Let me make it clear:
 

Okay, mabye I wasn't clear as I should have been when I first posted my question. What I was asking was has this ever happened to anyone else and are European men more aggressive here than America and am I the only one who experienced this? <BR>I don't understand why some of these posters are so hostile. If you look on the Fodors posting you see ...."no rudeness." <BR>I am an intelligent 17 year old girl and I visit this Fodors forum quite often, and the other questions I've asked have been quite mature. <BR> <BR>All of you with rude comments, do not respond. Rudeness is not the objective of the Fodor's collum. <BR> <BR>Sincerely, Becky

I am sorry you were hurt Becky. Its a fact of life so get use to it. You must admit, it was a fairly immature question. This is a travel site - mainly frequented by adults and more mature people. I am sure there are plenty of teenage gossip sites, where they'll want to know all about your experience. By the way - one word of advice. If you got that excited over your episode in France - you'll have a coronary in Italy! <BR>No offence intended - except perhaps "harden up" :-)

In regards to the rudeness, this site is often visited by Americans!!! nuff said! <BR> <BR>Anyways, I think the Italians and the French are more affectionate. The british are quite conservative when it comes to approaching women - however, there is always the exceptions. While in England, I was on the tube, and this guy stared and stared and stared. I thought he had a problem, but I just smiled back. When I got off at the Covent Gardens stop, he got off too, and then proceeded to ask me out. It was sorta creapy, but flattering...

I come here for travel help, not teenage petty questions and responses. I dont think this has any relation to travel whatsoever. It should probably be posted in maybe a teenage or relatonships forum - not in Fodors. <BR> <BR>Thanks

Becky, I believe your question is well within the bounds of what we construe as 'travel' in this forum. If haggis in a tube can be, why not this? We have fun here, and rudeness too,sometimes, but very human behavior displayed at all times, within a wide range, no matter whose nationality or place of origin. And yes, I do think your rephrasing youroriginal posting does help. Although, obviously, some other people don't think so. But, hey, that's life. Someone I work with reads Fodors all the time but won't post because she's afraid of having someone take a dig at her. She's three times older than you are, so consider yourself brave and hang in there. Great stuff.

Becky, <BR>I think you have a very valid question. I too felt that the first time I went to France, the men were very aggressive. I was stared at, wink at,pinched several times, blown kisses to, etc., all while simply passing men on the street, literally! By the way I was wearing sweatshirts and loose jeans! That was back in 1985. I was a bit concerned and asked the other American girls back at the hotel if they had the same problem and they did too. My last trip to Paris last year at the age of 37, proved to be almost the same as all my other trips there. When my husband crossed the street at the Arch de Triomphe to take pictures I had a man come over and try to pick me up in a matter of 2 mins! I am now used to it when in France. I know it is frightening at first, this is why you ask I am sure. So yes, indeed it is a very mature question to be concerned over strange men's advances. Hope this helps. <BR>

Sarah, that was a rather feeble attempt at a joke. And in the US, there is a word for someone who attributes a particular characteristic to an entire class of people: a bigot. <BR> <BR>But what is especially funny is that your generalization about American rudeness is, itself, quintessential rudeness. Welcome to the club.

Funny, I dont recall trying to make a joke in the first place. I'm stating that, all of you who are acting hostile to Becky's question, are most likely to be americans. Not all americans are rude, but people do make generalizations by just a couple members of a society. I feel that any culture can act rudely...whether you're British, american, German...whatever! Oh, and I'm not a bigot..I'm an american also!

Sarah...your comment implied that one should expect rudeness from Americans. How is such a generalization anything but rude itself? You've just categorized an entire nation of people as rude. <BR> <BR>While I do sometimes cringe when I see the behavior of some of my countrypeople abroad, poor behavior is not limited to Americans, nor do all (or even most) Americans behave poorly overseas. The rude ones are just the ones that get noticed; the multitudes of polite Americans pass unnoticed because one tends to notice rudeness, not common courtesy. <BR> <BR>And Sarah...simply because you're an American doesn't mean you can't make bigoted statements about your fellow Americans. So all Americans are rude...except you?

