Dee dee (your trip)
 

Sounds wonderful! Looking forward to hearing about how it went. I'm a big fan of Venice but never been to Naples. Also would like to see the almafi coast.


Lynn

Deedee, it took about 12 (24?) hours for Naples to really grab me, but once it did...loved it. We arrived straight from the countryside, so Naples was like a bracing slap to the face! Woke me up for sure. :D

Yes, definitely intriguing. If we could only figure out the why. I also scratch my head when visiting a place I loved the first time but the second time just doesn't measure up to the memories.

I'm a fan of Tuscany and north, but I've never been south of Rome. So, this will be interesting. I too have never been to the Amalfi Coast but have been to the Cinque Terre 3 times and loved it. I do wonder how they will compare and contrast. BTW, I've also got 5 nights in Capri too!

LOL! I will give it at least 24 hours before rendering an opinion. At my age, I'll fall in love with anything that grabs me!

Barcelona is the prominent example for me - have been 3 times - like it but don't love it as so many others apparently do.

lol.

I would say that Naples is quintessential Italy. It's the home of pizza, the Commedia dell'Arte (Harlequin, Pulcinella, Pierrot, et. al.), the mandolin, the tombola (a bingo-like game played all over Italy, especially around Christmas), and the Neapolitan songs. What do the gondoliers in Venice sing? Neapolitan songs!

I've never met any Italian who would say Naples isn't part of Italy!

What on earth kind of business were you engaged in?

Venice and Milan are so different that it's not easy to compare them.

Venice is so beautiful, it's magical, everyone should see Venice at least once in their lives. There's no city like Venice in the world. I don't feel compelled to return to Venice often. It's not only crowded much of the year (and with miserable weather frequently when it's not crowded). It's also overpriced and there is a tendency to treat badly anyone who doesn't have a Venetian accent.

If you go to Venice, you should go in the less-crowded months, stay for a night or two, and get off the overly-beaten tourist trail.

Milan is an entirely different city, vibrant, worldly, innovative, and sophisticated. In some ways, including its trams, it reminds me of some Northern European cities. For music and art, it has no peers in Italy. (I know, I know, Florence has the world's greatest concentration of Italian Renaissance art, but in Milan you can see art from all times and places.) The Brera Gallery is a jewel, for example, and the Palazzo Reale (pre-Covid) usually had three fantastic exhibits going on at once. Right now, they have an exhibit of Margaret Bourke-White's work and life, but the Palazzo is closed until further notice, although it should be re-opening very soon. In the past, we've seen exhibits of Van Gogh, Chagall, and many others. The Scala, of course, has world class music of all sorts, and not just opera. We attended a concert by the famous pianist Daniel Barenboim one year at La Scala.

In the past ten years, Milan has had a sort of Renaissance, especially in architecture and city planning. It's worth going again if the last time you saw it was more than ten years ago.

Milan also has some of Italy's (and the world's) oldest churches and basilicas. The Basilica of Sant'Ambrogio (Saint Ambrose) and the Basilica of San Lorenzo (Saint Lawrence) date from late Roman times, although most of what you can see now is only about 1000 years old. (San Lorenzo has more early features conserved in its interior.)

Many people don't know that Milan has an enormous well-preserved medieval castle right in the center of town, the Castello Sforzesco. There are several museums inside the castle, with rotating exhibits. The castle and its museums have re-opened this month.

Milan even has it's own canal zone, the Naviglio Grande, where there are lots of trendy bars and restaurants, and where you can take a boat ride. In the summer, they have combination boat-bike tours on the canal. (We've never done it, but it sounds like fun.)

The atmospere in Milan around Christmas time is magical. The Feast of Sant'Ambrogio, December 7th, is a municipal holiday, and the Feast of the Immaculate Conception, December 8th, is a national holiday. There are all sorts of events in Milan for these holidays, including a big fair called Obey, Obey. (Nothing to do with obedience; it's Milanese dialect for (O bello! o bello!) and indeed for the whole Christmas season. We saw just a tiny part of the fair, because it's not really our cup of tea. There's also usually a fair of artisanal works from all over the world in December. Friends of ours used to go every year for that.

