Thyra, I too always try to learn a few phrases, but I always suspect that smile I get is to cover up their thought, "oh, my God, I've never heard anyone butcher our language so badly before." In any case, I still get a smile and a friendly reaction like, "oh, well, at least you tried."

I knew my message would draw a few comments and am pleased that so many of you have had nothing but great, fantastic experiences in Italy. <BR> <BR>Thanks Elaine for noticing that I did say we had a good time. my intent in posting this was to provide some realism to all the posts I see about how great the Italian people are. Yes we too had some help along the way but not from anybody involved in the tourist industy. Thanks Cheri for observing that I was talking about people in the tourism industry. Gee Joe, so much hostility!! No, I think we all go to the same Italy. <BR> <BR>I don't mean to provoke additional excited comments from those of you who love Italy and go back every year. We have lived in the Orient 5 years, Europe 3 years and visited most European and Asian countries, some we would and have gone back to, others we would not, all have been enjoyable experiences. I guess what I am saying is that with so many great places to visit why would one want to return year after year to the same place? We enjoyed Italy but would not return. <BR> <BR> <BR>

Although I *definitely* don't agree with Terry's take on Italy, I'm glad he offered his opinion *with* his name & e-mail address rather than an anonymous posting. I believe (sorry Terry the memory's fading:) I've either responded to his posts and/or possibly e-mailed him info before he left so his name/e-mail is a valid one. And I appreciate his honesty here, even if he did go to the wrong Italy:))). Regards, Walter <BR>

Patrick, Oh I am sure they are giggling at my weird murder of their native language, but I laughing myself, so at least, right off the bat, we have something in common.

Hey Terry, <BR>I'm thinkin a goin a New Yawk. I won't use Steve's guide since you say it don't tell all. Is New Yawk like Florence - a nice town, larger than Sorrento good wine and food -what's a good buy? Whoodja talk to about Sienna since nobody speaks English in Italy? <BR>Were you walkin on the canals in Venice? Are they that cruddy? Where do you live, I wanna go there. Everywhere I been someone's after my money. If their not where you are that's where I wanna be. Do I gotta buy guidebooks for New Yawk's museums? Arn't the signs in Italian? Why not? I thought New Yawk was a tourist city since everybody there's out to get your money. Where ya gonna go next? How much toilet tissue do you think you'll need?

Message: Elaine - am sure glad we went to your Italy and not Terry's. We encountered one pushy Italian waiter in 18 days and the rest of "the Italians" were delightful. Maybe because we tried to use "their" language, albeit in a very limited manner. Ours was a 9.5 trip on a 10 scale - sorry, Terry

This post addresses a problem that I've noticed many times, and may of us are guilty of it. We visit a city (or even country) once for a day and become "experts," giving sweeping generalizations sometimes way off the mark, based on personal interests, biases, experiences that may be of little help to the rest of us. A good guidebook or two, with fact-checkers and professional writers is still an important base. Many of us put down the guidebooks, but we do, obviously have to watch taking advice solely from well-meaning fellow travelers who may be way, way off. And all of us should evaluate our impressions carefully before giving blanket putdowns. The forum is great, I love it, but be discerning in giving and getting.

I think the same should apply to people who are overly enthusiastic about a place. I love Italy, but on this board it's almost sacred. Everyone gushes about Italy so much that it's no wonder some people are let down. Some people are so excited about just taking a trip that anything would seem great to them. Not knocking that, but some realism is also helpful.

I've noticed on this forum that when someone loves a destination everyone is buddy-buddy.When someone doesn't have a perfect "Fodorite" type holiday and dares to tell that person is torn to shreds on this forum.

IMO the last two posters miss the point of the criticisms of the original poster. The point is not that Terry didn't like Italy as much as we do/did. It's the way he presented his comments that caused the strong responses.

I don't think Terry is being ripped to shreds for his comments on *specific* experiences - his comments on Siena, or that Venice can be done in a day are not in contention (they are his opinions based on his experience). Others have offered their opinions in contrast. What becomes a problem is the blanket statements like "there is very little in Venice off the beaten path"...if Terry feels that Venice can be done in one day, then there's no way he had the chance to explore the city well enough to make that statement. When he starts to give advice based on extrapolating from minimum experience, I have a problem. Cautionary notes such as "in our experience, we found English not widely spoken" is a lot different than "Do not expect a lot of help with directions, again English is limited". Rebuttal from travelers with many trips to Italy is to be expected. If someone went to the Louvre and said "I'm not an art fan, so I really didn't find it worth my while" is one thing; I'd have to respond if someone posted "I didn't find any paintings in the Louvre, so don't bother to go".

