Just Curious
 

Has anyone else found some of the responders on this forum to be almost condescending versus helpful? I must admit that while I have seen some very helpful responses to hundreds of posts, others are almost bordering on rude. I've also noticed a certain arrogance in many responses. Case in point: someone recently requested suggestions for Munich - it is the person's first trip ever to Europe- and one person cautioned the first timer to avoid Neuschwanstein because it's so "touristy." I was really disappointed with that. I mean, it's the person's first time ever in Germany and he/she is being told to "avoid" something really spectacular because other (GASP) tourists might also wish to see it and (GASP) there might be a lot of people. Is it that these folks just want to hear themselves talk?

Some people are not able to get away for more than one trip per decade or perhaps lifetime. They are paying a lot of money for a trip to Europe (or wherever) and they would like to see a variety of cities and famous landmarks. Sometimes the only time they can go is in the middle of July or the end of December. I was once told to completely avoid Italy altogether because I could only go in June. I mean, how ridiculous! I am a school teacher and that's the only two week stretch I get. So I guess I should never visit the the
Mediterranean? I just find it condescending to suggest to people seeking ideas that 1 week in Bavaria or Rome is "simply not enough" and that the the Sistine Chapel is overrated or that a famous German castle is too "touristy". Really? While some tips are extraordinarily helpful, I have found myself avoiding this particular forum and wondered if anyone else had found some of the comments condescending.

Depends.
This is a forum that more or less summarizes personal, subjective experiences.
Obviously, for every person who likes Neuschwanstein, you find another one who hates it. That's life.

If someone wants a neutral approach w/o personal bias they can buy one or two travel guides and should consult (and pay) a professional travel agent.

You post here for opinions and you get them. You don't have to follow anyone's advice. Personally I would not go to a hot climate in June. It's up to each person to decide when they can and do go on a trip. If you don't want opinions then don't post to and don't read this forum (or other travel forums).

I think the Sistine Chapel is over rated. It's loud and difficult to see the frescoes. I've seen many other frescoes in Italy that were just as wonderful and more accessible and not located in a noisy chapel.

Sometimes responses are arrogant or bordering on rudeness but look at the questions that are posted here. It completely baffles me why some people choose to visit locations yet have absolutely no idea what there is to do once they arrive. Why are they spending the money to get there? And how can anyone reach adulthood and have no idea what is in the major capital cities such as Rome, London, or Paris. Didn't they ever study history in school? Haven't they ever looked at a guide book (free from libraries)?

What about the posters who ask "is xyz town safe?" Or they want a safe location to stay or is it safe to walk around a certain town. That's rude. It intimates that European locations are rampant with drive by shootings or muggings or other crime and they won't make it home alive. I remember one poster who thought it wasn't safe to walk anywhere in France after dark. That's not condescending?

I enjoy the helpful posts and am amused at the sarcastic posts and absolutely hate the stupid, stupid posts, of which there are many.

It is difficult to gain extraordinarily useful inputs without encountering extraordinarily offensive inputs.

Entrepreneurial classes teach students that the opportunities and risks are often next to each other or the different faces of the same thing. I believe this is why polite forums, guide books, etc, are often tasteless -- they may not be offensive but also not useful.

In a forum like this, people come offering and looking for different value propositions. To gain that one helpful info, one must weed through a pile of postings with polarized subjective opinions not relevant to the value proposition one seeks.

Everybody comes to this forum with a different set of life experiences and expectations. Such is life. And yes, there are some people who border on rude, and then there is the issue of tone - sometimes tone doesn't come through very well on forums.

I think you are being a bit too sensitive. This board is about opinions. Some you will agree with and others you won't. There are some people with attitude, but many times people assume attitude when none was intended.

I posted on a thread last week because someone asked a question on an old thread. The OP on the thread had not been on the site in a couple of months and I wondered if the thread was about an older experience/trip as I had been to the same place recently and had a much different experience (the person asking the question had made a reservation for this place). The OP happened to log back on and was furious that I posted my experience. I'm not sure how anyone could be offended by someone wondering if their experience was longer ago and things had changed (room set up, etc. had changed from their description). It seemed to me as the OP was just overly sensitive and that someone else would not have seen the post as offensive at all. It benefits people to have recent knowledge to make decisions.

Sometimes internet posts come across short unintentionally, but it often depends on the reader and their current mood how a post is taken.

