugging differently than I do, since many people responding to this thread are using it as well. What is important is that there is a description of what happened so that we all know what to look out for, and also so that those of us who think of a mugging as a more violent event know that nobody was physically harmed."

Thank you, Nikki.

ira, speaking of expressions, there is one that goes "first things first" which reflects a common belief that priority is indicated by order. Now, you stated, first, your concern for semantics; then your concern for the poster. I appreciate that you had sincere intentions, but on the other hand, you have also indicated a desire for accurate expression. So, by not choosing your order carefully, you did risk leaving the impression that your priorities didn't favour the poster's well-being.

Mugging/muggers have quite a few meanings. (In Newfoundland, for example, it is still the case that 'muggers' can as often mean theatrical performers or buskers, as robbers.)

With respect to the term as used in connection with violence, the OED suggests it had its origins in boxing/fist-fighting:

2. pugilism - to strike in the face.

Yet surely nobody here would maintain that if someone was threatened in the belly region with a knife, say, as opposed to being struck in the face with fists, they weren't mugged.

Finally, in the supplement to the OED, there is a meaning given as 'huddled together or confined.' Given that Graziella was indeed confined by other people, by this version she was indeed 'mugged.'

Okay, I'm done, William Safire can have his job back now.

Hi Caroline, glad you asked where we were mugged... .........

This is sometime I wish to stress because to my knowledge it is not a tourist spot at all.
We intended to take the subway at Plaza Alonso Martinez, this is a few blocks west of Paseo de la Castellana, West of plush Barrio Salamanca, or may be it is in Barrio Salamanca . I am not sure.
Early that morning we had been NE of that station in the Lazaro Galeano Museum, the line was No. 5, and we planed to take it going South towards the Opera Station.
So, everybody be aware that they are everywhere at any time any day of the week.

Hi Graziella. Ah, so you did get a lot further out of the centre than we did - but you did say you've been several times before so you will have covered more sights than we did in our first trip.

I know what you mean about it happening anywhere - in all cities people may think they are only likely to be robbed at stations heavily frequented by tourists, like Leicester Square in London. But as you say it can happen anywhere and it's not just tourists who are targetted. In London I had my bag snatched on my way home, when I lived in Tottenham, and in New York I was out with resident friends in Alphabet City, so definitely not mainly tourist areas !

Both of those times were at night, though - you must have been even more shocked to have it happen at midday.

But I'm so glad you still think you had a wonderful trip and will go again.

Yes, it is Barrio de Salamanca.

ttt

barrio de salamanca is considered a very chic area.

Before I visited Spain I had heard pickpockets were a problem. I also was in the subway, tired from a long day and not as aware as I should have been. A man fell in step right behind me in the stairwell and tried to take my wallet out of my purse but he failed and ran away. I was lucky and learned a lesson, always be aware. A day or so later another man tried the same and I turned and faced him confrontationally and he also ran away.
Just keep your guard about you and I think you're alright. But your experience sounds like a forced robbery with threats of violence?

Alonso Martinez is not a bad spot at all. But on Sundays, some stations are very lonesome, and instead of pickpocketing (which can happen anyplace), they may act more rudely. Never hesitate to shout Police, or help.

What are the Spanish words for thief, pickpocket, mugger?

What happens when you yell them in a crowded subway?