To return ... we're in the early stages of planning our first visit to Italy, and this story hasn't dampened my enthusiasm at all.

Finding it puzzling that anyone would in effect write a blank cheque to a restaurant I could only conclude that something very peculiar happened somewhere between the listed menu prices and the final bill and that, not to put too fine a point on it, this place is an outright scam.

I decided that il Passeto must be, on a grander scale, the soulmate of the place in Zhouzhuang, China, that succeeded in doubling every menu price while preparing our bill.

As for the quality of the meal: the most expensive dinner I've had was the superb 13-course degustation menu at Tetsuya's in Sydney. Currently that will set you back the equivalent of €320 with wines for two people (most diners would add a 10% tip to that). Tetsuya's, however, ranks No 17 in the S. Pellegrino World's 50 Best Restaurants list, which it seems is a whole lot more than you can say for il Passetto.

But LoveItaly - if your SIL got scammed maybe I should be extra wary in Rome?

hello to everyone,
sorry for my bad English.
In italy we are not all equal.
we have a large number of people who work honestly and know the value of services.
my advice is to learn before buy a service.
Gennaro
http://rentalbikevenice.blogspot.com

Neil_Oz - I wouldn't write a blank check perhaps, but when things are "market price" I'm not always obsessive about finding out exactly how much the rate is, much less just how much that fish weighs. Throw in a possible language barrier and perhaps currency confusion, one might easily be surprised at the bill.

The problem, to my mind, is that this seems to go beyond surprise at the bill. There is a difference between market price and EUR 700 for lunch. Even taking at face value the claims of the owner about what was ordered, I just don't come up with that kind of number.

And that is where people get in trouble sometimes. I mean, I have a good idea of what things <i>should</i> cost and don't tend to sweat every last penny. This leads me to sometimes be a little less vigilant about the details of the cost. Throw in a shady businessman and you have a recipe for something more than an unpleasant surprise.

Pezlie - the Michelin guides are helpful, but not without their detractors. The reputation is that they favor more classical European cuisine and that the ratings, though supposedly strictly about the food, are overly influenced by service and ambience. When they finally did a Tokyo guide, many restaurants supposedly refused to be included. Still, I think it safe to say that most places with a Michelin star are going to be quite good and that the complaints often seem to be relatively minor quibbles about why one restaurant has one, while another two. No guide will capture every place and no guide will be perfect.

Bear in mind, though, that the Michelin Red Guides (which is what people mean when talking about Michelin Guides and food) are in the local language. Fortunately, they use a system of symbols that tells you much, but you will need to read Italian to read the larger reviews.

There are many guidebooks and websites for restaurants on the market, but in my experience, the Guide Michelin (online available under www.viamichelin.com) is still one of the most reliable ones.

First, the guide lists only a small fraction of restaurants in a town. If a restaurant is listed, you can assume it is at least o.k.

Second, the number of sets of cutlery (1 to 5) indicates the restaurant's quality - the more the better.

Third, the Bib Gourmand symbol (the head of the Michelin character) indicates that a restaurant serves really good gourmet food at reasonable rates (good value for money).

Fourth, a star indicates that you can expect outstanding food. Two or three stars does not necessarily mean that the food is better, but ambiance and service are more elegant.

The Guide Michelin is a very conservative guide: a restaurant must serve continuously good food for several years until it is awarded a star. And for the second and third star, you need even more time of constant quality (sometimes they make exceptions when a star-decorated chef moves from one restaurant to another).

Why is the Guide Michelin so reliable? Because the Michelin rating is so important for the restaurant's reputation and revenue. Chefs are known who had committed suicide after losing a Michelin star.

I have never been disappointed by a restaurant with a star or with a Bib Gourmand - although I have to admit that a star for a British restaurant is not quite the same as a star for a French restaurant.

Il Passetto is not even listed in the Guide Michelin (and I do not know any other guide which lists this restaurant). Again, be careful with restaurants in famous places. A really good restaurant does not need a good location. Any gourmet will find his/her way (first-league restaurants do not have walk-in customers, anyway).

I have read this news in this moment.
I believe that this typology type of business men should be removed from the market.
Internet can give a great hand with the word of mouth.
I confirm : A really good restaurant does not need a good location.

<i>Two or three stars does not necessarily mean that the food is better, but ambiance and service are more elegant.</i>

This is not what the stars represent. The stars are supposed to be awarded for food quality only. So a 3-star should have better food than a 1-star, and can have lesser service and ambience. From the Michelin guide website:

<i>Michelin stars are awarded to restaurants offering the finest cooking, regardless of cuisine style. Stars represent only what is on the plate. They do not take into consideration interior decoration, service quality or table settings.</i>

Indeed, one of the criticisms of the Michelin Guides is that they don't really follow this and that the ambience does bias the ratings. Heck, if the Michelin Guides actually followed their purported guidelines, then there is no reason why a truly great BBQ place shouldn't garner 3 stars. The curious ommission of the Union Square Cafe, though, suggests that less classic cuisines and more casual settings do get short-changed.