Fodors has a bunch of people who continually attempt to impute failure in others. Ignore them.

I can only travel to Europes once every few years and love the, sometimes condensending, advice from travels who travel there all the time. While my budget is nowhere near as high as most people on this forum, they can still offer advice on food/loding/travel.

You have to take advice with a grain of salt and do what works best for you and your family, they are just making sure you are prepared for what you are going to encounter.

There are all kinds of people on this forum. Some people's personalities and sense of humor click better than others. Some appreciate the very postings to which others object.

You just have to get a feel for the perspective of the poster and take that advice which is useful or interesting to you, knowing that there are other posts you will find useless, condescending or clueless that other people may see in a very different light.

Yes, I agree with OP. There is a gang of oldtimers on fodors that tend to gang up on newbies and bully them with their limited knowledge. However, there are some nice people here and occasionally you get a good piece of advice.

A lot of us are Jekyll and Hyde characters, depending on our mood, the quality of the question and the phases of the moon.

I agree that sometimes the tone is interpreted. I think most of us want to be helpful thats why we are here.

For those of us that have been around a while it can be frustrating to get the same questions asked over and over (I have stopped responding to Oyster questions in London as there is a plethora of threads about it and a simple search will easily bring them up) and get frustrated by the lack of effort some people put in before posting a question.

But I do think most of us are trying to be helpful - mood and tone are difficult to 'get' over the board.

This is an open public forum. Anyone posting a question can anticipate getting answers that are, mainly, quite helpful. However, as in any public arena, some people will have specific points of view - and phrase information in a way that others may feel to be condescending.

They may or may not mean it to be so. It may be perceived so, even if it is not intended to be so.

Differences of opinion are inevitable. And no one should take them personally, unless responses are overtly rude.

And agree that posts from some first timers - who sometimes make no attempt to find even the most basic information on their own - can be very frustrating to people who give freely of their own time to advise others.

I could mention the people who were determined to wear shorts and tank tops to churches in Italy - despite advice from many posters that this was considered disrespectful and they would be turned away from some large ones. They refused to listen to the advice and INSISTED on their right to do what they wanted. The kicker: they were planning on going to italy in January - when they wold freeze in shorts and tank tops - in church or out! Things like this can mean some posters may sound a little "short" with some newbies.

I am far more of a "lurker" here and on other travel forums then I am a poster. I have been guilty in the past of coming here for info, but not coming back to share my experiences when I return. I've joined, dropped out and rejoined this forum, probably 4 times.

The posters that come here and respond frequently have nothing but my respect and admiration. It takes time to respond to people, even more time to post a trip report. That they are willing to give their time and share their experiences is a very generous thing to do.

I understand that they are giving opinions. No one has to take any advice that they don't like or that doesn't fit in with their own personal likes and dislikes. You can use what works for you and leave the rest.

Even for the short time I have been reading here on the Italy forum I am noticing many of the same questions asked over and over. That the regulars bother to respond at all sometimes surprises me.

So, sign me....

Thankful

CindyP.

Remember high school? What do you think happened to "mean girls" and bullies? Just sift the info ignoring those who show off their superiority.

E ray 13 Do not hesitate to go to Italy in June if you want to and if that is the time of the year you are free to travel. You'll find gorgeous landscapes and probably great weather.
Even Italians do go on holiday in their own country(to the seaside,to the beach to artistic cities to the countrysides, to the gorgeous lakes(especially lake Como ,Maggiore and Garda)because they too have holidays in summer like everybody else... the only con is that of standing in queues to visit sites, but other than that you'll just be fine!

Besides It's not true that one week in Rome is not enough.
I mean: a BBC journalist based in Rome once said that after spending half of his life in "the city of the Popes" he had barely scratched the surface of the city, and thatì's true of course but in order to see the sites, to get a feel of the city and to have a stroll in the most beautiful areas, well one week is more than enough to do that.
I hope you'll go to Italy

"wondered if anyone else had found some of the comments condescending."

Many times, especially concerning my little corner of France when self-proclaimed experts who happened to have briefly driven through the area feel entitled to dismiss whole areas as "not worthy" and to praise places where I would never think of going. Sometimes I wonder if they are referring to the same place I live in :-))

This thread reminds me of the time I took some days ago to read all the Yelp restaurant reviews of the restaurants and cafes in my city. It was very interesting. Some people enjoyed the same places that I have and others moaned and groaned about their experiences. One cafe in particular had me chuckling. From my experience their servers are over the top helpful, friendly and the coffee mug is always filled up. There is more food served than most people can eat. The prices are very reasonable. But a few people posted that their food server was rude and unhelpful, there was not enough food served and the prices were outrageous. Who is correct? Who knows. Perhaps the grumps went to the cafe when the regular server was off sick? Perhaps the grumps want more food than two people need? Again, who knows.