Throughout the Christnas season, they have trams decorated with Christmas lights, and musicians playing traditional Italian instruments and singing old Italian Christmas songs in the Piazza del Duomo. There are special concerts and art exhibits. Usually there is a free exhibit of a really major work of art in the Palazzo Marino, across from the Scala. For example, one year they had Leonardo da Vinci's John the Baptist, on loan from the Louvre. There is usually a long line for this free exhibit, but it's worth it. Another year, on the day of the Feast of Sant'Ambrogio, we were able to see the Last Supper free and without a reservation. I don't know it they do this every year, but otherwise it's very difficult to get a reservation for the Last Supper unless you buy an expensive all-day tour of the city. We lined up very early in the morning, but we only had to wait a little over half an hour to get in.

Before we got locked down, we usually went to Milan at least once a year, and I really miss Milan.

❤ Venice.

Thin,aristocrat 🦌

Dee Dee
 

Whst is Cinqe Terre like and the other one you mentioned?


Lynn

Mass tourism has spoiled some great destinations for me... Places I first visited and loved decades ago are less appealing with each subsequent visit. Suffocating crowds, traffic, the fact that so many locals speak English (including slang), the loss of residential housing in historical centers, all contribute to a feeling that a place has lost its unique identity (at least in my mind). I used to describe myself as a 'city person,' but I purposely avoid spending a lot of time in big cities now. If I've been there before, I'm almost always disappointed by how much it has changed for the worse.

The Cinque Terre is a string of 5 small picturesque villages connected by hiking trails along the coast of the Ligurian Sea. See pictures here: https://www.google.com/search?q=cinq...biw=1366&hl=en

The Amalfi Coast is the dramatic coast in southern Italy. See pictures here: https://www.google.com/search?q=amal...biw=1366&hl=en

I absolutely concur that mass tourism has had a negative impact on the places we visited and loved decades ago (my first trip was exactly 50 years ago!). You are so right about suffocating crowds! I too do more stays away from big cities and more visits in the shoulder and off seasons as well. Still, I'm so very happy to visit 3 to 4 times a year and will continue to do so as long as I can.

The Cinque Terre and Amalfi Coast are very picturesque. But if you visit in high-season summer, all you may remember are the enormous crowds of tourists packed into tiny streets.

We were in CT in May 2017. During the day, lots of tourists in the streets, but in the evening it empties out quite a bit. We stayed in a rental in Manarola, near Trattoria Dal Billy, a bit away from the lower parts closer to the water, so less tourists in the area (except those going to eat at Billy's).. I wanted to visit there while still able to handle lots of stairs and hills! It's well worth seeing...and the sunsets....

So far nobody has posted that they don’t like Venice so I don’t even know why that’s even a question. Every time you see the Grand Canal on a bright sunny day it’s magical.

First time I visited Venice I was staying at a little apartment near Campo San Bartolomeo. The first night I went down to San Marco which was completely empty, dimly lit too. On the way back the vaporetto wasn’t jam packed but there was a guy standing next to me trying to reach into a zippered pocket in my messenger bag.

I just moved away from him but the only thing I had in there was my check book, which I had forgotten to leave back home.

Otherwise I recall stealing WiFi because the place I was staying in didn’t have it — it was just starting to be used. And I liked walking to nearby Strada Nova to find a cafe instead of walking across the Rialto. It was much less crowded on Strada Nova then across the Rialto. Loved one of the museums on the GRand Canal, in the upper floors they had these small windows looking out over the Canal.

I’ve only stayed in Milan once. Probably didn’t see enough of it but didn’t have a good experience leaving for the airport. Got up early to get to the bus stop near the stazione and it was mobbed with people cutting in line. Didn’t make the first bus which arrived and was worried about missing the flight. Didn’t miss the flight but was annoyed the airport was so far away.

The main thing about Milan is that it’s a gateway to more glamorous destinations like the lakes and more charming little towns. On that trip I stayed in Varenna and day tripped to Bergamo, Lugano, which are more appealing places to visit for many people.

I haven’t flown through MXP again since.

Dee Dee
 

Dee dee,

I see what you mean. I would like to explore quaint coastal towns and .maybe some historic sites.

