London Comments
 

I’ve made a brief visit to London, mostly for business and stayed at the Hotel St. Ermin, as a described in another post. Here are some general comments rather than a blow-by-blow description.

1. Many people love London. I am not one of them. I like London but don’t love it. It is too familiar. We are inheritors of the British culture. London is us. When I travel, I want different culture, different language, different art, architecture, design scenery, etc. However, I certainly can understand why some people love London. It is very, very pleasant for a huge city. If I had to live abroad for 3 months, London would be my choice (Except for Venice). As a tourist, though, I prefer other places.

2. There were two big surprises. The first is how friendly and helpful everyone is. London didn’t meet the stereotype of the reserved Brit. Strangers smiled, talked to and would spontaneously help you if you look lost or confused.

3. Surprise #2. The food was terrific. We had heard that London food was much improved but were still surprised. We had two of our best meals ever at the Cinnamon Club and the Lightship.

4. We had afternoon tea at several places. The Orangery had a very nice environment but the food was a downer, blah cucumber sandwiches and second rate scones and jam. In contrast, we stopped for a quickie at House of Frasier, a second tier department store, and had terrific scones with the best jam I’ve ever encountered. But don’t go there for any special atmosphere. Oddly though, we never had a really good cup of tea anywhere. Must be a lost art there.

5. London is outrageously expensive. General rule: you spend pounds there like dollars back home. In other words, everything is double. The only real exception was pubs, where drinking cost about the same as I pay at home. And the beer is, of course, far better. And bitter.

6. We managed to save some by planning. We got the National Rail 2-for-1 coupons. That saved up $45 dollars going to St. Paul’s and Tower of London alone. Our visit was short, but they could easily save $200 for a week visit where you visit many attractions. Also, all attractions were more expensive than the guidebooks say, since they raise the process every year (according to one of the tellers at the Tower of London).

7. You need a National rail ticket to use the coupons, so we took the Southern train rather than the express from Gatwick. It was fast and easy. Personally, I see no real to spend the extra $16 (a couple) to take the express in order to arrive 10 minutes faster.

8. We also saved money by booking the Lightship through Toptable. This gave us a 50% food discount, which we promptly threw away by ordering drinks before dinner. With tax and service, the 2 drinks cost us $28. At the Cinnamon Club two drinks cost us $32. At a pub, you can get *doubles* for $5. Moral: do your drinking before going to eat. Also note: if you ask for water, you will get bottled water that will add about $9 to your bill.

To be continued.

I'll be staying at Jolly St Ermin's next week, would love to hear your comments on it.

Sorry, I just saw your other thread on your review on Jolly St Ermin's. Thanks

http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34619003

I guess your post proves that saying about the eye of the beholder....I am very familiar w/Boston a US city often compared to London and I could not have found the London experience to be more different!! There is another saying that goes something like "Two completely different cultures divided by a common language" Not sure of the exact phrase, but I was taken aback by how *different* London was. Oh and BTW, I loved it!!

>We are inheritors of the British culture. London is us.<

Balderdash.

((I))

I find no similarity between London and any U.S. city I've been too. Sadly much of our "culture" is finding its way there--Starbucks, McDonalds, and various other chains. As far as everything else is concerned, I love the differences I see and feel, which is why we go there every chance we get.

" find no similarity between London and any U.S. city I've been too."

Let's see. People look the same, dress the same and speak the same. Many of the stores are the same as we see at home. The culture is the same. The food is he same. Their great books and art are our great books and art. The building and store fronts mostly look the same. Sure there are some diffeerences, but there is far more regional variation withing the US than there is between the US and London.

You can't any of this about Rome, Venice, Florence. Paris, Madrid, Barcelona, Lisbon, Istanbul, etc. etc.

If you think that There is a major difference between London and us, then you have no perspective or real understanding of culture.

PS The notion that Boston is the US city most like London is bizarre. What dimbulbt would ever say that?

">We are inheritors of the British culture. London is us.<

Balderdash."

Well, gee, this was a well-reasoned and and highly insightful comment.

Here's an honest question. Does this Ira person have a life?. I don't think that a single thread has ever been started on Fodors where he doesn't feel compelled to open his yap, usually with pointless blather like this.

To a degree, I suppose I agree with you that London is a great deal like say New York or any other big American city.

