Fodor's Travel Talk Forums - Let me make it clear:

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- - Let me make it clear: (https://www.fodors.com/community/europe/let-me-make-it-clear-51139/)

Oh, please. Hasn't your mother taught you not to lead a man on...? Common sense indicates that men everywhere of all ages will take advantage (at least make every effort) of a woman if given the opportunity!

Jeez people - lighten up! So, I guess Becky should never go swimming or have any kind of contact with a man? Or make sure she swims with all your clothes on. Please. She's asking a valid question - if you don't like it, don't post a response. And even if she wasn't, are the mean spirited responders so hardened they forgot how clueless we were back then. I never made it out of the country until my late twenties, so Bravo Becky, for an early start on the wonderful world of travel. Ignore the mean spirited folks and enjoy your travels.

I'm amazed, perhaps even appalled, that a good number of those most critical of Becky are women! For the sake of the victims, I hope none of you is ever on a jury in a rape or attempted rape case!

Raleigh and Howard, how nice to see two men come to Becky's defense. I wholeheartedly agree with both of your posts. Let's see... Girl flies to France +runs into a situation she is unsure about +wants to know what to do in the future = a travel question for the Europe section on Fodors Seems logical to me. Becky, I give you credit for asking this question. How about the old adage 'there are no stupid questions, just stupid answers'? Kittie

Lighten up folks! If you don't like the question don't answer!!!! I got my "boob" grabbed from behind at dinner in the Dominican Republic. I had my back turned and was at dinner with 2 other females and 2 males...was I asking for it too???? I was not 17 but 33...I laughed it off but it was not welcome and shocked the men at my table! Unfortunately men seem to feel that women on vacation often are "looking for it".

i AGREE, lighten up. While in Italy in Naples, I had my boob grabbed while riding a bus, they guy did it as he was getting off the bus, and when I looked at him after he did it, he winked at me. Another time, while in Naples again, the bus was very crowded, and I was with my friends on our way to the beach. I wondered why this guy behind me kept pushing into me, and then a light went off in my head, and I figured it out. Last year, while in Naples again, I was waiting for my husband to get our car and was waiting in front of our hotel, and a guy approached me to have coffee with me, and said thanks, but no thanks, he would not take no for an answer, I told him I was married and he would not leave me alone till my husband came with the car. They are an aggressive bunch!

I'm keeping out of the whole "is-this-a-valid-travel-question" debate in the interest of not promoting a flame-war, but I do have two cents to add about avoiding unwanted advances, especially in Europe. Based on my experieces, I urge Becky, and other females, NOT to ever give an unwanted suitor "a little slap", or any expression of anger or disgust, unless you come to a point where you have NO option but to physically defend yourself (ie. if you're actually being assaulted). I have found many European men (esp. in Italy) to have much more pride than American guys and become quite easily angered when they are rejected rudely. The best bet to is to handle unwanted advances with a sense of humour, to try to pleasantly brush guys off. I know that it is invasive to be touched by strange men and that it can make you feel really angry - but the goal here is to discourage the man as safely as possible and to walk away unharmed...not to assert your own self-respect and make a statement. You can't blame a guy for trying (especially if you're attractive, ladies!), so unless he becomes overly persistent, why not try being pleasant about the experience and letting him down easy? KK

Kimberley: *YES*. Thanks so much for reinforcing that "giving a guy a little smack" if his attentions are obnoxious/unwanted is *not* a safe or smart idea. Whether he's European, American, or from yet another area of the globe, a guy who's the type to push himself on you past the point that you become uncomfortable is probably also the type who would react *very very badly* to getting hit, in any way, by a woman. Best bet is always to try to *de*escalate the situation (hitting is escalating), or get out of it entirely.

I only read this thread and not the original, so I'm a little hazy on what the question actually was, but how's this for aggressive European men: when I was 20 I took an overnight train from Paris to Venice by myself. I got a compartment all to myself, or so I thought. I was fully clothed, under a towel or jacket, I can't remember, and had secured the door. I woke up as we were crossing the border into Italy not because a conductor was coming to check my passport, but because a strange Italian man, in his 20's from the look of him, was kissing me on the mouth! As I was still groggy and spoke very little Italian I was completely at a loss. I just acted totally confused and when he asked in broken english if it was nice, I think I said something vaguely complimentary and asked him to leave. He did, and I honestly have to say I never felt in any danger of being raped, which is possibly a real inability to judge character. You may be saying, my fault for going to sleep, but I swear I thought the door was locked.... So then, the next day while in Venice with a friend, I celebrated my 21st birthday in Piazza San Marco. Two Italian men, again 20somethings, approached us, began chatting in very broken english, and telling us how beautiful we were, then my guy started kissing me and when I pulled away suggested we go to the Lido beach to continue celebrating. I said I had to call my parents to say hi and my friend and I ran to a phone booth and both crammed in. The guys followed us and waited as I pantomimed calling people for a good ten minutes! Finally they left! I was at the time incredibly nerdy looking, not at all sexily dressed, not drinking, and certainly not flirting with anyone. At no other point in any of my travels has anything similar occurred. I therefore have formed the opinion that Italian men are more sexually aggressive than Americans. (But I repeat, I never felt so threatened I would have hit the guy or yelled for the police, and I certainly enjoy telling the story now that I've stopped shaking.)

While I agree in theory that it's not advisable to slap strange men, I'm not sure how I could control myself if some man was to grab my boob. I'm sure, if I was quick enough, my instinct would be to do more than give a little slap. Unwanted advances are one thing, but that's an assault. Then again, best intentions aside, I would probably be in such a state of shock that I wouldn't react quickly enough. Certainly at home, in Sydney, I would practice my martial arts on anyone who tried such a thing, wise or not.

Hey Beck! Why not 'post' your picture (in your black swimsuit) and let US decide if HE was a Frenchman Pig, Huh? Ha! Ha! Ha! I'll bet EVEN an old, ugly, married guy like me would have (at least been tempted to) hit on you!!! I am sympathetic though, as I have a fourteen year old, that I worry about, running into a guy like I used to be! Ha! Ha! Ha! Enjoy the looks and "hits" as they won't always be there... Mr. "C"

I'm really surprised at the responses to this and to the original thread. I find the advice to be much too undecisive. Here is what I would suggest. At the first unwelcome act, there should be a notice to the man that his act is not welcome. The severity of this "notice" should depend on the severity of the act. For instance, if a man whistles and makes a comment, it is appropriate to roll your eyes and shake your head, or shake your head and add a scolding finger (I mean as you would a child, not THE finger). Sometimes it can even be done with a slight wry smile, but not an inviting smile. If the first unwelcome act is more serious, like unwanted non-sexual touching (blocking your path, holding you by the arm, or similar), then a more severe first "notice" should be given. A stern "stop it" with an angry look is appropriate. If the first unwelcome act is even more serious, like sexual touching or aggressive behavior, then the "notice" can indeed be physical in nature. In the days of yore, a woman would slap a man across the face (the proverbial little slap). I don't recommend this, because it is largely ineffective and mostly meant to insult. In this day and age, some men see nothing wrong with returning the slap with more force. Rather, I would suggest that you learn basic defensive moves that are consistent with the behavior. Learn how to immediately free yourself from someone's grip. Learn how to divert sexual touching. And learn how to take the offense if the guy gets more aggressive. I don't make a habit of going around in fighting stance! And it is best to make the first response to a lighthearted act, also lighthearted. But I don't ever recommend laughing it off, or running away. Women and girls, learn how to feel comfortable with your strength so that you can protect yourself if things get carried away!