Anyway, I too am always amazed that many Fodorites take the time to answer the same questions over and over again such as "how do I get to my hotel in Venice from the airport?" or "should I bring US dollars to Europe and how should I get Euros?" or "how do I get from the airport in Rome to my hotel in Rome?" and so forth an so on. Very patient and helpful Fodorites.

I have sometimes read advice that I do not agree with but unless it is absolutely wrong information I don't respond as who am I to say that the person didn't experience their miserable experience. Or that something/some place I don't care for was not enjoyed by another person.

Regarding people that post that they are going to such and such a place and "what is there to see and do?" I tend to ignore those as I don't truly understand why a person wouldn't have a clue why they are traveling to a place, our libraries have travel books and the internet sure can be a wealth of information. But perhaps some do not know how to do any research I guess.

Anyway, my feeling is just ignore the posts you don't like and be thankful for the good information you can obtain here on Fodor's, E-Ray.

Ditto LoveItaly,

Every week some newbie writes "what is there to do in Amsterdam?" or "is Paris safe?" or "where do we stay in Madrid?" It is a waste of time to reply, though I usually reply to the Amsterdam questions with a "see the search box above."

The OP should have been here in the good old days before registration kicked in. This forum was a piranha pond.

Spaarne, before registration I use to sometimes click on Fodor's and read some of the posts. I thought "good grief", I guess you could say I was a lurker and I never posted as I didn't have the time to spare. I rather forgot about Fodor's until way after registration took place. I do remember the preregistration days, lol.

Wholeheartedly agree with the OP.

Many responses have claimed that Forums are about opinions and you have to take the useful and supportive posts along with the selfish and offensive. Greg probably said it most succinctly (I'm going to use this one, Greg);

"It is difficult to gain extraordinarily useful inputs without encountering extraordinarily offensive inputs.

How can I agree with both statements? Well, I think there is a big distinction between someone who is ASKING for an opinion or critique on an itinerary, destination, etc., and someone who has come to ask for specific advice on a trip that is already planned, or something with clear parameters that they must operate within.

If somebody wants an opinion, let 'er rip. I don't care if you say you hate some place I would like to go to die. I find that fascinating and it is part of what makes us so interesting. It is also very useful to a third party, if it comes with some reasoning, because they can place their own likes, dislikes, and hopes for the vacation into the context of the response. For, example, if I express that I like like half-timber framed buildings and you simply think they look stupid, then you have some context for processing my opinion on places to visit that I find fascinating because of those buildings. On a related note, I really really don't like Paris.

What I find offensive is when an OP asks a specific question - something with their plans grounded in place and time, either through necessity, or desire. Something where it is clear that they are not asking for a critique, or a recommendation. It is very easy to identify the distinction between opinion requests and specific queries. What invariably happens is some posters chime in suggesting something entirely different. Most times kindly, but often dripping with condescension. What on earth makes people think that directing someone to have the vacation they want them to have rather than the one the OP really wants baffles me. They can broadly be classified as the;

"Know It Alls" - whether they have been to the area once, live there, or have experiences somewhere in between, they are going to set you right because you just don't know right, they do, and you will enjoy yourself more if you listen to them. These folks are closely related to the "Meddling Parents" - those grandparents who offer all the wonderful advice to their children, without being asked, about how their grandchildren should be raised.

"Do What I Dids!" - those who need the validation of their personal choices by encouraging others to do what they did, and love what they love. This forum becomes the online equivalent for those folks of having the neighbours over to watch their home movies or flip through the photo albums with them.

I know, I know, everyone is just trying to help and has good intentions. Unfortunately ,egomania and the seeking of validation all to often use good intentions as a cover for their ultimately selfish goals.

Again, if responders would recognize a request for an opinion as different from a request for some specific logistic advice, and respond accordingly (we don't want to answer what was asked, right? That serves the OP best) we would see fewer people feeling the need to complain about steamrolled by "good intentions"

I do think that most are trying to be helpful but there are a few who always seem to have a bit of an attitude with a lot of their replies.