I think the reason many feel that way is because of the common language. You can read the signs, you can ask questons of the clerks in the Underground, you can watch the telly and yes one would have to say that pre 1776 American history is to a large degree British history insofar as the inheritance of some of our institutions (but clearly not all).

One also gets the feeling that many of the problems of the American large cities have become, unfortunately, to infiltrate into London including problems such as crime in some areas. I have also read a thread on the BBC web site where a shopping mall in the UK is now banning folks wearing baseball caps and hooded sweatshirts. Wonder where they got that from.

Also the fact that if you walk down the street you see McDonald's, Burger King, Pizza Hut, KFC, the Gap, 7-11's, signs for Coca Cola etc.

It is clear that many youngsters and teens do like to emulate some of the things the Americans have imported again somewhat to the chagrin of their elders.

But believe me, if I blindfolded you and turned you loose in London without telling you where you were, you would immediately know you are not in the United States.

However, let me say this, if I did the same and turned you loose in Toronto, you would not realize you were in another country. As a matter of fact, many of our films and television shows are filmed in Canada, not in the UK.

My impressions were very different when I visited London at three different points in time. First time was 1972, second 1990, and third 2004. At each visit, London seemed a large leap closer to American culture than the time before.

The first time I visited London I did feel a little disappointed that it seemed so similiar to the US - Boston actually, where I had just flown in from. Many buildings, especially churches were of essentially the same design. This is no surprise as it was people from England who settled Boston, which is in New England - duh, I wonder how it got that name. So Imhornet, since you are the one who started this thread saying London and the US are so similiar, which city do you think it's most like?.

HOWEVER, I only spent a couple days there that first time, and the next time (and all subsequent visits) I have not had that feeling. Once you spend any time in London, really look around it's very different.

>If you think that There is a major difference between London and us, then you have no perspective or real understanding of culture. <

Balderdash and sheepdip.

Why, Ira! You've just given your version of cussing like a sailor. (I like your way better.)

I think London is still different enough from the States to make it a visit to a foreign country! However, and sadly in some respects, the world culture is homogenizing. This global village stuff is starting to look real.

Many people go abroad and seek out those experiences and parts of a country that have been Americanized, and then complain that "it just wasn't that different." I am NOT accusing you of that, Imhornet, just stating a fact as it is often presented in this forum.

Has anyone read "The Accidental Tourist?" Some people plan their trips around familiar (homelike)restaurants or experiences. Their motives vary, but the end result is always the same: their trip is never as satisfying as it would have been if they'd embraced new experiences instead of trying to eliminate them.

>Has anyone read "The Accidental Tourist?"
Yes

>Some people plan their trips around familiar .....

Reminds me of the time I was eavesdropping (sorry, couldn't help overhearing..) on a conversation among some folks who were traveling through Europe on business:

"The London Hilton was so British".
"Yes, and the Paris Hilton is so French".
"Agreed. The Berlin Hilton was so German, and the Hilton in Amsterdam is so very Dutch".

So very TW3.

((I))

Hey, everyone has a right to their opinions! Imhornet, thanks for taking the time to share yours.

I have to say I disagree with a lot of what you say, which I'm entitled to do, but wouldn't it be boring if we all saw the world the same way?

I do think that London can seem similar to many US cities on the surface (especially in terms of appearances - fashion, architecture, language spoken) but I believe that the differences are more numerous than the similarities and the outlook of our two peoples are very different, as is our approach to life, the universe and everything. We share much of our history, yes, but our present is not quite as homogenous.

Certainly, comparing countries like Italy, Spain, Portugal, Turkey to the US makes it easier to spot the many differences - there they are on the surface as well as deeper down...

"We had heard that London food was much improved but were still surprised"

I'm not quite sure what age you're living in. London has some of the world's finest restaurants. You seem overly precious about everything. You remind me of the sort of person who'll complain about everything and lives in a caravan (or perhaps you call it a trailer?). What do you expect? A city comprises many things, and Venice? You couldn't get more touristy.

I, for one, see no reason for further explanation from ira for saying "balderdash" to "London is us". Anyone who thinks London and any city in the US are just alike needs to be spoken to in far more explicit words than that one by ira.

Sure there are similarities, but no one in his right mind could say San Francisco and New York are the same, yet, surely anyone would find more differences between either of them and London! If a person were blindfolded and somehow tricked onto a plane and then plunked down in London, can anyone seriously believe he'd think he was in Peoria when the blindfold came off? Or even in New York? These sound like ideas coming from people who have never even been to London, but are only suspecting because we speak a "somewhat" common language, everything there is just like "us".

