Technically we've only got 20 nights since we lose a day on the plane. I think I'll have to add one night each to Venice & Rome.

Hi L,

Your revised plan is much better.

Why not fly home from Munich?

Keep in mind that if you buy a railpass you will still have to pay extra for the required seat reservations on the high-speed trains as well as for sleeping accomodations.

I suggest looking up the actual discount fares at
www.voyages-sncf.com fro Paris to Rome

http://www.trenitalia.com/cms/v/inde...0080a3e90aRCRD
for Italy and to Germany. Check the Smart Price international fares.

Enjoy your visit?

((I))

ira, the OP had already said on April 1st:

<i>We got a great deal on the round-trip tickets to Paris and booked them a month ago so unfortunately we can't go open-jaw this time around.</i>

Linds07,

I can only speak about Rome and the Cinque Terre stops on your itinerary. We included both places on our honeymoon three years ago.

Just my opinion, but three nights in Rome was perfect for us. I strongly suggest using Icon Tours while there. We took both the ancient sites tour and the Vatican tour. If you book two or more tours you will get a discount. Plus, the tours get to go to the front of the line, which is ESPECIALLY useful in the Vatican where people can queue up for HOURS just to get in.

We stayed in Vernazza when we were in the Cinque Terre. We loved it. We stayed two nights there. I wish we had stayed three so we could have seen all five of the villages, but we did fine with two. Since your itinerary is much longer than our two will be fine. There is not a lot to do there to warrant much more than two nights.

Enjoy the planning for your trip! And then....ENJOY EUROPE!!!

Best of luck.

Bob

You are going to hate all those night trains. We did one from Amsterdam to Berlin last year, and you don't get much sleep especially if you are together with strangers. It is fun to do once, but unless you are in a private car I would not want to make many journeys this way.

Hi Yk,

Thanks.

Another day in Venice would be sweet - time to go to Merano or one of the islands - seeing Venice by boat from across the water is neat - let's you think what sailors in medieval days must have thought when approaching the wonder of the western world - the anticipating - the mesmerization! Or more time for getting off the beaten path - hard to do in one day when the must sights dominate your precious time.

Thanks again for the advice everyone! Ira I'll check out those links to get a more accurate sense of cost with train reservations & couchette fees. Bob, I know Vernazza is a favourite of Rick Steves but he says there's not a whole lot of a nightlife there. We're not huge party animals but we'd like to meet other young people. What was the mix of people like when you were there?

Linds, Rick is right, of course. Rick's ALWAYS right about such things. LOL.

The tourists in Vernazza were a pretty even mix of people, from families to couples (older, younger and in between) I seem to remember just one or two pubs there. We hung out at the Blue Marlin, where they have two or three PCs hooked up with internet access. It was a pretty lively, yet small, place wher a lot of young people went. Not sure if that is what you are looking for, but everyone seemed to enjoy themselves. A nice place to meet other young people. Still, your choices are limited, so if it's dud, don't say Rick didn't warn you! :-)

Bob

You are going to hate all those night trains.>

And this is based on taking one overnight train?

I've taken hundreds and have always been able to sleep even in couchettes - it depends on the individual and the experience of one person taking one overnight train means nothing.

Rather, if you are not a light sleeper (and some wine can help on this!) then don't throw out the efficacy of covering ground at night and even saving money on the cost of a hotel.

Yeh you can get out the calculator and scurry rail sites in Europe for the often elusive chaper fare - but with the itinerary raised in your OP or anything close a Eurail Select Pass IMO is a no brainer - you may be able to save a few bucks at the cost typically of hours of online frustations as many fodorites report with sites like sncf.com French or trenitalia Italy and be locked into a certain train at a certain time - but for not much more, if any, you also get complete flexibility to take any train with the pass - making your plans as you go along.

I've taken hundreds and have always been able to sleep even in couchettes - it depends on the individual and the experience of one person taking one overnight train means nothing.>

So let's book the whole trip with night trains. So when/if we find out they are miserable, we can dread the rest of the trip. Great advice.

Maybe give it try, if you find it pleasurable you can always use it more next time.

Jeff

You are better off flying Paris/Rome. You don't want to use Paris BVA, but Paris ORLY which is closer to get to than the other Paris airports. Easy Jet flies Paris Orly to Rome Ciampino. They also fly Orly to Pisa.

ttt

We'll take the night train from Paris to Rome and see how that goes. I'm sure with a bottle of wine we'll be fine :) I'm already tired of looking at train costs so I think we'll do the select pass for sheer flexibility. I think flying from Paris to Rome is definitely a less tiring option, but flights are $80-130US and if we took a night train we wouldn't be saving a whole lot of time actually in the city. What would you do if you were us?

I'd fly. That's what I'd do if I were you. Truly.

My daughter (adult) and I also had great r/t tickets to Paris. We stayed just two days Paris because our "real" destination was Italy.

We flew Ryan Air to Venice and EasyJet from Rome back to Paris. Considering the cost of the overnight train (where we would still have to share a sleeping car with two other people) was even more expensive than a plane ticket and a hotel room for one night.