I hope that people don't need to berate others for not knowing (that's the point of the posts). Ignore the ones you think are rude. No one wants to tongue lashed for asking a question. (Steve Martin saying Excuuuuussse Meee, comes to mind :-) )!

One drawback to trying/reading, is there is no way to know someone's intent; even if it is meant to be funny or tongue in cheek, when it's just back and white words, it can come across differently than intended.

It's not that difficult. There are people with no knowledge about a place, getting advice from people with very limited knowledge about that same place, which they may have visited a number of times and believe to know. When in fact they are not even able to spell its name. LOL

It's only a very small number of areas and towns around witch the threads revolve.
People will not visit or even care to visit other maybe even more interesting places. So there is basically no exchange of real info in the forum.

Only very infrequently you do find something new that another fodorite has discovered, like a free campground in Franconia,
a area unknown to 95% of Fodorites due to lack of interest.

There are so many places I could take this logos......

I love these forums, the people and all the great info I get. The info has made many trips much better and far more successful. If it doesn't suit- go elsewhere.

Wow - I LOVED reading all of these responses...you guys are great!! Aramis, I think you clarified something for me that I knew but somehow didn't verbalize before:

"Well, I think there is a big distinction between someone who is ASKING for an opinion or critique on an itinerary, destination, etc., and someone who has come to ask for specific advice on a trip that is already planned, or something with clear parameters that they must operate within."

Aramis - Your descriptions of the various "posters" were both humorous and dead-on.

Feda - thank you :) I plan on enjoying - "touristy" or not.

I understand that many of you feel that the same questions are asked again and again. Who knows? Perhaps the people don't understand how to type key terms into the search forum. Perhaps they weren't impressed with previous answers and decided to conduct their own inquiry. Again, I am not sure. But I love the people who jump down the OPs' throats and tell them that these same questions have already been answered a thousand times. I wonder how necessary that is?

Adrienne - you have to remember that many people on here live in their safe suburbs in anywhere America. Cities are scary to them. I hate to admit this myself, but I felt really stressed out on a recent trip to San Fran because I am not used to clutching my purse so tightly and using public transportation. I live in your stereotypical bedroom community and I drive everywhere- having to worry about losing my purse or miss a bus is uncomfortable to me the first few days of a trip. So when you write that OPs who ask if something is "safe" is condescending, I am not sure I can agree with that. I think in many cases they are legitimately concerned. I will say, in fairness, that I have yet to encounter overly stupid posts. I usually read the ones that inquire about time frames/cities.

The point of this post was just to see reactions to my thoughts. It was mixed as expected. I am just glad to see I am not alone in my perceptions. I am very grateful to the people who are willing to provide so much information with grace. I guess I will just continue to laugh and roll my eyes at the more supercilious posters.

Thanks again for all the feedback!!

ERAY

PS - I was pondering on another post about the irony of rude Europeans and their feelings towards "ugly Americans" but perhaps I will save that for a column and get paid for my thoughts! :)

PS- we have a school teacher in our family also and suffer many a hot trip. I dream of the day we can go in May or Sept or anytime but July and August!

Italyagain - you have no idea! I suppose I could get away over spring break at the end of March, but it's a week and I hate to be gone longer than that. I just try to be grateful that we still have a summer vacation at this point. Plus, I am a Floridian, so I am sure I can handle Italy's heat more than most :) 100 degrees? No sweat! (well, actually...)

I think one of the value of this site is enabling people to ask seemingly same questions again and again. What is then the thesis? Should the seemingly same question be give the same answer every time? I think that would diminish the value of this site.

The same question can be answered emphasizing the different pros and cons of approaches. The sequence of the responders influences a particular aspect of the question posed. The same responder can also post a different approach to the same question at different times perhaps prompted by how others responded. Same questions posed at different time of the year can be relevantly responded incorporating the special events taking place at the time or the diminished activities at certain destinations. A single answer covering all conceivable angles would likely to be too voluminous to be useful as well going out of date as soon as it gets posted.

This has been an interesting discussion, and I love that it has been a discussion, sharing thoughts and ideas in a back and forth manner, without digressing into a bashing of any particular comment. That is a testament to the value of this forum and accepting the not so useful along with the useful.