Imhornet continues his in the box review of London here:

http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34619481

Imhornet, you would have been better served to have tacked your 9. through 13. onto this thread or to have given your follow up post a more illuminating title than "London Review."

That you expected London to be full of stodgy, reserved people and dull food is an indication that you were working off of greatly outdated stereotypes.

I'm with Kavey, all opinions are welcome, but you're going to encounter some disagreeing ones. You have taught me something new. I have never heard Harrod's foodhall described as inexpensive nor the exterior of Harrod's described as a good place for watching good looking women pass by.

I'll tell you a funny story...several years ago I was on a queue at a London underground station and the clerk was trying to explain to a family which evidently spoke and understood very little English the advantage of buying a family travelcard for the day rather than 3 single fares...he kept asking them if they were going to use the tube again that day. After about 3 or 4 minutes he gave up and sold them what they had asked for.

I stepped up to the window and said in my best American English, "I should like a seven day zone 1 travelcard." He looked at me and said bloody foreigners, they just don't have a clue."

The day London becomes like any American city is the day I stop going there. What a tragedy that would be.

Imhornet:

Personally, I don't agree that you need to be "instructed" or reviled because of your opinion and some of us here actually do appreciate hearing it.

I am also happy to see that you are not feeling so self-important (or is it attention-starved?) that you felt the need to "announce" your return (or your departure for that matter) as a separate post.

>I am also happy to see that you are not feeling so self-important (or is it attention-starved?) that you felt the need to "announce" your return (or your departure for that matter) as a separate post.<

What is this about?

<i>&quot;London is us. When I travel, I want different culture, different language, different art, architecture, design scenery, etc.&quot;</i>

On my first trip to London, the thing that surprised me the most was just how multi-cultural it was.

On the surface there me be a lot of similarities between London and some of our large cities since many of our US cities had their roots in Britain. But if you delve a little deeper, you understand the history and evolution of London.

&quot;Let's see. People look the same, dress the same and speak the same. Many of the stores are the same as we see at home. The culture is the same. The food is he same. Their great books and art are our great books and art. The building and store fronts mostly look the same.&quot;

You obviously saw London through different eyes than I do. Or perhaps I have a more discerning eye. Look the same, yes perhaps but there are slight differences in how we dress and mannerisms.

As far as speaking the same I beg to differ! I'll give you same language, but the accents, manner in which things are said and difference in many words is significantly different.

There are also many differences in food. I don't remember an English breakfast, bangers and mash, or many other dishes peculiar to London/England in the US.

Many of the stores are quite different as well. I find the boutique and specialty shops terrific, since I find practically every mall in the US identical as far as the stores are concerned. Small, inviting book shops have disappeared, thanks to the huge chains, etc.

Culture the same. To some degree yes, but I don't recall a royal family, a parliament, the ecstatic enthusiasm for football (soccer) or many other differences from the US.

The buildings and storefronts are not the same for the most part. We are a tear down and rebuild society, the British are not. I appreciate the &quot;oldness&quot; and history they preserve in the buildings and stores.

Sorry IH, but I disagree with you completely. I still find London unique in comparison to any US city I've visited, and I've been to most of the majors.

It would be lovely if you would allow me to disagree!

I can see where you get a lot of your insights on London, Imhornet, but one where I have to respectfully disagree to some point is &quot;When I travel i want different culture, different language...&quot; as if you did not experience that in the UK - especially in London, the place is becoming more and more ethnically diverse all the time. I visited there the first time in 1994 and have returned 3 additional times, and each time I hear more non-English spoken and encounter more non-English residents, Even outside London &amp; the other large cities. The last time I was there (in 2004), my mom and I were in a taxi and the driver agreed with us when we obseved that 10 years from now, the only people speaking English as a first language in London will be the taxi drivers and American tourists.

Me, desptie, or pehaps for, the reason yuo stated, I absolutely LOVE London, it's my secodn favorite place int eh world (after edinburgh).

Well one must understand that because of the EU regulations, any citizen of the EU can get a work permit or whatever is needed to work in other EU countries. I ran into this problem a couple of weeks ago in Dublin where many of the waiters did not speak English (or Irish for that matter) but languages such as Rumanian, Polish etc. I suppose the same thing is happening in London and in the UK but locals will have to comment on that.