Lynn

scrb11, there is now a train to the airport. It's still a fairly long trip and the train makes other stops, but it's pretty trouble-free.

It sounds as though you haven't been to Milan in at least ten years. I suggest you return, because you might have a better appreciation of the city this time.

I've been to Lake Como and Lake Lugano, and to tell you the truth, I prefer Milan. For me, Lake Como is the gateway to Milan.

Lake Como is the only place in Italy where a waitress asked us if we could please speak English.

I would probably enjoy the Duomo rooftop. I liked the Milan episode on the Stanley Tucci show. I did a lot of the museums years ago and they don't quite have the appeal for me that they used to have but I'd guess I'd visit them.

Milan for me is kind of like Zurich is to the Berner Oberland, an international gateway to other attractions in the region. Though I have spent a day or two in Zurich and Lake Zurich cruise is really nice in the summer, as is certain parts of the city, like along the river on the way to the Lake.


https://www.planetware.com/tourist-a...lan-i-lo-m.htm

If nothing else, I got a better camera for attractions like the Duomo and the Galleria.

I have not been to Milan but yes I have explored Venice like a lost wanderer. I love the city, the panoramic view of St. Mark's Square, Climbing The Campanile Di San Marco Tower, Having a view of Venice from the Rialto Bridge, and taking the Gondola ride through Venice is my best memories I collected from Venice.
I really love the place...

Haven't been to Milan, but I've made several trips to Venice and stayed 5-7 nights each time. I love it, especially in the off season. On our last trip, I mostly just walked around taking photos, and was perfectly happy.

"I've yet to entirely figure out why some places just don't 'speak to me'"

Dee_Dee you raise an interesting question. I guess I am also trying to figure that out as well by asking the question in the OP. I wonder for example for those folks who really enjoy Milan are they used to or have experienced big city life? For those that don't enjoy the hustle and bustle of Milan so much is it because they feel overwhelmed by all the action and traffic within the city and are more accustomed to smaller towns and cities? Or is it just a positive or negative vibe? If so, can you elaborate more? I am sure that personal experiences while visiting are also a huge factor in forming impressions of the place. For instance, on our first full day in Florence we were completely overwhelmed with mass cruise ship passengers overtaking Piazza Signoria so much so if that was our only day in Florence I would have a negative impression of it. However, upon return on a non-cruise ship day we were able to appreciate the art and beauty within the same square.

By the way, we are in the camp who liked Naples. It is a very busy noisy gritty city but the pizza is fantastic! The shopping street with fruit and vegetable stands was great. First time I saw the flowers on a zucchini. It is a vibrant living city not a "tourist city" in the sense that Florence and I imagine Venice has become. The archeological museum is in my opinion not to be missed especially if you tour Pompeii and Herculaneum as well. Enjoy your upcoming trip and please provide a trip report upon your return.

This is a very engaging conversational thread. I am a little surprised by all the rave reviews on Venice especially since it has suffered a lot from over tourism and is not noted for its great cuisine. Many of the restaurant reviews are not favorable. I have read that many restaurants are not owned by local Venetians anymore and that microwaves are often used in many kitchens instead of preparing foods from scratch. Are there any decent restaurants still in Venice? If so where are they? I guess that the negative Venice reviews I have read about stem from the day trippers who probably see nothing but fellow tourists on their journey from the train station to Saint Marks Square and back. As many of you said it is early morning and late afternoon when you seem to enjoy the atmosphere most.

Bvlenci so glad to see that you are posting again and appreciate your local input on the topic. I appreciate everyone's input!

I will add two more locations to the mix here? What are people's impressions of Bologna? What are people's impressions of Turin? Please provide as much detail as possible.

We are debating whether we should use Bologna as a base for Ravenna or see Ravenna as a daytrip from Venice--although that would be a very long daytrip. However, it will eliminate the need to transfer hotels so many times. We can visit Bologna as a daytrip from Verona or vice versa. Verona makes a good base for Vicenza and Mantova but Bologna makes the better base for Ravenna and not so much for the other two.

"I am a little surprised by all the rave reviews on Venice..."