In reference to the topic of repeat questions, that is going to be the nature of the beast. While many here are regulars and fish the forum for knowledge on an ongoing basis, there are going to be "newbies" and others not familiar with the search technique. Some will simply not have the time to sort through pages of threads covering 3 years of experience just to find the specific information they need, or sometimes to not find the info they need.

As so well put by Greg, maybe by reasking the question, a new respondant can add something new to the subject. Simply a case of the right person at the right time sort of thing. Along a similar line of thinking, I sometimes see a question that I have an answer for, but if my response would be simply a duplicate of info already given, I see no need to repeat it.

This forum is a wealth of information--and opinion. I enjoy and appreciate both.

E_Ray13, Aramis, and greg,

Blah, blah, blah. When someone comes on this forum and doesn't know where Paris is they deserve to be told to get a map and a guide book. How about questions like what is the *best way* to get from CDG to an un-named hotel in *downtown* Paris. I roll my eyes. That statement comes up once a week. People should do some homework before becoming a fool in public. Maybe you should coach the newbies instead of lecturing those who know what they are talking about. Do not be envious of Fodorites who have been there and done that, know more than you do, and are more than willing in a vicarious manner to help people who also help themselves with some inkling of what they want.

spaarne;

We rest our case.

E_Ray - I'm laughing about the "safe suburbs!" I also live in the suburbs and one day I'm sure that I'll be run over in the supermarket parking lot by some woman driving an SUV and talking on her cell phone. It's been close quite a few times!

And there's trying to cross a street in the "safe suburbs" - another entire topic. It's safer to cross a street in Rome! Maybe that's why I think it's so silly to ask if a place millions of tourists visit is safe, especially since the posters never mention what they're worried about.

out of the many, many posters here, there are only a few with 'attitude" who give newbies a hard time.

you are right, cigalechanta, many posters are nice. I just remember planning a trip to London around Christmas time last year and getting some feedback from frequent posters about how stupid it was to travel to London on Christmas. it turned out to be an excellent trip, but I spent quite a few days beforehand worrying about it and dreading the consequences of my decisions because of what some posters said.

<i>adrienne on Jun 7, 11 at 10:41pm
E_Ray - I'm laughing about the "safe suburbs!" I also live in the suburbs and one day I'm sure that I'll be run over in the supermarket parking lot by some woman driving an SUV and talking on her cell phone. It's been close quite a few times! </i>

I am not laughing. A woman in an SUV nearly sandwiched me between her monster and a Pontiac in the local Ace hardware store on May 13. She said that her foot got stuck on the gas pedal but she must have been going 40 MPH. My Guardian Angel saved me again.

Again, I do think a lot of this has to do with mis-interpretation.

When someone posts - I am going to London or Paris or Rome or even better Italy or France or Germany for 2 weeks - what sites should I see and what should I do?? - I usually pop on and very efficiently ask them to put in more details (interests, where they come from, why they chose the place budgets etc) and that they have to give us more to work with if they want help. Also, they should get a good guide book and research what interests them - then we can help them organize their time.

Now is that snappy? curt? helpful? I mean it to be helpful, to get them to post info that will help them get the help they want - but I am not going to spend a lot of time composing an answer. If they dont put the time into researching what they want to do then why should I spend my time doing it for them??

Same with repeat questions - if they are new, usually someone points them to the search buttom - rude? I think its helpful for them to learn to use it. Maybe tone doesnt come across right...but they will find a wealth of info if they just search. Like I said, I've stopped posting on repeat questions that ask the same thing. If there is something specific that differs in their situation or request I have no problem helping out, but if its a standard question that has a standard answer now I just let someone else respond.

I think its actually a very small percentage of posters that can come across as rude.

What I think is mysterious is when a poster embarking on his first trip to anywhere says he wants to travel "off the beaten track." That track is beaten for a reason!

I can go to Italy any month and often choose June - the weather is reliably sunny but not as hot as July or August, and the greenery is still fresh.

Jamikins wrote :
> Again, I do think a lot of this has to do with mis-interpretation.

I tend to agree. For example : I read the thread by RainyDay09 "London for Christmas & New Year". I didn't see anymody called her or her trip to London during that period "stupid". Posters gave lots of informations (difficuly with transportion, closed sites & shops, etc). Did she intepret those as "stupid"??? Or maybe I read the thread too quickly and missed something. On the other hand, she did not thank (maybe that's her style - as she says she is young ... - maybe i'm too old fashioned to care about such trivial matters?) nor gave any report later.