There are a dozen websites, linds, where you can find discount airfare. Lots of carriers in Europe. If you don't belong to any of the carrier email notifications, sign up for those. Discount airlines, discount travel, even Air France and British Airways. You may be able to find cheap airfare to Rome in the next couple weeks.

That's my input. And I will also suggest that because of your short time in Rome, that you use a tour service. We used Context Rome and were so very happy we paid the extra bucks. Our "personal" tour of the Vatican Museums was well worth it. And they have a dozen other tours, too, depending on your interest. You can really maximize your limited time in Rome (and even Florence and Venice) with this group.

http://www.contexttravel.com/rome/

Are you going to try to take the Scavi tour while in Rome? You might still be able to get in on one, even at this late date. It doesn't hurt to ask. I promise you, (especially if you are a Christian, and double-especially if you are Catholic), it will be a moving experience. :) This site gives you information about the tour and the link to the Vatican Excavations office, which is where you will send your email/fax to request a tour. (Also, if you do a search here at Fodors, you will find many trip reports that discuss this tour.)

http://saintpetersbasilica.org/Necropolis/Scavi.htm

(Also, if you've a mind, on May 6, 20 and 27th [Wednesdays], there is a general Papal audience in St. Peter's Square. If you are going to be there on a Wednesday and want to attend the Papal audience, you just need to contact the Santa Susanna church in Rome. Tickets are free, but you must have tickets.) http://www.santasusanna.org/popeVatican/tickets.html

You will have so much fun, but take time to enjoy where you are at and what you are seeing. Be prepared for something to go wrong somewhere- and make up your mind to deal and move on. :) Don't let it ruin the rest of your vacation. :) (Europe is not the U.S. They have their own pace!)

Good luck! I'm so excited for you! :)

Paula

PS I also suggest skipping Vienna and just spending more time in Italy. You are so young- you know you will be back. I'd take the time to get to know Italy and save Germany/Austria for another trip. :) But, that's just me! :)

We'll take the night train from Paris to Rome and see how that goes. I'm sure with a bottle of wine we'll be fine :) I'm already tired of looking at train costs so I think we'll do the select pass for sheer flexibility>

Pass has its value of putting it all to rest - but i suggest when you buy your pass you make the passholder reservation for the Paris to Rome train at the same time as these can be rather hard to get if you will be in Paris only a few days before the train IME.

Thanks for the help Paula! I've sent a request for Papal audience tickets as we will be there on a wednesday! I'm really teetering on finding a flight to Rome from Paris, I'm just a little put off by flying out of Bercy which will add a lot of time to travel. I'll keep looking for tickets that fly out of Orly and hopefully will find something cheap.

I've got a few questions about the eurail pass if someone could help me out. After reading the site it seems like if we wanted to do an overnight train with our first day, it would actually cost us 2 days since the pass hasn't been used yet. Can anyone confirm this? Also, since we're travelling from Venice to Munich, we'll need to pass through Austria to get there. I understand this incurs another fee if we don't specify Austria as a 4th country on the railpass. I'm thinking it'd be cheaper to just buy a 4-country pass, but has anyone had experience with paying an extra fee for a country not on their eurail?

Hope that made sense, thanks in advance for any help!

Yes Austrians do charge the extra fee it seems in many reports if you do not have Austria as one of the Select Pass countries and if they do it on the train i think there could be a surcharge for this - as you are considered perhaps to be riding without a valid ticket.

so if you do not have Austria on your pass i would take the pass up to the ticket window in Munich and buy the supplemental ticket for the Austrian section - but if it's a first class pass IMO you should get the extra country put on as a first class supplemental ticket may cost more than the extra country does - you could buy a cheaper 2nd class ticket but then would not be able to ride in 1st class in Austria - having to relocated - this could be a tad cheaper but IMO not worth the hassle.

but it is my understanding that Austrian conductors will collect the normal ticket price and it seems some penalty fare for doing it on the train.

It is usual for at each border for conductors from that country to re-check all tickets IME

I hope you were able to book a tour of the Vatican. It will truly save you time. As I said before we used Icon Tours and were very satisfied, especially since our guide was alerted that the Sistine Chapel was closing in 30 minutes for a special mass. So, we hurried throught the Vatican museum and made it into the Sistine chapel and had enough time to take it all in. Without a tour guide we still would have been in the queue waiting to get into the museaum and would have missed the chapel, as we were leaving Rome the following day.

Good luck to you!

Bob

Thanks Palenque & Bob! After all that, we've decided to fly into Rome from Paris via Vueling as that was a cheaper option than the train. I don't think we'll go with the eurail pass as it looks like point to point tickets will be cheaper (after reservation and couchette fees). Our only major train trips will be from Venice-Munich and Munich-Paris. Do you think we'll be able to get away with booking tickets when we arrive in a city and book our tickets a few days before we leave?

I haven't booked a tour of the Vatican yet, we're hoping to get there early to beat the crowds. I think the Rome pass is a good option but unfortunately I don't think it can be used for the vatican.