I loved Venice the first time I visited (pre-husband) in the 1970s, so much so that I couldn't wait to return after getting married. When we went together, he (first-timer) loved it and I was a little disappointed with the dirty canals. We went again years later and were both disappointed at the increasing crowds, esp. from cruise ships. Went yet again more recently and decided that would probably be our last visit. It bordered on a theme park experience. But if you've never been to Venice, you must go and you must stay in Venice rather than visit for a day. Whether it's "worth it" is simply not debatable. You can then decide for yourself if you "love" Venice.

As for Bologna... I used to say I loved any Italian city that ended in a vowel. Maybe I've gotten more discerning in my old age, but I don't love Bologna. I still recommend it as there is a lot to see... history, architecture, food markets, the university area, etc., and I've enjoyed our two visits, esp. the food. But it has a bit of a rough edge. It's the only place we've been nearly pickpocketed (twice!), and the only city where we saw police driving around but not walking the streets. I wouldn't try to visit as an excursion from Verona unless you're just checking it off a list. Better to leave Bologna for another trip than try to shoe-horn it into an already busy itinerary.

Ravenna is not a day trip from Venice. It's 3 hours each way by train, which means six hours not spent seeing something more interesting than passing scenery.

Canals were dirty?

Did they clean it up?

We based in Bologna and took a day trip to Ravenna. I agree it is too far from Venice. If one is interested in mosaics, Ravenna might be a better fit as a base. With lunch time closures, visiting times get cut. Ravenna was brighter without all the portico-covered sidewalks. Individual choices, eh?

Canals are very much cleaner now with very little floating trash, but I understand the water is more polluted because of the cruise ships. Venice is the only Italian city where I've seen a rat in broad daylight, and that was on our last visit.

I fully expected to love Venice and regretfully did not. My visit was in 2017 and I think it’s likely that I would have had a different reaction had we met sooner. From my trip report:

“OverallImpressions: I admired Venice’s spirit of reinvention. The Biennale was on when I arrived and the film festival was to begin shortly. For such a heavily touristed city, I was amazed at the high levels of courtesy and helpfulness I encountered everywhere. A bit of good fortune—the cruise ship schedule was light during my stay. In addition to some of the positive experiences mentioned earlier, the scenes of everyday life—the delivery boats, trash collectors, the ambulance boat picking up a resident at the nursing home in the Jewish Ghetto—were fascinating.

In the end, though, I never did fall in love with Venice. Certainly a factor was the lack of a sense of vitality around the Piazza San Marco and the markets near the Rialto Bridge. While at times I enjoyed making my way through the mysterious labyrinthine calli, at other times it was simply wearisome. The bridges alone were not an issue, but I felt the need to be extra careful with the lack of railings in some places. The Piazza, busy but not crazy busy during the day with tourists, reminded me of a dying downtown at night.

All that being said, I’m glad that I went. Venice’s place in art and literature alone would have made the visit worthwhile.”

I’ve come to realize that my favorite destinations share an intensity of experience, a combination of aesthetic, especially visual, and cultural/historical/emotional factors. The sense of Venice’s diminished vitality lingers in my mind.

EuropeanNovice, in case you missed it, a link below to some Venice fotos:
I am done. the sospiri

https://www.fodors.com/community/eur...essay-1690347/

Zebec--Thanks for the link for your gorgeous photos! The reflections on the water wow fantastic!

Jean--Yes I think you never see a place in the same way once you revisit. Sadly the crowds mostly from cruise ships ruin the experience--thousands of people descending all at once onto a square doesn't help to bring back fond memories. Thanks for your feedback on Bologna too.

Bon-Voyage--thanks for your input as well about your thoughts on Venice.

TDudette--If we decide to skip Bologna and head straight to Ravenna for a couple of nights to allow for a full day what is the best way to get there with luggage? It looks like no matter what city you originate you have to transfer from a main line to a regional line? How is the situation with handling luggage on regional trains--there are no storage racks like in the faster trains right? I guess that's why Bologna makes a great base for a daytrip to Ravenna.

europeannovice, others will have to add to this as, except for the Eurostar, hub and I just took whatever train we could get. All had overhead bins and large areas at the end for larger things. We had to schlep our own. Crossing to other tracks usually required steps. Indeed, it's easier to find direct routes from the larger hubs. Can anyone help? Are there red caps? We never noticed as we traveled light and carried our own things.