It seems to me that it's not too "intelligent" for a nearly naked 17-year old girl to be "playing" in a pool with a nearly naked strange man...

Go easy on her, my God she's 17. Remember when you were that age? You looked at life very differently. It seems that at that age Boys (Men) are more important than just about anything else. It wasn't but a few years ago that I went to Italy alone and met men literally everywhere I went. Several even saved me from being acosted by Gypsys. I met some absolutely fabulous men, and a few that weren't. Needless to say, I had the time of my life! Becky, just be careful. <BR>

THanks for the above statement!! If Becky wasnt in the pool playing water tag or whatever with a strange Frenchman, then she wouldnt have had that problem. Some girls that have no idea how foreign men can be sometimes, have to business going overseas. Doing international travel isnt for the extremely naive, as i have experienced.

Maybe Trisha, that is why Becky asked the question in the first place. In order to get advice from people like you who have experience. <BR> <BR>It is unfortunate that you resort to chastisement rather than just offering advice.

What bizarre, extreme reactions to a relatively innocuous question! Becky never indicated any lewd behaviour/dress on her part and doesn't warrant the amount of condescension, antagonism, or scolding that has been posted. As someone else mentioned, she was simply seeking reassurance and information - just like all the people who post messages about what clothing to wear, street crime, attitudes, etc. <BR> <BR>Based on some of these responses, you'd think traveling was reserved only for those who are mature and worldly enough to act appropriately. Bah, humbug!

Right on, Vickie! Some of these "moralists" are a bit much. But, then again, forum is not short of so-called experts is it!

Thanks Howard! <BR>Thanks to my experience, I know now what to do if someone is making me feel uncomfterable with his unwanted advances. I'll tell him "no" and if that doesn't work, a good little smack should get my message across. I am not an advocate of violence, but my mother told me that if you tell a man (or boy) "no" and he dosen't stop, you have every right to give him a little smack. <BR>this is just my opinion.

One other thing I noticed: One of the posters posted that I must "have not been very intelligent for a nearly naked 17 year old girl..." Excuse me, but I was not wearing a bikini or topless on a French beach. I was in a public pool wearing a conservative one-piece black bathing suit. I just thought of this: Is it possibe that in this moderen age that there is still a double standard for women? It seems that (just my opinon) that if a guy flirts or something it's a "boys will be boys", but if a girl does that, she's a harlot.

Becky, you might want to rethink your plan about giving a guy who won't stop coming on to you "a little smack." Not that said guy wouldn't necessarily deserve it--but unless you are prepared to physically defend yourself against an angry guy about whom you know absolutely nothing except that he won't take no for an answer, I'd say it's pretty unwise to provoke someone in that situation. (Particularly if you're overseas, where you are less familiar with everything from social customs to how the police work.) <BR> <BR>If a guy continues to pursue you after you've firmly declared "NO" (understood in all languages, particularly with the appropriate gesture(s) and/or facial expression), and you're starting to feel threatened or just extremely uncomfortable, your safest and smartest course of action is to either remove yourself from the situation (walk, don't run, away), or find some help. I'm told by women who've had harassment problems on European trains, for example, that they found their best option was to find one or more local women, preferably older and "mom"-like, and ask them for help. (Again, this kind of thing is easy to convey across language barriers, particularly if the guy's continuing to follow you.) <BR> <BR>By hitting a strange guy, you've just upped the stakes: bringing into it his manhood, his utterly unknown level of temper, the possibility that he is armed. I strongly advocate that women who travel (and women who don't travel as well, but particularly women travelling alone) learn how to physically defend themselves--but that doesn't mean it's wise to provoke a situation where physical self-defense is more likely to be necessary.

I wouldnt say you're a harlot, but I would say you were asking for trouble by playing in a swimming pool with a strange frenchman. I think men take the opportunity when they see that the female is interested. If you're laughing, giggling, and splashing water at him, etc., I think that would quality as flirting..and I'm sure he thought the same.

