London with a baby
 

Need help from veteran parent travellers! In a couple of weeks my husband and I are going to London with our 6-week old baby. She is breastfed (no bottles to fool with) and very easy-going- not a screamer, no colic, etc. Would love some advice on how to pace our sightseeing and general survival. Will she need a carseat on the tube? Are there sights that prohibit strollers? Are there items I will have trouble finding (like diapers)? Any advice appreciated!

Hi. We went to London this June with our 2 kids. Our youngest was 19 months. We dragged our stroller everywhere. Museums are fine with a baby as young as yours. She will probably sleep through most of it. I wouldn't recommend going to the tower of London with a stroller. We tried it and almost died trying to take it up the winding, narrow, circular staircases.Try a carrier instead. You won't need a car seat on the tube, but bring a stroller that you can fold easily. There are some stations that have escalators, and they seem to be at an almost 90 degree angle..no fun when you're trying to balance a baby in it! The supermarkets are great. They carry everything you'll need. We shopped at Sainsbury's. Wish there was one where we live. As far as sightseeing, we made a list of the things we wanted to see and do. We didn't plan what day we'd do it..we played it by ear based on weather and our ability to get through jet lag. We found this way we got to do the things we wanted without pressure of needing to be somewhere at a certain time. I must tell you, I've seen some negative things written on this board regarding travel with kids...especially one's as young as our's..but my husband and I knew when we started our family that we couldn't depend on our parents for down time, we both lost our parents when we were young. We made a decision that we wanted to share our life with our children..not sacrifice our life for them. We may have had a more hectic vacation with the kids then we would have without them, but we have memories as a family that no amount of money could buy. We feel proud that we are raising children that know that life doesn't stop at the end of their block. <BR>Please feel free to e-mail me if you have any specific questions. Have a great trip.

Please post the flights you are taking and the hotel you are staying in so that you can spare the rest of us a miserable vacation. London (or anyplace) is no where to take a 6 wk old baby -- and there is no such thing as a no screamer, ALL babies fuss and scream which is a lot less of a problem if it is done in the privacy of your own home, not at 35,000 ft. or in Westminster Abbey, orin a hotel room with thin walls.

Please post the flights you are taking and the hotel you are staying in so that you can spare the rest of us a miserable vacation. London (or anyplace) is no where to take a 6 wk old baby -- and there is no such thing as a no screamer, ALL babies fuss and scream which is a lot less of a problem if it is done in the privacy of your own home, not at 35,000 ft. or in Westminster Abbey, or in a hotel room with thin walls.

I don't hate kids and don't think they should be locked in a closet. But WHY would you want to take a 6 WEEK OLD baby on such a long trip. And before any of you self rightous parents out there get upset (esp. AJ) please explain to me exactly what lessons you can teach a 6 week old baby (cultural, behavioral etc..). If you and your husband must travel take day trips (or longer) in your car where you can set the pace of travel, stops ets... Go to London and all over Europe when your child (or children) are 8 or 10 and you've had a few years to teach them how to behave in public (believe it or not there are many interesting things to see and do right here in the US). Please note I did not say stick 'em in a closet or not to take them in public only that you should teach them how to behave in their early years and then begin Euro. travel. By 8 or 10 when you go to Europe the kid(s) will be able to appreciate it and get something out of it. <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>

Excuse me, but KC asked for advice on taking her child to Europe from veteran parent travellers. She did not ask for commentary from sniveling, whining, self-righteous idiots. The reasons she is taking her baby are no one's business. Unfortunately, I can't help with her situation. So, how about some HELPFUL advice, people?

Excuse me, but she is getting good advise -- leave the traveling till the child is older -- you can have wonderful family memories when the child is old enough to walk & talk and know what he/she is looking at. I do not hate children, nor do I expect "stay home" or Charlie do, but we are aware of the horrors a traveling infant can inflict on other travelors - to say nothing for the people who live and work in London. Would you like to be going to work on the Underground while some tourist who feels their 6 week old must experience a foreign city is smacking you in the ankles with a stroller .. no way! Would you like to be a maid in a hotel and find soiled diapers amongst the trash? I think not. <BR>Would you want to be visiting the Tower of London and have your once in a lifetime visit marred by a baby crying or fussing (or again, having that stroller all over the place). Babies do fuss and cry, that's a given. <BR> <BR>Give the poor child time to grow up and the time to be an infant in the comforts of home - for that matter a toddler is not the age to tour Europe either. Wait till they know where they are at least. <BR> <BR>No everyone finds babies adorable, espiecally if you are in trapped on a plane with a crying infant or trying to get to work and held back by a stoller. People RUSH in the Underground/ I've traveled to Europe many times and trust me, most Europeans do not take infants out traveling. Actually you do not see that many small children (European) out and about in restuarants, etc. perhaps parents in Europe are more resonsible and caring of their fellow man! <BR> <BR>There will be plenty of time to teach your child socialization/travel skills, starting out with smaller trips, perhaps to a zoo, the beach, etc. You work your way up so to speak. It's like starting out in McDonald's and working your way to a 5 star dining establishment. Incidentally, I never noticed much in the way of eating places that would accommodate a baby either. <BR> <BR>You may want to re-think your trip.