Venice has a great food scene. It's been taking off for several years (or had been, pre-pandemic--I've no idea what's going on now). You do need to do some research and reserve in advance, though.

My last few trips, I've found the food better in Venice than in Bologna, which seems a bit stodgy and very traditional considering it's a university city.

wrong thread.

TDudette--I think you misunderstood my question--I wasn't asking for luggage assistance like a red cap. However, is there ample storage either overhead or at the end of the rail cars for luggage on regional trains? I know on the faster trains there are luggage racks where you can put a larger bag or store them overhead but not sure what it is like on a regional train?

Scrb11-I think your last comment was meant for a different post?

Zebec, I'm dying to hear details!!

There are various types of regional trains. Some have more space for luggage than others. The trains used on short-distance (mostly commuter) lines have little room for luggage; people just keep it out of the way of other passengers as best they can. The older regional trains have a bit more space.

I've sometimes left luggage at the end of the car, in the area near the exit door. It's not the safest spot, but I've never had anything go missing.

We take the regional train from Bologna to Ravenna; it's taken about 40 minutes. Often we've come from Venice, about an hour and a half to Bologna.

From the train station in Ravenna we initially have taken a taxi, but now that we know the town pretty well we walk to our lodging, about ten minutes. Then it's another 5 minutes to the center of town. We are "carry on" packers but have had no trouble transporting bags on the regional train.

Although I'm biased, as a mosaicist, when I brought my 4 sisters to Ravenna years ago, and when I've gone with my husband while taking mosaic courses there, they all loved the town. The centuries-old mosaics are stunning, but the whole town is involved--street signs, contemporary exhibitions everywhere, planters, and more. Many bars/cafes have Aperitif hour, with an array of snacks to go with a purchased drink (likely no long buffet style with Covid). The passagiata is wonderful. No cars are permitted in the center; it's a bicycle town. (Taxis can drop pax to hotels in the center.).

Ravenna, assuming you stay in or near the antique center, is a lovely town and. scaled down from the much larger Bologna. If you do stay in Bologna, Capello Rosso was a nice place to stay. Watch out for conventions which book up the hotels.

Yo BV, I was kidding. Our late, local Servas coordinator was a lovely Brit senior who once lived in Toronto's Beach neighbourhood. We got along very well with her then. Our subsequent international experience with Servas was mixed, but that had nothing to do with her.

I am done. the kidder

Venice first. Verona second. Milan third. (Of course, if you have time, there are other cities and sites along that route that should also be seen.)

europeannovice, I was born and raised on a farm, moved and worked in many cities (including New York) then after my father's death moved back to the family farm. I'm familiar and comfortable in both big cities and rural life as well. So, I don't think personal life experiences influence why I fall in love with one place and not another. For me it may be the style of living in certain places, the photographic quality, the types of museums and types of historic places on offer. And it's definitely the "vibe" that comes into play. A cafe culture and slower, more appreciative pace of life speaks to me. LOVE Paris, London.... meh. Four winters ago I spent 4 weeks in Paris followed by 3 in London. The difference in the two was night and day for me.

Re Florence, in 2017 I spent a week in Florence in an apartment with terrace and extraordinary view of the Duomo. Despite that view, I too was overwhelmed by the crowds. I couldn't wait to leave and vowed never to go back. Upon reflection, if I'd rented outside the center, I may have had a much better experience.

Re positive reviews of Venice despite it's crowds and poor restaurant scene, is it possible that the more experienced travelers here on Fodors stay in less touristed sestieri which positively impacts their experience? My last visit in 2019, I rented an apartment with balcony NW of the Ghetto on a canal in Cannaregio for 10 nights. As I love to food shop in Europe and love to cook, I visited the morning markets for provisions and made my dinners for half my nights there. The other nights were at lively neighborhood restaurants with very few tourists. This has become my formula for enjoying trips to Europe since retirement. Stay longer in each place, rent an apartment in a local's neighborhood, dine out and dine in, wander and relax.