Becky you are an excellent troll.Keep it up.I am laughing my socks off. <BR>These Fodors people might think they know it all,but we know different!!!!

Oh, please. Hasn't your mother taught you not to lead a man on...? Common sense indicates that men everywhere of all ages will take advantage (at least make every effort) of a woman if given the opportunity!

Jeez people - lighten up! So, I guess Becky should never go swimming or have any kind of contact with a man? Or make sure she swims with all your clothes on. Please. <BR> <BR>She's asking a valid question - if you don't like it, don't post a response. And even if she wasn't, are the mean spirited responders so hardened they forgot how clueless we were back then. I never made it out of the country until my late twenties, so Bravo Becky, for an early start on the wonderful world of travel. <BR> <BR>Ignore the mean spirited folks and enjoy your travels.

I'm amazed, perhaps even appalled, that a good number of those most critical of Becky are women! For the sake of the victims, I hope none of you is ever on a jury in a rape or attempted rape case!

Well said, Howard!

Raleigh and Howard, how nice to see two men come to Becky's defense. I wholeheartedly agree with both of your posts. <BR> <BR>Let's see... <BR> Girl flies to France <BR>+runs into a situation she is unsure <BR> about <BR>+wants to know what to do in the <BR> future <BR>= a travel question for the Europe <BR> section on Fodors <BR>Seems logical to me. <BR>Becky, I give you credit for asking this question. <BR>How about the old adage 'there are no stupid questions, just stupid answers'? <BR> <BR>Kittie

<BR>Lighten up folks! If you don't like the question don't answer!!!! <BR> <BR>I got my "boob" grabbed from behind at dinner in the Dominican Republic. I had my back turned and was at dinner with 2 other females and 2 males...was I asking for it too???? I was not 17 but 33...I laughed it off but it was not welcome and shocked the men at my table! <BR> <BR>Unfortunately men seem to feel that women on vacation often are "looking for it".

i AGREE, lighten up. While in Italy in Naples, I had my boob grabbed while riding a bus, they guy did it as he was getting off the bus, and when I looked at him after he did it, he winked at me. Another time, while in Naples again, the bus was very crowded, and I was with my friends on our way to the beach. I wondered why this guy behind me kept pushing into me, and then a light went off in my head, and I figured it out. Last year, while in Naples again, I was waiting for my husband to get our car and was waiting in front of our hotel, and a guy approached me to have coffee with me, and said thanks, but no thanks, he would not take no for an answer, I told him I was married and he would not leave me alone till my husband came with the car. They are an aggressive bunch!

I'm keeping out of the whole "is-this-a-valid-travel-question" debate in the interest of not promoting a flame-war, but I do have two cents to add about avoiding unwanted advances, especially in Europe. Based on my experieces, I urge Becky, and other females, NOT to ever give an unwanted suitor "a little slap", or any expression of anger or disgust, unless you come to a point where you have NO option but to physically defend yourself (ie. if you're actually being assaulted). I have found many European men (esp. in Italy) to have much more pride than American guys and become quite easily angered when they are rejected rudely. The best bet to is to handle unwanted advances with a sense of humour, to try to pleasantly brush guys off. I know that it is invasive to be touched by strange men and that it can make you feel really angry - but the goal here is to discourage the man as safely as possible and to walk away unharmed...not to assert your own self-respect and make a statement. You can't blame a guy for trying (especially if you're attractive, ladies!), so unless he becomes overly persistent, why not try being pleasant about the experience and letting him down easy? KK

Kimberley: *YES*. Thanks so much for reinforcing that "giving a guy a little smack" if his attentions are obnoxious/unwanted is *not* a safe or smart idea. Whether he's European, American, or from yet another area of the globe, a guy who's the type to push himself on you past the point that you become uncomfortable is probably also the type who would react *very very badly* to getting hit, in any way, by a woman. <BR> <BR>Best bet is always to try to *de*escalate the situation (hitting is escalating), or get out of it entirely.