I guess I will never understand why people can't see that the locals in London and other places also take there children out with them in public. Do you really think KC's and other tourists' strollers are the only ones you will encounter? Get real. It's just plain idiotic to say that someone who loves foreign travel should go 8-10 years not doing it. I couldn't have done this with our child when she was that age because she cried a lot in the hours before bedtime. Still, by three weeks she slept all night every night for months. Maybe their child does sleep a lot. All are different. <BR> <BR>Anyway KC, I would consider hitting the museums and other quieter places when she is sleeping, realizing that one or both of you may need to go outside if she starts crying. I think staying outside a lot for site-seeing would be great, but with a child this age and the weather in London, this is probably not an option. One of my biggest concerns would be the weather in fact, so make sure to wrap her well. Wish I could give you more advise, but we haven't travelled with our baby yet.

JoAnn and dk - thanks for your help. I think the advice about taking each day as it comes rather than trying to follow a strict itinerary will help. Also glad to know not to bother with the stroller at the Tower of London. We will be bringing a baby sling, so we can use that instead. DK, I'm with you all the way on the game plan for crying - we usually alternate who takes the baby out when she gets fussy. And Ilisa - don't worry about the idiots. I sure don't. I knew when I posted this I'd get some naysayers. But I'd say there are enough gracious folks on this board to make it worth a post. I'll let you know how our trip goes!

KC, I didn't think about this before, but make sure the baby has a bottle or something to suck on during takeoff and landing to minimize the pressure on the ears. Also, ask your pediatrician about Children's Benadryl - it's also wonderful for the ears.

She said the kid was breastfed, so I guess there will be something for it to suck on during takeoffs and landings. Be aware that babies adjust poorly to major time changes, so be prepared for sleepless nights at least the first two. I would not recommend benadryl for a six-week-old, and be aware that at any age, children can have what we call a pradoxical reaction to antihistamines, turning them into raving lunatics for 4-6 hours rather than the zombie you were hoping for as you got on the plane for the 7-hour flight.

This may be a stupid question, but have you considered that health-wise a 6 wk old baby should probably not be traveling? What does your dr. say. I am not implying that London is germ infested by any means, but a small child is certainly susceptible. This child is a little young to have built up any resistance. <BR> <BR>As for someone saying that Londoners, etc. must take their babies outdoors, etc. yes, they do ... but not often into hotels, out to dine, to the theater, etc. I think there is just more respect for others and it is not as widely done as in the U.S. As some one else said I do not think you will find as much in the way of "child friendly" places to eat in Europe as in the U.S. Tables are much closer together too and that fact alone may not endear you to your fellow diner, particularly if the child starts fussing. No everyone enjoys dinner out with someone elses baby, I know we don't and we are not children haters. <BR> <BR>Do I suggest you stay home forever .. no, but I would not go with a 6 wk old baby. Perhaps a trip via car in your home area where you have things more under control would be a wiser decision at this time. If you still want to go to Europe when the baby is a bit older, go by yourselves,but don't take the child until it is old enough to realize what the trip is about. How many of us have any memories of our days in a stroller or crib? How many even remember when they were two or three? I'm sure not many.

Well Anna, that's why I suggested that KC check with her pediatrician about children's benadryl.

So let me get this right, because people think you should not go to London with a 6 week old child, and express this opinion, they are idiots. No where in my message or any of the others that suggested you not take this trip now were you called any derogatory names (typically when someone has a weak argument or reasoning they quikly jump to calling those who disagree with them names). But no one including KC has answered the question as to what the child will get out of this trip (other than it's sleep patterns disruted, potential ear aches from the pressurization of the airplane cabin etc). And yes there are times when parents should put their personal desires aside for what is best for their child, some my even say that to take a 6 week old child to London to go sight seeing is selfish. I know nothing written on this board will change KC's mind and they will go on this trip come hell or high water so I hope your child remains healthy throuout the trip and is able to sleep. Oh yeah, when you child is 15 or so, ask them what they remember from their wonderful trip to London at age 6 weeks, I'm sure they will have great memories and be able to entertain the family with their favorite parts of the trip.