Imhornet,

I think you’ll find that your first three comments were the controversial ones, the rest have received no interest. These were your personal opinion, other more seasoned visitors have disagreed with you – Why would this bother you?

As you say yourself you we’re there on a brief visit and that was for business – how much of London could you actually see, visit for a vacation I think you’ll be surprised.

From a personal point of view - as a Brit living in the US I disagree that we ‘speak the same language’.

Had 20th century technology not interceded, it is very possible the languages would have drifted much further apart and perhaps the languages might have really become somewhat different much as Norwegian is different from Danish, American would be different from English...

However, since we all watch many of the same shows on the telly and see many of the same flicks in theatres (cinemas) and pay huge amounts of money for gas (petrol), I really have very little difficulty when riding up on an elevator (lift) in London and listening in on conversations (naughty naughty of me no doubt) understanding exactly what is being said just as I am sure if you were to ride the New York City subway (underground) and listen in on conversations, you wouldhave little difficulty understanding so like it or not, the languages indeed are the same today (IMHO of course)...

xyz123 - you sound like a people watcher to me:-) Join the club!

Well, I do manage the gas/petrol, wing/fender, sneakers/trainers differences, well most of the time - the problems I have are now generally with pronunciation, yogurt, tomato, aluminium for example, they trip me up purely because when I use the US pronunciation they sound false to me.

I can’t count the number of times I’ve had to repeat a whole comment simply because I’ve used the British pronunciation of a word.

you mean leftenant for lieutenant...shedule for skedule (spelling off but tried to get sounds correct) or mobi(long i)le for mobil...of course the best way to trip any of us up is to ask what is the last letter of the alphabet...we say zee in the US you guys say zed!

Of course, we all hate waiting on lines oops I mean queues.

But there is one thing I see in supermarkets in London that I wish they would adopt in the US....the check out is 1 long (or short) queue and the cashiers sit at their registers; I don't understand why American supermarkets have separate lines for each cashier and of course I always get on the slowet one!

QUEUE!!!!

When, during a conversation about a visit to Six Flags, I used the word ‘queue’ instead of 'waiting in line' a good friend of mine asked what a queue was and she asked again the next couple of times we met - and yet – we both use Netflix and what do you save your choices in?????

Yes! A queue!

Have you seen the handheld scanners that shoppers use while they shop and pack their own groceries in their trolley/cart as they go through the store/supermarket - loved it and miss it still.

To imhornet--I wonder what prompted you to both misread and feel the need to make an insulting comment to my alternate viewpoint. I assume--clearly incorrectly--that your post was made to express your thoughts on the subject and to invite other's responses.
You also seem to have misunderstood ira's tongue in cheek humor using an &quot;English&quot; way of commenting...but as I said, it appears that you were not really inviting responses.....Your kind of vitriolic comment about other posters made me very hesitant to further respond to you, but the few on this board who seem to have a need to be cyber bullies need to be told clearly that they make participating here a poorer experice, sad to say.

&quot;Imhornet, you would have been better served to have tacked your 9. through 13. onto this thread or to have given your follow up post a more illuminating title than &quot;London Review.&quot;

I did that because I accidentally posted the original comments on the general European board rather than on the UK board.

I really laugh at you people who say that Londoon is vastly different. If that's true, then what does that make Venice, Rome or Paris? Get a grip, people.

Lastly, people who talk about the differences between US and British English are largely misinformed as to the reason. It is not just because Americans don't speak like Brits. Even Brits don't speak like Brits - at least the ones of 250 years ago. Both American and British &quot;received&quot; English have drifted significantly over the years. There is much in American speech that is more like the Britain of 250 years ago than in current Britain. Many linguistics experts, in fact, say that there are small isolated pockets of the US here the speech is more like that of England English of 250 years ago that what is currently spoken in England.

I find the entire thread interesting. I have long known that Fodor's discussion boards are largely diminated by posting Nazis who go into a frothing fury at anyone who does not toe their dogmatic party line. One of their firm rules that you are not allowed to criticize anything. If you don't agree that everything in Europe is WONDERFUL GREAT COLOSSAL and better than anything in the US in the past, present and future, then you become a target.

OK, I knew that already. But what really surprises me is the sensitivity of their petty intolerance. Not only do you offend their delicate little sensibilities by criticizing something, they become just as enraged if you merely like it and don't love it. There is a good doctoral thesis in this for some aspiring clinical psychology student. Ira, alone, would be worth 200 pages.