Gee, Terry. I'll bet your other big mistake was voting for GORE!

Gosh, Lara, I shudder to think what your big mistakes were/are! One of them certainly is posting that inane comment!

Terry, I understand that you were talking about people in the tourism industry...and I still have to disagree with your comments about everyone "without exception" being "rude, curt, non smiling, and very unhelpful." (Boy, talk about a blanket generalization!) One can find rude people everywhere, but even in Venice, where I would *expect* everyone to be sick to death of tourists since they live in a fishbowl 24-7, I found waiters, shop staff, staff at the various attractions, etc., quite pleasant. I can only think of one unpleasant restaurant experience, and even there the waiters were quite nice...as they ripped us off. But that was our own fault--we were in a rush to catch our train, and ducked into a place on the Lista di Spagna that had a "tourist menu" advertised outside. We knew better! <BR> <BR>But many of my fond memories of Italy will be of the people I met, *including* and especially people whose primary business was working with travelers in some way or another. I had a great fit of the giggles with the aforementioned young woman in the glass shop when I asked her about how frustrating it must be to live in the Italian equivalent of Disney World, and we compared morning commutes--Washington highways vs. the jam-packed vaporetto. <BR> <BR>I think Elvira put it best. No one's questioning Terry's, or anyone else's, right to have their own opinion of a place, even if it seems out of kilter with what many others have experienced; but when someone makes a blanket, "without exception" declaration that people are rude, that there is no "off the beaten path" in Venice (after having been there for one day and night), and that one should not attempt to learn any Italian, then those declarations are going to be challenged because, well, they're pretty off base.

Though this thread was created some time ago, I felt compelled to reply.

I just returned from a month long trip through Italy and I felt much the way Terry did during my trip.

I tried to speak Italian-carrying a phrase book with me everywhere-but received impatience and annoyance when my pronunciation was not perfect.

I felt like people in tourism or otherwise did not wish to be helpful and actually revelled in tourists' misfortune at times. We were crossing a busy street in Rome with our bags and dropped a folder of papers-our itineraries and such-and people actually stepped on them and laughed! A woman on the plane back to the states told me that Italians had got in front of their kayak in Amalfi and blocked their way after noticing that they were having trouble navigating.

People gave us clearly wrong directions-pointing the opposite direction we were supposed to go-ignored us when we tried to ask questions-and seemed generally annoyed that we didn't know how to do everything-like use the payphone-immediately.

My biggest frustration is that when I tell people about my trip, their response is that there is something wrong with me. I couldn't have not liked Italy.

There were certainly parts I enjoyed very much-the scavi tour, uffizi gallery, and much of venice. And it enrages me that the assumption is that I'm an ignorant, demanding, fussy tourist who must have agitated the people there. I have traveled a lot before and know how to be polite and make friends.

Luckily, I did make a few. Most of the time, people were not outwardly mean, and I did meet some very nice people. But I broke down and wept when the plane left the ground in Rome headed to Frankfurt. I was so glad to be leaving a place where I felt so uncomfortable.

My trip to Italy was my least favorite and I will not return. I hope others have a better experience there than I did.

Jennhawk, I'm sorry you didn't have a good time. To put your comments in perspective, I'm interested in knowing where you have gone on vacation that you really LOVED???

All those italians hated you, the moment they saw you in the street, everybody was thinking: &quot;Oh my god it's jennhawk, how i hate this person&quot;. Can't help you with this one, hope you feel better next time away from home...

Some people just have no clue how to travel and enjoy the places they visit. I think Terry has tunnel vision (no offense) and didn't take the time to savor.

jennhawk, that is deeply discouraging. i’ve always wanted to go to Italy, Venice to be exact and do the tourist bit there in ’07. i guess, i’ll have to read up more, do more research, etc. there's obviously two sides here. thanks for the input.

Don't you always encounter surly people and nice, helpful people even in your hometown? Don't you just ignore them? The point I think your missing is that these types of people exist everywhere and the key is to not expect any differnet and to not let it ruin your trip OR to associate that type of behaviour with Italy alone (or where ever you happen to be).