I have lived in London for more than 2 years now. I agree with one or two points. Six weeks is extremely young to take your child away. I suggest that you do not stay in a hotel. Try for self catering accommodation. That way you can eat in more, and also not disturb the people in the room next door. Maybe stay slightly out of London - Chiswick is only half an hour into central London by tube, and has much cleaner, fresher air and a less crowded, rushed atmosphere. <BR>London can be very non-child friendly, and the best restaurants are out of bounds to babies. In self catering accom you can stock up at the supermarket and won't have to survive on greasy fish and chips . The tube is very non child friendly. No car seat is required - sometimes you'll be lucky to get a seat. Do not travel at peak time. When possible leave the stroller behind. Take a front loading baby carrier pack. Thats what most Londoners do. Some stations have steep stairs, and lots of people that are more than happy to push you out of the way if you're making them late for work. Don't stand at the bottom/top of stairways, or in entrance ways. You will be pushed. If you cannot get a seat at peak time don't expect anyone to offer you theirs (despite the signs). They will resent anyone that travels at peak time that doesn't "need" to. Pregnant women and disabled/injured people will get much more consideration. Consider travelling by bus. Buses are child and elderly friendly, as well as being a great way to see London. Try to be considerate to other travellers, and especially London commuters. If you do travel at peak time, do not be shocked at the lack of courtesy with which you will get treated. <BR>Sorry if I seem negative, but I have seen young babies, on packed, hot, smelly tubes - crying, screaming, and in big discomfort.

Do aviod the tube. Buses are good and taxis are great--you just roll the stroller in! No need to take baby out and fold it up as London taxis are a room on wheels. Avoid rush hour though-London has the world's worst traffic. You might find some nice pubs with outdoor seating (we did) to enjoy English beer without the smoke. And London has lots of beautiful parks, perfect for walking a baby. Make sure you leave the room/museum etc whenever baby makes a fuss to spare other visitors and avoid taking baby to the theatre...and I'm sure you will have a great trip.

Check with the pediatrician...I can't believe he/she would encourage this trip. Six weeks is still virtually a newborn. Is this in the best interest of the baby? <BR>

Jo and francesca - Excellent suggestions. Thank you.

It seems that a lot of people are "raising the point" that the baby will not be getting much out of this trip. C'mon guys! Do any of you actually think you're shedding new light on this with that point? I doubt any parent of an infant expects the child to be truly appreciating the foreign experience. The issue here is how the parents can accomplish international travel while travelling with their baby. I am the first to agree that parents should not allow their babies to inconvenience others unnecessarily (like in movie theatres, for example), but I can't beleive how many of you think that babies cause the only mess or disturbance. Of course the maid would rather not find dirty diapers in the trash, but I'm sure she'd also rather not find sanitary napkins, used condoms (not to mention sheets with wet spots), or soiled tissues. Should we bar menstruating women or sexually active couples from Europe too? What about the fact that my "once in a lifetime" visit to the Tower of London was marred by the couple behind me who were bickering and fighting with each other the whole time? Parents need to be considerate of others when their kids cross the line, but we all have a responsibility to realize that we share our planet with people of different ages, races, cultures, sexes, and religions - let's at least try to get along, can't we? KK

KC, I have been a strong advocate of traveling with children and have apparently earned myself a reputation. My youngest child is now 8 years. I no longer have a problem, because my three boys behave better in public than most adults. They are certainly better educated and socially adept than many of the posters on this thread who would opt for baby ghettoes. The fact that I attribute my children's poise to early and extensive contact with the world at large (yes, even those germs that some people fear will hurt your 6 month old), seems to be lost on the naysayers. <BR> <BR>KC. This is a battle that you will never win by arguing. But you can win the war giving your child the broadest possible up-bringing, regardless of the criticism. Good luck.

Make that 6 week old.

I can't help wondering if all the people who think KC hasn't talked this over with her pediatrician aren't also the sorts who love to offer advice on diet and exercise to pregnant women ("I can't believe you're eating/drinking/doing that").

AJ - so nice to have your encouragement. We have travelled a lot with our older two - IMO the only way to teach them to behave in public is to take them in public! I didn't mean to invite such a firestorm by posting - it's just that this is my first trip to London and I wanted to hear from others who have been there with children, in part so that we can avoid any situations that might unduly inconvenience others. So nice to hear a voice of support!

