rkkwan

I welcome your comments and criticism, but may I point out I was attempting to address two separate issues simultaneously - a) can a lay person book a single itinerary as opposed to a 'travel professional' and b) what sort of things can a lay person do to minimize difficulties in the event connections are missed. It also rather depends on what exactly is meant by 'linking' the various segments, and it is possible I did make some unarticulated assumptions.

Re 'linking' baggage transfer: Yes, you can often arrange to have baggage interlined between non-affiliated airlines *that have such an agreement, in place - many discount airlines will not be 'linked' in such fashion.* For that matter, many discount airlines won't even interline baggage between their own flights - Ryanair does not, for example.

And yes, you can book tickets on one itinerary with non-affiliated airlines. (Expedia will do this all the time, and I made it clear in my answer that this was a possibility.) But I'm sticking to my guns to suggest that as a rule (yeah, all rules have exceptions) using partnered airlines when using a single itinerary is preferable, at least from the ease of rebooking point of view. But either way, if the airline in question isn't going to cooperate (as it obviously didn't for Ann41) it wouldn't matter a bean whether oneself or a 'travel professional' booked the itinerary in question.

I would have thought the alliance thing meant something, also -- maybe not for paying for a hotel, but getting you on the next plane. I always book my own tickets through online travel agencies or through one airline, and it's easy to do yourself, you don't need an agent to do that--even with connections that involve different airlines. Every time I have been delayed due to weather, and missed a connecting flight, it was no cost and no problem because I made sure to have a connecting flight that was the same airline (usually a codeshare). A travel agent might be sure to do that for a customer who didn't know about the problems, but not necessarily.

It seems to me there is no problem here in terms of law or obligations-- the OP bought a restricted ticket with limited or no changes in order to get a low price, and then doesn't like it when they wanted to make changes to it and go on a different flight. That's too bad, but it's a risk someone takes when they decide to buy the cheapest tickets and buy on a lot of different unrelated airlines and on different tickets. I don't know if other airlines would have done anything differently than Air France, but I'm sure the other price was just the going price for last minute tickets.

This is really no different than if someone showed up late for a flight due to a flat tire, had a car breakdown, or because the train or bus they were on was late or because they overslept. Basically, however you got to the airport is not relevant, you missed your flight and had a nonrefundable ticket, apparently. I guess it would be nice if airlines felt sorry for people because of weather problems and gave them discounted tickets on new flights, but wouldn't expect it. Given the amount of money involved, I think that would have been a nice gesture, and might write in that tone of voice, sort of begging, not with this attitude that you are going to hire a lawyer, etc (why a lawyer would take this case, I can't imagine but to charge by the hour for a consultation).

I don't think this was a connection time issue at all; I wouldn't want to plan every flight with a 6 hour connection time because of possible weather problems--I just make sure to book on the same airline.

This may be inane and an example of why you shouldn't talk when you have nothing to say, but, nevertheless, this thread has been a real education for me!

$65000 isn't chickenfeed; I'm sorry, Blithespirit.

I seem to have read that American Airlines, at least, has or used to have a "flat tire" rule to cover such instances. United has free same-day standby that might have alleviated this, although I don't know. I suggested posting in TravelBuzz on Flyertalk earlier, but I'd also suggest the Air France forum.

6 hours was only said by blithespirit (I'm guessing in disagreement or sarcastically) when I suggested 3 hours was a bit tight at JFK for this number of people using various airlines.

Any chance you have travel insurance either through work or possibly through the credit card you used to purchase the tickets?

Again, airline alliance has absolutely nothing to do with connections or what happen if one misses a connection. If a plane is delayed because of weather or things outside the control of the airline, and one has to spend a night somewhere, the traveler has always have to pay for the hotel. Even <b>on the same airline.</b>

As for the OP, it's a very slippery slopes for the airline if they were to start making &quot;allowance&quot; for people not getting to the flight. How about a car accident on the freeway leading to the airport? The passengers' baby getting a fever? And who's to decide -the ticket counter agent, a mid-level manager or the CEO?

Again, one should understand the limitation of discount fare tickets. You may not think a $1,000 fare to Europe is discount, but in the price structure it is.