<i>Chefs are known who had committed suicide after losing a Michelin star.</i>

Actually, only one chef has been alleged to have committed suicide over Michelin stars and the chef in question had not been downgraded, and Michelin denies that a downgrade was coming. Bernard Loiseau did, however, lose two Gault Millau points prior to his death.

> If it were as simple as a cultural misunderstanding, then the Italian police wouldn't be investigating this restaurant for fraud! The mayor of Rome has stated that this restaurant should not be allowed to re-open.

Exactly.

BTW, I just read that City of Roma re-offered the free trip to the Japanese couple saying it would be paid by a tourism related sponsor company and not with tax money. The couple turned it down again. They supposedly said the mayor to visit Japan for promotion of Italian/Roman tourism then they could have lunch together.

> that City of Roma re-offered the free trip

Sorry it's the minister of tourisme who's inviting.

Hello Neil, I will send you more details as I don't want to post them here on a public forum. You will be fine in Italy, you two are experienced travelers and knowing pretty much the type of restaurants you like you should not have any problem.

And I am quite happy to read that you and Mrs. Neil are again pursing your desire to visit Italy! That is wonderful news. Cheers.

Fuji's post has to be one of the more ludicrous I've seen in this forum. I've been to Italy, and to many parts of the country, and do not recall anyone ever haggling over the price of a meal like they were purchasing cheap sweaters in Tijuana. The notion that the average Italian restauranteur is going to act in the economically stupid manner that fuji describes is bunk. Italians are generous people, but fuji's statement borders on the asinine.

Similarly, the notion that "food is a particular passion of the Italians" is just bunk. The French love their food, the Italians love their food, the Spanish love their food, the Japanese are passionate about their food (and Italian cuisine too, matter of fact), etc. I've heard soliloquys from Russians about the greatness of their food (seriously!). This pride is not unique to Italians.

Ultimately, you can dine for a very sensible price in Italy and not break the bank or even come close to doing so. As BigRuss's Dad (who has never been confused with a spendthrift) has said: I never had a bad meal in Italy.

LoveItaly, please post on the forum for the edification of those of us planning trips to Italy this year. I will be travelling to Rome and Florence for the first time in late autumn (although not frist trip to Italy) and would love to see the advice. Thank you.

Hello lilcaltraveller, I posted the basic information on 9-03-09 at 9:01p.m. The mistake my dear son-in-law made was that he didn't ask the cost of the meat that the new owner of the long time restaurant kept "pushing".

The same type of thing happened to us one time in Florence. We were at a restaurant and my husband looked at the wine selection and ordered a bottle of wine from the list, a local wine. The "charming" waiter strongly suggested that we have a different bottle of wine as is was an excellent wine. My husband agreed to go along with the waiter's suggestion but he too didn't ask the price of the wine the waiter was pushing. We had a lovely dinner and the wine was truly lovely but I knew when my husband received the check and looked at it that something was wrong. The bottle of wine cost way more then all the various foods we had ordered. Way, way more then the original bottle of wine my husband had selected. My husband said as we later were taking a walk along the River Arno "well that was a lesson learned". In other words lilcaltraveller, if the waiter suggests any food or any wine that is not listed on the menu find out the price. In fact I would strongly suggest that you have them write down the item and the cost so that there will be no arguements afterwards.

I am sure everyone here on Fodor's knows this but just in case..

If you walk into a bar (a place that serves various coffees, pastries, sandwiches etc) there is one price if you stand at the counter and consume what you have ordered. A higher price if you sit at a table inside and generally an even higher price if you consume the items at a table at an outdoor cafe. Most Italians have their expresso or whatever standing at the counter, that keeps the cost down. And..a lot of places will charge their regular customers less then their posted prices. So that upsets some visitors. It doesn't bother me however. Actually I have had the experience of being charges less where I have been a "steady" customer. And there was quite an uproar a couple of years ago about restaurants in Venice charging tourist more then they should have..or was it that they charged the residents less? I don't remember all the details obviously. The Venice government was suppose to crack down on that but I don't know the final outcome.

Just one other comment, I have read and heard more then once that some restaurants in Rome are now owned by the criminals groups in Italy (from Naples, Sicily etc.) and that they were overcharging and not serving what is considered "fresh and good Italian food". The Rome government stated they would be cracking down on them..oh right, sigh.

Going to small family run restaurants away from the main piazza's is usually one's best best money and food wise. No guarantee of course but it usually works out quite well.

Just to complete LoveItaly's posting with advice, in the main tourist cities such as Rome, Florence and Venice there are a few places such as St Mark's Square in Venice where the prices charged when served at the tables set out in the square are astronomically higher than anywhere else in the city. It also applies at a few cafes in Paris too. However, if you look just inside the cafe there will be a board displaying the prices for the different serving areas bar, internal, external, and each city has a fixed price for the basics such as coffee so you can quickly see those that are seriously out of line with the competition. This is explained in most guide books aimed at the English speaking world because it is unusual.