To all the people who say that children aren't out in Europe, I want to know where you've been visiting. We've seen children (even teeny tiny babies) in Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy. If you like to travel and you have kids, it seems obvious to me that you would just take them with you! Life doesn't stop because you have children, and children are definitely part of the population whereever you live. Most parents remove their child immediately when it gets fussy, so in general, I haven't seen many problems with taking them traveling.

I am profoundly disturbed that anyone would defend taking a child anywhere like this. I believe that when you have children, you do not have the right to travel on public transportation. You are just ruining it for everyone else (the public). I agree with Charlie – there are NO good babies!. I just wish the airlines and hotels understood this. <BR> <BR>I think stayhome had the best point. What can you hope to teach a 6 week old baby about Europe that you couldn’t teach them at home? <BR> <BR>Don’t take this wrong, but it is irresponsible people like this who have children and think that their lives just go on as usual that make me SICK! <BR> <BR>Do the right thing and change your mind about the trip. <BR> <BR>Bart S. <BR>

I am profoundly disturbed that anyone who has travelled can have such a closed mind. I am not saying it is a great idea to take a 6-week old to London, but to make statements about not allowing children on public transportation, etc. is to put it simply - ridiculous. Those with children make up a large percentage of the "public" too. Children themselves are part of the public for that matter, and as such, they have rights too. Yes, believe it or not, babies can differ as much as adults. They all cry sometimes, just as all adults moan and complain sometimes; some just do it more than others. It is important to consider your own child's manner, the rights of other "rational" travellers (ie., those who don't dislike being around children regardless of how they are acting), and the well-being of the child. If all those considerations are met, then go...

I am profoundly disturbed at the frequency with with otherwise sensible souls completely lose their senses of humor once the talk turns to parenting. You aren't helping the good fight by missing the jokes. <BR>Think: famous Barts. Bart S. <BR>

Sometimes it is important to take kids overseas. I give the following example. My family lives in Australia and we live in Canada. We have a 6 year old and a 12 month old. We have a trip home planned in November and are taking both kids. My family has been waiting, demanding even to see the "new baby". So of course we are not going to leave him behind. <BR>We know it is an incredibly long flight, and we will be bringing a sack load of toys and games for both kids, plus snacks, drinks etc. We know the baby will cry from time to time and we can only hope to have some understanding neighbours. we have asked for the "Family Area" which I believe is near the back, behind a bulkhead with a bassinet for the baby. <BR>I agree with some of the posters that the baby might not get anything out of the trip, but we think it is important for families to get together. we would have liked to delay the trip until our 12 month old was older but I had some frequent flyer miles expiring this year, and we are not sure when we might get the chance again. <BR>So I ask of all those naysayers, just have a little patience of young families, there might be a very good reason they are travelling on the plane with you (medical treatment, reunions, funerals, emmigrating, work commitments etc) <BR>Oh and one other thing, if your children have tubes in their ears - both of ours do because of reoccurring ear infections - they do not have a problem with changes in cabin pressure, it doesn't bother them a bit.

Every time (and I do mean every time) I have ever flown near a child, my trip has been completely ruined. I was even thrown up on by a child when we went through excessive air turbulence. Completely unacceptable. KC, I am sure your child will have only the most vivid and precious memories of this trip. “Look dear – here’s a picture of me cleaning spit up off of all the other passengers.” Or “here’s one of me changing your diaper in your seat - again.” <BR> <BR>The mere thought of a new mother brazenly breastfeeding her child on a plane makes me shudder. What are other passengers to do in such situations? As a man, I’m not sure whether the proper response is indignation, arousal, or hunger, but I do know that it makes me extremely uncomfortable. <BR> <BR>If you are, as you so proudly claim, “breastfeeding” this child, could you find a wet nurse & leave the baby at home where he/she belongs? <BR> <BR>Bart S. <BR> <BR> <BR>

As a university maintenance employee, I can comment on the viability of transporting babies in public. We have seen numerous times where the mothers not only show no remorse nor apology, but are atypimatic towards those of us that don't travel professionally. If mothers would simply regard views, more lofty than their own, with less indignation than we show them, we may very well have travelling experiences to show for it. Take my advice as a university maintenance employee - don't take your babies anywhere you wouldn't want to see someone else's baby. <BR> <BR>Norb Loncar.