The $6500 figure is shocking, but also a little misleading, as there were 6 people involved, so the charge was about $1100 each, which is not bad for a walk-up round trip ticket.

Perhaps its too late to do anything, but I think many airlines have conditions where a non-refundable ticket can be altered (at a healthy penalty) even for a while after the initial flight has left. In other words, at some airlines, if you miss your flight, you can ask them to change your flight to another, or even issue you a voucher for future travel.

My suggestion would be that you read the contract of carriage that is a part of every ticket; if Air France is one of those airlines that allows changes of tickets even after the flight has left, ask why you were not given that option. Also, even if the ticket has to be amended before the flight leaves, ask why you were not given that option when you were there before the flight left (they may have wiggle room on this one since the leaving time is often designated as the time, prior to departure, when they stop boarding.

Good luck.

Actually, Clevelandandbrown, it's $2000 pp RT, not $1100. I'd already paid $5,580 for 6 tickets - Air France gave me credit for the non-tax/fees portion of that charge and added another $6,504 on top of that. In other words, because I was taxed on both transactions making the fare $2000 RT pp.

And I understand, RRKWAN and Christina, how difficult (slippery slope) it is for agents to determine the factors in accomodating late passengers. But on that particular day over 40-50 flights (maybe more) were held up by weather, the airlines knew of the chaos on the ground. Shouldn't the airlines cut some sort of slack? I wasn't trying to get something for free.

Hypothetically, what happens to travellers who are delayed and miss their flights at an airport when the airport shuts down due to some security breach as they've done at LAX and Boston? Do the airlines show some sort of sympathy or just charge them double in order to go on with their flights?

True story: my sister-in-law's flight on SW Airline was delayed by several hours. SW gave her and her friend vouchers for $500.00. Then, after some sly thoughts, she went to the counter and asked/begged for a hotel voucher. They gave it to her.

Giselle, Was your sister's flight delayed because of mechanical difficulties with the plane or something similar? I ask because weather &amp; &quot;acts of god&quot; are a different category and carriers are not responsible for these delays. Delays due to planes unable to fly for technical difficulty are the responsibility of the airline, and that's usually when they are dishing out credits, meal and hotel vouchers, etc.

Duh, actually I have no idea. However, thank you for clearing up the difference between these two situations. I'm learning!

biggest mistake of all.....flying Air France....they are a mess in every way

Giselle~ I just didn't want blithespirit to feel any worse about all this, thinking people were getting perks and refunds right &amp; left ~LOL

Why all this focus on air France ?
Actually it is the other airline - JetBlue or United -which did not land and time and failed to fulfill the contracted service.
Either THEY should pay, or it is the customer's responsability -and bad luck- , but certainly not Air France.

I truly understand there are limits to Jet Blue, United, and Air France fulfilling contractual agreements. None of the airlines can be held responsible for circumstances related to weather. A flight is delayed because of weather conditions and we all accept that. But why do some airlines take such a weather-related delay as an opportunity to gouge passengers? I didn't oversleep, get drunk in the airport lounge, miss my freeway exit, take too long to pack or use some lame excuse. I'm only annoyed with Air France for unconscionably taking advantage of the situation and then rubbing my nose in it by saying the agent was kind not to penalize me an additonal $1200.

Here's a key point that the OP says in his last post... AF actually gave them credit for the unused tickets! What else do you want them to do? They are a business to make money, period; and not a charity.

So, it's not like you lost all value on your original tickets, and call youself lucky. Otherwise, you'll be out another $5-6,000; though in that case, you can choose other airlines and don't have to set foot on another AF plane, ever.

I don;t know about Italy but Airfrance has non-stop flights to Paris from LAX. I would rather pay a little extra and not have worry about flight delays especially with all the secutity. We once landed in Houston and had to get our luggage to through customs go through security and nearly missed our flight to LA. Since then I only book non-stop when possible.

I can understand being upset, but it isn't really accurate to say that Air France took advantage of the weather to gouge customers. If they'd hiked up the price for the flight you took beyond what it would have otherwise cost, that would have been gouging. But apparently the ticket price was exactly what it would have been for any walk-up customer, with or without the weather delays. And, as has been said many times, they had the legal right to charge you that price and that's the risk of a nonrefundable ticket.