Actually I was trying to be humorous (or is it humourous?) in discussing the language differences or lack thereof.

Let me ask those who have travelled to both countries a simple question...do you really have a great deal of difficulty understanding what is being said, even with the few words that are different or pronounced differently or spelled (centre, theatre, humour, tyre) differently? Don't Americans watch many of the British soap operats or whatever they are called and have no difficulty understanding? Same with Brits; I watch British telly all the time when I am in London and many of the shows are American anyway.

Actually, the only times I have difficulty in London are in some restaurants with non English speaking waiters or waiters from such places as India (no offense meant) who have some difficulty with my NY accent.

Again, as I said, this one fact alone makes London seem less foreign to Americans than other countries.

You know, in many respects, Germany is somewhat more like America than is Britain. Much of Germany is ultra modern and Germans certainly embrace American efficiency when it comes to things like fast foods much quicker than do Brits, at least that's the way it seems to me (an opinion of course)...but I never feel at home in Germany. Why? Because I don't speak one bloody word of German...well a couple (guten tag, auf wiedersain or however it is spelled and of course the most important toiletten (30 cents please)). I can't watch the telly unless the movies that are shown are sub-titled in German and shown in the original language (happens a lot in Holland but no so much in German)..when I check into a German hotel, the first thing I want to know is what English language television will be available (invariably the BBC).

We all have to lighten up a bit; after all it's no longer 1776 and supposedly we are all friends.

Imhomet: I (for one) agree with your comments. I think your point is, compared to some other European cities, London is perhaps the least different from a major US city. It is unique and distinguishable, but compared to some of the other cities you mentioned, it is less different. Why that comment is so hard to accept, I have no idea. Don't let the Fodorcultists get you down....

Hmmm...well I might as well join the fray..!

1) As a Londoner I don't like hearing that my beloved home isn't unique but I'm not going to get down to petty squabbles about why it is unique IN SOME WAYS.

2) I have long loved the States but have never been anywhere like New York or Chicago or Boston. My argument? Well I live in a big, cosmopolitan, expensive city - so why would I want to holiday somewhere the same? Which kind of puts me in your camp, Imhornet!

3) I have also long put forth my objection that 'Europe' be lumped together as though it were one 'nation'. There is little cohesion across Europe other than shared borders and thus it has evolved that we in the UK have more in common with the US than our continental neighbours (and age-old enemies!!)

I love London and I think that it is special, but if you live in the States and you want to experience VERY differing culture (though some may disagree that culture is the right word! - ha ha!) then London isn't the place to go. Maybe it's the language thing, who knows, but there are fewer noticeable differences here than elsewhere.

&gt;I did that because I accidentally posted the original comments on the general European board rather than on the UK board.&lt;

Speaking of misinformed, perhaps you need a refresher in the Fodors FAQ's for posting. There is no separate UK Board. All comments are posted to the European forum. Selecting a country only feeds the clunky and ineffective search feature.

Tallulah, I have always agreed with you on this subject:

&quot;I have also long put forth my objection that 'Europe' be lumped together as though it were one 'nation'. There is little cohesion across Europe other than shared borders and thus it has evolved that we in the UK have more in common with the US than our continental neighbours (and age-old enemies!!)&quot;

However, beginning with our trip in 2002 (post EU), Britons are identifying themselves as Europeans more and mre frequently. I made it a point to ask taxi drivers, hotel personnel, waiters, etc. in London what their personal opinion was of the Euro, the EU, etc. Almost all of them said they consider themselves Europeans first, and Britons second. I was very surprised, as I had been prepared instead for a sort of &quot;grand old flag&quot; waving and union jack mentality.

Do you think my admittedly small and unscientific sample does not represent a significant line of thinking in the UK? Does the European vs. Briton argument divide along class lines? I would love to hear about this from your point of view.

kswl's experience certainly surprises me, at least as regards taxi drivers. A lot of other service personnel in London are quite likely to be from elsewhere in the EU anyway, but I think the general feeling is that while EU membership is an unavoidable necessity, it isn't more inspiring than that. I'd accept that more British people than one might imagine from the tabloids have some sense of sharing something with other EU members, but the idea of a sense of 'European' identity taking precedence over a British one (when there is already a hugely complicated issue over British vs English identity) seems far too ambitious. I doubt if it's true of any of the EU countries outside, say, Belgium (which has its own problems).