I think that there is something of a different conception of when a line is formed and when not. If a clear line exists, they are normally observed in Germany, at least I can?t remember when someone tried to cut a line at the exit of a supermarket or in a similar situation.

On the other hand, I once nearly jumped a line in front of a bus in England. I was even first at the bus stop and could see that over the time of maybe 20 minutes people started to form a tight line between steel rails to wait in a queue to enter an empty bus. It stroke me as one of the most senseless things I?ve ever seen. I mean, standing close top each other, without having the opportunity to walk around, look into shop windows etc. just to enter a bus according to some rigid order 30 seconds earlier or later? But when the bus arrived, I nearly walked to the entrance out of pure habit before I remembered the queue, but only because it was that obvious. If there hadn?t been the steel rails and I hadn?t watched it form, I would have ignored it since I didn?t expect it to be there.
So if someone decides to form a queue in Germany, it doesn?t mean that everybody else considers forming a queue in that moment to be sensible and then many will ignore it. I could very well have been the person jumping Surfergirl?s line of 5 people waiting to enter an empty bus because I wouldn?t have noticed that anyone might actually care to enter the bus in a certain order. And if someone stood up for his right to be first in the line, I would consider him rather odd since I wouldn?t understand why he cared.

Another difference is that at least in Germany, people in front of three counters often don?t form one but three lines. So if you?re standing in a line in front of the first counter for 10 minutes, this doesn?t mean that you have an increased right to be served at counter 2. It?s a stupid habit, in my opinjon, but that?s often the etiquette. Of course it doesn?t mean that the etiquette might not change an hour later to a single queue approach.

The whole thing is just a little bit more fluid and I think that people are served more or less in the order of their arrival, so it?s not considered to be a big deal if it isn?t the exactly rigid order of having arrived somewhere.

Hans:Our experiences with German tourists and in Germany are quite a bit different than you describe.The line jumpers we came across could not have been in any doubt.

Europewithkids - but this is my point exactly .... every nation has its stereotypes, real or perceived ...
Fact is, not all Italians drive like lunatics, not all French are obnoxious, not every American is loud, not all Australians are brash, not many Germans are boring ... and let me tell you queue jumping is not a european phenomenon, it is alive and well all over the world.
just as it is silly of me to suggest all americans dress badly so is it of you to suggest that it took a trip to europe to notice that people have less respect for each other these days.
when it comes to lack of respect for others i'm thinking stones and glass houses - you're comment about Europeans eagerness to buy into american culture .... the word we use is GLOBALISATION - now don't get me started on THAT !
EMK, i do think queue jumping is somewhat annoying. rude and disrespectful is a bit OTT. I sampled the 18 staff in my office (we are from Italy, Germany, Sweden, Spain, Denmark, Finland, South Africa, Guinea, Australia, Ireland,and Belgium)we decided it's considered no more than a 'bit of cheek' probably resulting in a good 'ol confabulation with the complete stranger standing next to you.
i just couldn't resist replying to you as you unwittingly perpetuated your own stereotype by posting comments that imply America sets the benchmark, and that benchmark can be enforced abroad.

Sorry Leisa, you and your coworkers are a bit off the mark on this one. Queue jumping IS rude, especially if others have been waiting in line for some time, it's more than just a bit of "cheek." It indicates that the line jumper feels HIS time is much more valuable than YOURS. IOW, selfish and rude. And like it or lump it, Americans ARE better than Europeans at waiting in line at some places, such as ski resorts. The Europeans we know who've skied in the U.S. come back amazed at how polite Americans are in lift lines--what would be considered out of bounds behavior in a U.S. lift line is simply the norm in Europe (in fact, persistent line jumping at some ski resorts can result in the offender having their lift ticket revoked). Play dodgeball with that all you like, but it's simply a fact.
That is completely different from national stereotypes (Americans loud, French rude, etc.). At any rate, survey after survey proves you wrong--it's the Americans who are viewed as the polite tourists and the Brits who are the bigmouths (and we see plenty of them here in Brussels--from the screaming nannies to the loud lads who wouldn't think of drinking or eating anywhere but the local Irish pubs--as bad as that ever-growing binge drinking segment of UK culture is at home, it's positively appalling elsewhere).

But hey BTilke, at least we queue up. We can't be all that bad.

Brit Kate x

Hi Kate, makes you wonder--which is worse, a bunch of line jumping non British Europeans or a bunch of drunk Brits waiting in line ;-)

I don't see anything wrong with saying Americans *on average* happen to be more polite about waiting in line than (non British) Europeans--especially because it happens to be true... after all, there are plenty of things one could reasonably argue that Europeans *in general* do better than Americans, why can't there be some things that Americans do better?

BTilke:

Of COURSE Americans do some things better, don't deny that. But we Brits INVENTED queuing, we do it for a hobby - in fact the Chief Exec of the Post Office recently went on record saying that the British would miss queuing at the Post Office if it suddenly got all efficient! (no comment!)

Of course we're a nation of beer-swilling oiks, but please don't tell me that Americans queue better than we do!!!