Re criminal activity restaurants as cash businesses are good for money laundering, the principle here is to cleanse the money which often means trading at a loss.

Thank you, LoveItaly and helen. I feel confident that I will have wonderful meals in Italy but appreciate the advice as added insurance. I have been reading old Italy/Food threads as well.

LoveItaly, I think at one point here on Fodors, I posted something along the lines regarding asking for the price of the daily special (granted, the discussion was mainly about US restaurants). Basically, I was "mocked" by some Fodorites as they said, "If you have to ask, you can't afford it."

What you wrote is a good reminder. While it probably happens more often overseas where the waiters/restaurants try to "scam" the unsuspecting tourists, we got burned once at a famous restaurant in Dallas. Our waiter kept pushing and pushing the lobster tail special, which he said was large enough for 4 as an appetizer. Well, we were having dinner with friends whom we weren't too close, so I felt uncomfortable asking for the price. Of course, in my mind, how expensive could a lobster tail appetizer could be?! Well, when the check came, all 4 of us were stunned. I think it was somewhere between $80-100 for that single dish. So yes, I guess that's me: <i>If I have to ask, I probably canNOT afford it!</i>

PS re those special squares in Italy. I am not saying don't go there but just do it as a special treat when you can enjoy a drink or an ice cream or whatever you like and can sit and watch the world go by and get value for money for the experience. If you just need sustenance but don't want to stand at the bar you will find the regular price for table service quite close by in the side streets, just check the list first.

Hi <b>yk</b>:

<i>Well, we were having dinner with friends whom we weren't too close, so I felt uncomfortable asking for the price</i>.

Both Roz and I felt that way for years...but lately I've begun to blurt it right out, just not caring any longer about what "friends", close or not, will think. Try it, you'll begin to feel better and better about it. Guaranteed! (In fact, I'd venture to say that most will be relieved that <u>you</u> asked!)

As to the "if you have to ask you can't afford it" folks...$crew 'em. Enuf said.

stu t.(fellow former Greater Bostonian)

Hi Stu, yes, I learned from that experience and now I won't hesitate to ask for the price, regardless of what others might think of me. Of course, unless a boss is footing the bill (though I would still feel guilty if the dish turned out to be outrageously expensive).

I think that "specials" are the most common source of these surprises and ripe for abuse. I'm not sure that this is entirely on the up-and-up. If your highest priced "regular" appetizer is $10, I don't think it entirely appropriate to have your "specials" cost $20, and not make that clear. Same thing goes for hiding behind "pricing by weight", where a meal of fish/meat/etc will be double the cost of any of your other entrees. It just seems like it borders, sometimes, on a bait-and-switch. At best, it seems like an attempt to be all things to all people, and I'm not sure it works.

FWIW, I find this practice much more prevalent in Europe than in the US. Often, it is under the guise of seasonal specials, like the CHF 25 white asparagus appetizer I saw on a menu at a Swiss pizza place once. The price was clearly displayed, so it was all above-board, but I have to ask why such a place was bothering with the expensive ingredients to begin with? Judging by the ordinary pizza they served, I can't imagine their asparagus with hollandaise was going to be worth the money. I feel the same way about places that, during truffle season, offer truffle shavings willy-nilly.

I like restaurants that know who they are and stick to doing it well.

Living in Rome, I pass Il Passetto often. It's located just north of Piazza Navona and is "well-known" in Rome - although not really considered "fine dining." I've eaten there a couple of times but my bill was never over €125 for two people... but then I did not order food as these guests did. This was not the only complaint lodged against Il Passetto. They've had a few, most notably by visiting Japaneese tourists.

The restaurant is STILL closed, with signs posted that it is under "renovation." They were CLOSED by the city for "poilcy" violations... which could mean almost anything. There is currently ongoing construction work being done and crews are working there daily. Not sure what the "health" violations were that led to the closing, but renovations ARE most certainly happening.... most folks here doubt the health issues were the reason for the closure.

Tourism is off about 20-25% in Rome as the global economy IS impacting the city. It will be interesting to see how Il Passetto recovers from this event, although I think once they reopen many tourists will never know it happened. Italians will still go there, as frankly regular patrons are not paying those prices anyway. For example, when I go to my cafe each morning for a coffee, I pay only 60 cents, although the sign on the wall clearly says 80 cents. I paid 80 cents for about a month of daily trips... then one day, it was 60 cents. No comment from the owner, just this is MY price now. When I take friends there for a morning sit-down, they pay 80 cents... Another example: I eat at a local restaurant 2-3 times a week and they knock 3-4 euros of my bill each day.... So regular customers, just like in the food markets here, do not always pay the posted prices... Not that these prices were negotiated - they just became the standard for the "regular" patron. So prices are fluid, but only at the discretion of the owner/operator.