Sorry Blithespirit, in my analysis of the situation I relied on your original posting, where you said &quot;Air France said that our 6 RT tickets to Italy were no longer valid. The agent said we could continue on if we purchased new tickets at day-of-departure prices(!) -- which meant an EXTRA $6500 -- besides the $5580 I'd already paid for the tickets!&quot;

When you described your original tickets as no longer valid and you bought new tickets for an EXTRA $6500 that seemed to say that the cost for the new tickets was $6500, which is actually a little less than $1100 each, which doesn't seem to be such an extreme cost when Air France was in no way responsible for your having missed the flight. It has been traditional in the airline industry to have very high costs for last-minute tickets, perhaps because its usually business travelers who buy them and pass the costs on to their customers. For instance, the least expensive ticket today for a flight Thursday 8 October, round trip New York to Paris is something like $2050; Italy would probably cost more, and you got it for, according to your latest revelations, less, without even being charged the penalty you had agreed to when you bought your original tickets. I think Air France treated you very fairly.

Although I can understand the disappointment in having to pay more money than planned, I do not think anyone &quot;gouged&quot; anyone. I am willing to bet if you read all that fine fine print that comes when you purchase airline tickets, that this was handled to the letter. Accept that they probably *could* have tacked on that additional $200 per ticket change fee mentioned, but not applied.

No, airlines cannot &quot;cut some kind of slack&quot; when there are weather delays. They are GRADED on ontime performance and it is VERY important. IF they can leave on time, then they do it. Several years ago I will say we benefitted from them granting some slack. We were leaving from Atlanta for Russia--a group of maybe 30. There was mechanical trouble and we were delayed for an hour or more for new equipment. They did hold the plane in NYC, undoubtedly because there wasn't another flight that could handle that number. We profusely thanked some very scowling onboard passengers when we boarded.

Sheez this is frustrating (this thread) but it is really not that complicated to understand... If it is due to mechanical problems or something the carrier has control over, then it IS the airline's responsbility to remedy the situation at no cost to the ticketholder. If it is due to the weather, &quot;acts of god&quot;, or you not boarding your plane in a timely manner, then is is NOT their responsibility. With weather delays it is my understanding that their obligation is to get you on the next available flight, but for your ticket to remain valid you need to be available and on that flight.

I feel very bad that you had to buy other tickets through no fault of your own. I have sympathy for you, even if others do not. I always think &quot;There but for the grace of god, go I&quot;. Your contribution here is that you have educated me and I will remember to book all my connecting flights on the same airline or together or whatever the correct term is. Anyway thank you.

Yipper, yes I agree &quot;there but for the grace of God go I&quot;. What you want to do is have one ticket from your take off to your final desination. I still think calling the airlines of your choice and having them book you (even if it cost $10.00 or so to do this) is money well spent. Airlines are not making any exceptions anymore thanks to their financial problems.

No, Clevelandandbrown, my final cost to fly RT from NY-Italy was $1834 pp, not $1100.

I thought this thread would die a natural death, but when I checked this AM, I see it is a slow, lingering one.

I originally figured it would cost me $930 pp to fly to Italy - a reasonable summer fare. When I missed my flight in August, Air France charged me $1834 for a new ticket. Given a credit of $750 for the old ticket, I paid an additional $1100. I ate the $180 tax on the old ticket and was additional tax was included in the new. Whatever...

I apologize to Flyboy. Your grouping me with people who &quot;will choose a very low frequency carrier with very thin customer service capabilities (often simply contracted out) because they got a really cheap ticket&quot; seemed to imply that cheapness had its own rewards. However, I wouldn't consider Jet Blue in the above category. Personallly I think they are state-of-the-art in the airline industry, though the major carriers won't admit it.

And I'm sorry, NatalieM, for the way my situation seemed to take over your legitimate inquiry about discount fares. Just don't do what I naively and ignorantly did -- buy separate tickets and think 3 hours is enough to make a connection and think the airlines will give you any kind of break. Silly me...

Over and out... Blithespirit.