I am curious.What do Europeans do better than Americans?

I'm sure some of you remember the Who concert in Cincinatti many years ago in which a couple of people were pushed through glass doors. There were no assigned seats, all seating was "festival style".

In Milan last year as my family waited on a line in the airport terminal people were jumping over the barricades to be next in line. It was scary. Surely some government organization, perhaps the fire marshalls, could control these situations in public buildings and the idea would start a trend. Festival style seating is not safe when boarding a plane.

==Mike

Tallulah, in my previous post, didn't I say "non British" Europeans? Put down that pint (unless you've already switched to Vodka and Red Bull) and re-read my message ;-)

In my experience, line jumping is pretty universally frowned on in the U.S. My husband inadvertently cut ahead in a line at an ice cream stand on Cape Cod, Massachusetts (there were several lines at the counter and it wasn't clear where the end was). Someone set him straight, and a voice in the crowd muttered, "Must be from New York." Which we are, funnily enough.
However, a few weeks ago I was at the cab stand/taxi rank outside Grand Central Terminal in New York City. A man tried to cut into the line, and the uniformed guy running the stand admonished him to get to the end of the line, and then yelled down the line: "I'm watching you!" He ran a tight ship, no line jumpers allowed!
I had a funny experience in Israel a few years ago--I was the guilty one who pushed ahead in line to buy film at a church gift shop in Jerusalem (didn't want to lose my group) and I heard someone say, "Pushy Christians!"
Re comments re loud Americans, etc. If there are 100 Americans in the room, and 10 of them are loud, those are the ones you notice, ignoring the 90 quiet ones! And of course, someone who dresses differently or who has a different accent will always stand out.

If I ever win millions in the lottery, I vow here and now to bring groups of Europeans over by the hundreds, send them to a Vegas buffet full of New Yorkers, then broadcast tv specials called "When Americans Attack."

atlcity: since you asked, after 5+ years of living in Europe there are a few things that I've come to believe Europeans *in general* do better than Americans. It does NOT mean I think Europeans are better people than Americans.
1. Mass transit (excluding the UK, sadly)
2. Balancing work and leisure
3. Buying quality rather than quantity
4. Cafes
5. Continuing the tradition of well-balanced nutritious meals savoured by the entire family.
6. Being able to find inexpensive little family-owned restaurants serving tasty healthy food in even the smallest town.

Leisa: I took your comments to be stereotyping of Americans. If that is not what you meant, my apologies. However, the point about globalization is not one of rudeness or bravado, it is just the way it is. I am not in any way saying that American culture is better, just that Europeans tend to eat much of it up. Some of this is no doubt marketing but the stuff that sticks obviously appeals. As for your comments about line cutting, I must agree with others that it is not cheeky behavior, but disrespectful and selfish. It also may be common around the world, but it was noticeably worse during our two weeks in Europe compared to the USA (and I travel around the USA quite a bit). However, it is just one thing. The great majority of people I ran into were very nice, polite and went out of their way to be helpful. It is an observation and I wanted to see if it was just me or if others noticed the same thing. It is not a condemnation of Europeans in total.

While waiting in a long long at a bus stop here in Vancouver, an old Chinese woman pushed in front of me. I told her in no uncertain terms that her behaviour was rude and that Canadians do not do that! As a multicultural city, we need to share the best of our cultures - not the worst!!

Hate to conform to stereotype, and I'd love to stay and watch this fascinating cultural assasination develop, but it's home time for me, so I'm off to my local to queue up at the bar for a good stiff G&T. Have fun!

Thank you BTilke - I will let my colleagues know they are all misguided in their opinions.
silly billy, you have missed the point entirely. My original reply (waaaaay up the top there) to EWK was an ironic attempt to highlight how stereotypical it is of an American to even feel the need to post a comment about his experience of 'rampant' queque jumping in Europe.
IMO, EWK's post exposed more about Americans insular attitude than it did about rude european line cutters.

btilke:I agree on all of those points.

leisa, Irony doesn't translate well onto the screen. I've re-read your original post here a couple of times and I still don't see the nuance of irony.

Now, silly billy. Is that supposed to be ironic or just precious?

I recently returned from a week in Germany (Frankfurt and Neckar valley area) and was driven nearly mad by the line jumping! My worst experience was trying to get breakfast at McDonalds in the airport (only open take-away on a sunday morning). It was fairly busy, and I was cut in front of by at least 6 people, after every time I tried a new approach, standing closer, glaring, etc, but nothing worked.
The airport security line was nearly as bad, some americans waiting patienly behind us nearly missed their flight as a result!

Next trip I will try the thumb pointed to the back of the line as someone suggested!

I was browsing at a bookstore lately and in thumbing through a book called "20 million frenchmen can't be wrong" (or something to that effect). The book (somewhat scholarly in nature) suggested that line jumping was a product of the european understanding that not all people are equal, and therefore it is acceptable to cut infront of "lesser" people (naturally all americans would fall into this category). Any native europeans care to comment on this?