My wife and I are accustomed to seeing babies in public, so my feelings are not from lack of experience. We have found that people usually shy away from babies in public due to feelings of insecurity of how to address the parents. In the cold Northeast US, we try to greet the mother with a "knowing" nod and if it's a father, we simply look with a leaning towards the ordinary. Most of the time, the parents are okay with this. How can you tell me they're not??? Look, if you don't have a kid yourself, don't ask me to sympathize with the parents. Most of my kids are already in their teens, but we still take them with us in public, sometimes. If we are meeting with people in a social situation, we prefer not to have them along, as they can be embarassing when misbehaving towards strangers. <BR> <BR>Just try to act normal when you see babies. They don't bite (although mine did, once) and the mess they usually create in public places is easily cleaned by the custodial staff. <BR> <BR>Reggie

For parents travelling with babies, perhaps you should consider giving the baby a bath BEFORE you travel. Most people think babies need to be bathed every day or every other day, but we have found a baby can go nearly 6 weeks between baths. (Not many here in London bathe very often.) Most people in the US bath their dogs more often than we bathe ourselves! <BR> <BR>One other thing. Don't complain about European's odor. The water svaings alone justify our infrequent bathing. Besides, we have many public fountians, should one desire to bathe without using water they must pay for. <BR> <BR>My advice? Travel quietly, wear a derby when taking the small ones and stop wasting so much of your American water! <BR> <BR>SC

The fact that KC have to ask, should give her a hint that taking a 6-week baby on a London tour is probably not the brightest idea.... <BR> <BR>Also, I happened to notice that, in Europe, not a lot of (apparently) locals take babies (not even toddlers) to tourist sites. <BR> <BR>KC, do yourself, your husband, your baby and other travelers a favor; go to Disneyworld.

I just came back from London last week as I was there for only 6 hours on a layover. I can say that as an adult, I was very uncomfortable. I rode the Tube (subway) and was left standing, squashed between people coughing and sneezing on me. I was jabbed and shoved coming on and off. I cannot imagine having a baby in my arms during all of that! Nor even in a stroller with the rush of people and the doors closing and "the gap" I must mind. Then there is the steep, steep escalator I thought I would fall down with smell of bus diesel that nearly chocked me as I came out of the tube. Then I nearly got run over by a car on the street for not looking to the right as I am used to looking to the left. This being my 15th time to London! I caught a cold on the flight over from the bad airline air. I realized that traveling takes a toll on the human body. I can only imagine how uncomfortable a baby would be. I also wonder if a 6 week old baby's lungs are developed enough for airplane air and city street exhaust pollution. I would really like to know if a Doctor would agree to this trip. Have you ask him/her?

Was that Bart Simpson? His post wasn't that funny. Now Steve's on the other hand showed some humor.

Keith -- Am glad you are taking a 12 month old to visit grandparents. But in no way does this compare with taking a 6 week old to London. <BR> <BR>SIX WEEKS OLD, for God's sake. <BR>

I can't believe this is still going on. KC did not ask if she should take the child, she asked for advice on travelling with babies. We don't know the reason KC is going to London, and frankly, it's no one's business. Also, why do people keep asking if KC has checked with her doctor? Give her the benefit of the doubt. The point made that children do not belong on public transportation is one of the most ludicrous statements I have ever heard. I sincerely hope that what a joke. Believe it or not, for many people, public transportation is the only mode of transportation they have. I ride the metro into Washington, DC every day, and can tell you that young babies ride it all the time with no problem. It is only a very close minded and intolerant person that would have children kept away from the public, and assume that all people have another alternative by which to transport their families. Weren't you a child once? And as for the man who is offended by breastfeeding, get over yourself! Breastfeeding has been occurring since the beginning of time. Most women are very discreet about it, and keep their breasts well covered up. Where do you go that women are brazenly flaunting their milk-laden breasts in your face?

KC, <BR> <BR>When we took our 10 week old to Grand Cayman 14 years ago (to visit family) the doctor recommended Seldane for his ears. A year later studies linked Seldane to crib death. Skip the drugs if you can. Also make sure you request one of those baby cots that lock into the bulkhead for your baby to sleep in. And then make sure they actually seat you at the bulkhead! It's great to have your hands free for just a short while even. And, this should make me really popular, it's a great place to change the baby's diaper. Have a great trip!

Just requesting a crib does not guarantee that you will receive one. Personally I would be terrified of having a tiny baby ripped from my arms during times of severe turbulance. I always travel with my seat belt loosely fastened after hearing horror stories of adults being severely injured by unexpected clear air turbulance. While you may be restrained by a selt belt baby could easily be flung from your arms. Have you considered paying the child fare, thereby ensuring a separate seat and take a child car restraint that can be anchored by the seat belt.

KC, we have travelled OS with our daughter since she was a couple of months old, she's now 25 and is still travelling with us,although now she has us staying at youth hostels!!!!!. Travelling with an infant we found we spoke to and saw more of the locals than whenever travelling by ourselves. The greatest help was a back baby carrier, this way there was no problem with a stroller on stairs etc. Good luck and enjoy. Peg.