This not only happens when a connecting flight is missed - in one case, a neighbor had to change flights due to her father's death. they had direct flights to Honolulu to see the father-in-law and ended up routing via Omaha due to the death/funeral. Not only did they end up with 2 or 3 stops, extreme number of searches (just after 9-11) with the last minute changes, but they also got docked the full fare from the rerouted tickets. American was sympathetic to the situation but not willing to be flexible. Guess bereavement fares dont' count if you already have tickets booked elsewhere!

Blithespirit:

SO sorry that this happened...I try my best to fly out of Oakland too.

Would it have been possible to fly the following day at a reduced cost?

I know you signed out so maybe some of the contributors to this thread who know waaay more than I do about this can respond.

I have seriously learned alot from this thread. Thanks to all who responded.

The thread on discount airlines blithespirit mentioned can be found at
http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34533383

As I said on that thread, I really am grateful to blithespirit for raising this issue. Had she not, I would never have re-examined my belief that booking a through ticket with airlines belonging to the same alliance provides any benefits over and above booking a through ticket irrespective of alliances. I too am learning all the time.

So I am somewhat hesitant to attempt an answer to your question, Oaktown, but here goes:

To the extent that I understand how airlines set their prices, the probability of booking a relatively cheaper ticket increases with the sample size of flights one is willing to consider booking. Thus, the further into the future one is willing to consider departing, the more likely one will find a flight on which seats in lower category fares will still be available. Here's the hard part: this is only a matter of probability. Should a consumer be willing to depart the next day, as per your query, this would of course increase the sample size of possible flights, but only slightly. However, just because an event has a higher probability of happening, doesn't mean that that event will happen. Just as leaving a long connection time between flights decreases one's probability of missing the next flight, but doesn't guarantee one won't miss it.

So, the short answer to your question is, 'maybe' - which doesn't help much, I admit.


Regarding connection times, this seems as good a time as any to point out that they aren't guaranteed because schedules can change. If one or more of the airlines involved changes their schedule to the point one couldn't make the connection originally planned, the itinerary would have to be altered; only in the event that one held a through ticket originally could one do this without charge. Whereas consumers who bought two tickets could be out of luck.

Last time out, we booked an itinerary on two separate tickets. I had no sooner booked the tickets, then BA moved up their departure from LGW to Venice by 2 hours. As we were overnighting in Gatwick, this change didn't cause us any difficulty. But had we left a 'window' of only 3 hours, this window would have shrunk to 1 hour. (It could, of course, have gone the other way - the schedule could have been moved BACK by 2 hours, thereby increasing the connection time window. The point is, since schedules can change, connection times aren't guaranteed, and this is another hazard to be navigated if you choose to book on two separate tickets.

I came to this thread a bit late and I've not read the responses very carefully. I also had to buy a new ticket once, also with AF, and I was out about $300. It's not as bad as your $6500, but I certainly sympathize with you.

In my case, it wasn't a connection. I arrived too late in CDG for a flight for Berlin last year. Checkin had closed. After a couple of run-arounds, it appeared to me that they could have done something, but they chose to do nothing. I had no bags to check at all, and they refused to issue a boarding card, claiming that I had to check in 30 minutes prior. I can tell you that this is not true, as on my return flight from Berlin to Paris, they were still checking passengers in way past 30 minutes before departure.

Yes, of course, I also wrote them when I came back, but to no avail.

I try to avoid AF from now on. I understand that they're not a charity, but they seem to be especially inflexible. Of course, the trouble with air travel is that the airlines are basically all interchangeable, so it's impossible to blacklist everyone. Delta seemed very incompetent on my flight from NYC to Frankfurt as well -- I've not flown them in many years. They really seemed to have hit the dumps.

Sue:

You ROCK! Thanks...Sure,I thought that &quot;might&quot; be the case...laugh!

You are very well spoken. I wish my post-graduate school statistics professor would have been YOU!

That aside and for a little Monday Morning Quarterbacking...I would have calculated those next day...or day after &quot;cheaper&quot; flight &quot;odds&quot;, enjoyed NYC for a day or two...storm and all and then went abroad with more money on my credit card!

Again...I am SO sad that this happened..

I think Blithespirit is a male...I assumed Blithespirit to be male cause...NOBODY's husband would let them spend that kind of money...on the spot...after all that airport drama... and be &quot;Happy Tourist Walking&quot;.