I only read this thread and not the original, so I'm a little hazy on what the question actually was, but how's this for aggressive European men: when I was 20 I took an overnight train from Paris to Venice by myself. I got a compartment all to myself, or so I thought. I was fully clothed, under a towel or jacket, I can't remember, and had secured the door. I woke up as we were crossing the border into Italy not because a conductor was coming to check my passport, but because a strange Italian man, in his 20's from the look of him, was kissing me on the mouth! As I was still groggy and spoke very little Italian I was completely at a loss. I just acted totally confused and when he asked in broken english if it was nice, I think I said something vaguely complimentary and asked him to leave. He did, and I honestly have to say I never felt in any danger of being raped, which is possibly a real inability to judge character. <BR> <BR>You may be saying, my fault for going to sleep, but I swear I thought the door was locked.... <BR> <BR>So then, the next day while in Venice with a friend, I celebrated my 21st birthday in Piazza San Marco. Two Italian men, again 20somethings, approached us, began chatting in very broken english, and telling us how beautiful we were, then my guy started kissing me and when I pulled away suggested we go to the Lido beach to continue celebrating. I said I had to call my parents to say hi and my friend and I ran to a phone booth and both crammed in. The guys followed us and waited as I pantomimed calling people for a good ten minutes! Finally they left! <BR> <BR>I was at the time incredibly nerdy looking, not at all sexily dressed, not drinking, and certainly not flirting with anyone. At no other point in any of my travels has anything similar occurred. I therefore have formed the opinion that Italian men are more sexually aggressive than Americans. (But I repeat, I never felt so threatened I would have hit the guy or yelled for the police, and I certainly enjoy telling the story now that I've stopped shaking.)

While I agree in theory that it's not advisable to slap strange men, I'm not sure how I could control myself if some man was to grab my boob. I'm sure, if I was quick enough, my instinct would be to do more than give a little slap. Unwanted advances are one thing, but that's an assault. Then again, best intentions aside, I would probably be in such a state of shock that I wouldn't react quickly enough. Certainly at home, in Sydney, I would practice my martial arts on anyone who tried such a thing, wise or not. <BR>

Hey Beck! Why not 'post' your picture (in your black swimsuit) and let US decide if HE was a Frenchman Pig, Huh? <BR>Ha! Ha! Ha! I'll bet EVEN an old, ugly, married guy like me would have (at least been tempted to) hit on you!!! I am sympathetic though, as I have a fourteen year old, that I worry about, running into a guy like I used to be! Ha! Ha! Ha! Enjoy the looks and "hits" as they won't always be there... <BR> <BR>Mr. "C"

I'm really surprised at the responses to this and to the original thread. I find the advice to be much too undecisive. Here is what I would suggest. <BR> <BR>At the first unwelcome act, there should be a notice to the man that his act is not welcome. The severity of this "notice" should depend on the severity of the act. For instance, if a man whistles and makes a comment, it is appropriate to roll your eyes and shake your head, or shake your head and add a scolding finger (I mean as you would a child, not THE finger). Sometimes it can even be done with a slight wry smile, but not an inviting smile. <BR> <BR>If the first unwelcome act is more serious, like unwanted non-sexual touching (blocking your path, holding you by the arm, or similar), then a more severe first "notice" should be given. A stern "stop it" with an angry look is appropriate. <BR> <BR>If the first unwelcome act is even more serious, like sexual touching or aggressive behavior, then the "notice" can indeed be physical in nature. In the days of yore, a woman would slap a man across the face (the proverbial little slap). I don't recommend this, because it is largely ineffective and mostly meant to insult. In this day and age, some men see nothing wrong with returning the slap with more force. <BR> <BR>Rather, I would suggest that you learn basic defensive moves that are consistent with the behavior. Learn how to immediately free yourself from someone's grip. Learn how to divert sexual touching. And learn how to take the offense if the guy gets more aggressive. <BR> <BR>I don't make a habit of going around in fighting stance! And it is best to make the first response to a lighthearted act, also lighthearted. <BR> <BR>But I don't ever recommend laughing it off, or running away. Women and girls, learn how to feel comfortable with your strength so that you can protect yourself if things get carried away! <BR>