My husband would have had us on the Amtrack or Greyhound back to California.

OaktownTraveler. If I remember the original post, blithespirit is a widow. She took her family with her for the trip. Somewhere in one of her postings she commented something to the effect &quot;where was her late husband when they needed him&quot;. I do not know which thread this was written on but I do remember reading this and cringing for her.

When Blithe was talking about slack, I got the impression she was talking about the charges and not anything affecting departure time.

And I'm sure this will upset all the sticklers and I know all the rules, but I think Air France should have offered some options such as the chance to buy those tickets or take a chance on stand-by with a lesser penalty.

If they had seats available on the later flight, why not just charge a nominal penalty and let them go?

If I were BlitheS, I'd never fly AF again -- and after reading this post, I'll weigh this when I look at my next flight over and have AF as an option.

We had a somewhat similar situation last month.

I'd flown Virgin to LHR and connected on Alitalia to Athens for a month over the Olympics. I was looking for an economical way to get my wife and son to Athens for the last week of the Games and 10 days in the island with a quick stop in London on the way back. My fare didn't matter that much (it was still $960 RT during peak time) because it was on the company (most paid about 1,400 from IAD), but I first found a $290 LHR to ATH trip and then much later paired it with a $277 IAD-LHR for my wife and son.

The downside on the way over was that I built in a six-hour window for them at LHR when a two-hour break would have worked.

The problem came on the return. Ferries in the Cyclades were suspended by wind for nearly two days. Instead of arriving Monday night for a Tuesday a.m. flight to LHR we finally took a full ferry that got in at 5 a.m. Wednesday.

Alitalia got us on a nearly full 6:45 a.m. flight to Milan and onto to LHR. There were no adjustments in fares and no hassles or begging involved. We missed our day and night in London, but easily made our mid-afternoon connections home.

So we've got good feelings about the oft-maligned Alitalia and I'm still wondering what Virgin (my flight) and United (family's flight) would have done out of LHR. I'm glad I didn't have to find out.

First, Blithespirit, if you're still reading - sorry for your bad luck in getting to JFK in time to complete the contract. The $6500 makes me grimace every time I read it.

Maybe I can learn something here too. Sue, you said that you learned that there was no advantage to the Alliance system (I read the other thread too). And I guess there isn't, from the perspective of getting more or less consideration for connections or baggage from a AA to BA ticket than from a AA to CO one. A single ticket is a single ticket.

So is/was that the only advantage to these big marketing alliances? It always seemed to me that the codeshares, FF program interaction on these codeshares and such were suppose to add some value. Anything to that, really? I mean, in reality.

There are real benefits of the alliances to the consumer. One, people can spend their FF miles on all the partners airlines with a much wider scope than before there were alliances. [Though earning the miles is a different story, as many deep discount fares won't earn your any miles on many partners' FF programs.]

Another is the benefit of &quot;elite&quot; members. They can use the first/business/elite check-in lines of most of the alliance's airlines. Similarly, airport lounge members can use the lounges of partner airlines.

As you can see, these benefits are mostly for those who fly a lot. For those who fly infrequently and who usually have too few miles to claim, there are few benefits.

As a follow-up, I thought you might be interested in an e-mail reply I received today from expedia.com with whom I originally booked my Air France NY-Italy tickets. I inquired because I'd re-read their Rules and Regulations regarding tickets - &quot;Published airfare tickets are nonrefundable but may, depending on the individual airline's rules and regulations applicable to that airfare, be used for travel by the original ticket holder on the same airline at a later date, subject to an airline change fee of at least $100 per person.&quot; -- This was the notion I falsely believed.


&quot;We are sorry to hear that you have experinced such inconvenience during your trip. I would like to explain though that what Air France has offered you was an option basically to use the credit for that segment of your trip rather than just losing the value of the money you paid for in that specific flight. However your flight was an international flight so any change that you make on the original set of ticket since it was processed at the counter is subject to a $200 change fee plus any increase in the fare for that new flight. Apparently one possible reason also for such increase in fare was the ticket for that next flight leaving was also processed on the day itself which even makes the price of the ticket more expensive.

I understand this was something that was beyond your control that your first flight was delayed due to weather conditions but apparently airlines had you on a flight which was leaving at a time when it was already safe to fly for safety of passengers which gave you not enough time to catch the next flight out. Apparently you were also given an option as a courtesy by the airline because they had you on the next flight out and just gave you credit for that flight which was applied to that new flight because normally with Air France they do not allow changes on the outbound flight.&quot;

Whatever...

I enjoyed Repete's sweet post, &quot;If they had seats available on the later flight, why not just charge a nominal penalty and let them go?&quot; Thanks, Repete.

Blithespirit:

I also thank you for for the education that I was provided by this thread. I am flying on a FF ticket to Italy, but have to arrange my own transport to and from Croatia, as that is my true destination (but my carrier does not go there). I will not book the flight to or from Croatia on the same day I arrive/ leave from Rome only because I just learned so much right here in this thread. I am sorry for your terrible experience, but I appreciate the time that you and other posters have taken to explain some of the finer points of travel today.

I recently read an account of a similar story on Flyertalk. The company controller had purchased the poster a two-ticket itinerary with the second ticket on Air France because it would save so much money, but did not leave enough time to make the connection. The person then had to buy a same-day, full-fare ticket for 1400 pounds (and no credit from the sounds of it). The fortunate thing in that case was that his company had to pay.

United is perhaps the best airline for this sort of thing to happen with, from what I can understand, because of their same-day standby policy with no charge.

I haven't read every reply to this thread so it may have been mentioned already - but my first reaction when I read this was &quot;Oh to have a spare $6,500 to use in this kind of situation!&quot;

Thank you all...
It has been interesting reading the various threads on this post the last few days. While some have been very supportive, others have written correctly that the problem was of my own making - sorry to have been so excruciatingly dense. &quot;80 posts and she still doesn't get it.&quot; &quot;what part don't you understand?&quot; Yea, well... It's just that the fine print is getting harder to read these days. And with all those beautiful smiles and &quot;thank you for flying with us&quot; and &quot;we treasure your business&quot; platitudes, I thought the airlines would try to be as helpful as they could. To Air France's credit, they did allow us to continue on our vacation with only a loss of 2 hours.

I acknowledge my former lack of understanding regarding fee structure and airline responsibility - I have learned a lot reading these posts - particularly the critical ones.

For what it's worth, I wasn't trying to be cheap as so many posters accused. I merely wanted to fly out of a more convenient airport and without adding any more connections to my destination. You might find it interesting that the cost of my flight to Italy using Jet Blue to NY actually cost MORE than flying a one ticket itinerary from San Francisco to Italy. So, no, I wasn't trying to be cheap, just trying to avoid the San Francisco airport.

Apparently a lot of fodorites were in the dark about this one ticket thing, though, so I don't feel as bad, and perhaps as LoveItaly wrote, the good that may come of this is that this post has helped others. I'm not a &quot;frequent flyer,&quot; but I've traveled quite a bit, usually booking my own stuff on the Internet.

In my many years of traveling, I've only missed 1 flight - when I returned back home for a left-behind suitcase that contained medication, while my husband flew on to Hawaii with the kids. In that situation, Southwest put me on the next flight from Oakland to Los Angeles at no extra charge. I still missed the Hawaii flight out of Los Angeles, but I stayed overnight in Los Angeles using a voucher I didn't even ask for and flew on to Hawaii the next day after paying a $100 fee.

To quote John Wayne, &quot;Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid.&quot; I guess with this experience, I'm learning more about my limitations.

I DO understand that my 6 tickets were non-tranferable and non-refundable -- how ignorant I was to think that meant I couldn't give them over to &quot;Aunt Millie&quot; and that I couldn't get my money back if I changed my mind about the trip. Now I know they're often unchangeable, too - even with a change fee.

Never did I ever think I would have to buy new tickets at double the price to replace the old. I guess my concept of service needs to be adjusted.

And yes, oaktown, my first thought WAS to retreat home using Greyhound or Amtrak - I mean, geez, $6500 could buy a used car! but I knew we all needed this vacation after a rough couple of years and besides I'd already paid for my hotels abroad.

You're all very kind to hear me out.
Bon Voyage!
(Ms.) Blithespirit