I have lived in Italy for over a year and have never had anyone ask me my feelings of President Bush. Very odd. As far as the staring, when we arrived we were told in our cultural relations class, that Italians are not being rude when they stare, that is just done and not to take it personally, so I don't!

nikki, i think that was just a dig to "remind" us that europeans have real conversations about wonderful, deep and meaningful things whilst "vulgar" americans only talk about superficial things like money. don't worry, it's not true.

tessa is right. those people who claim that they have never been "blankly stared at" in europe obviously don't know it very well. people stare, and yes, don't take it personally.

Perhaps our friend lilminkey expecatations were too high, perhaps he was dreamings of Big Hugs everytime he went around with his t-shirt.
We will never know...
I am sorry that you felt left down, but I am quite surprised about the people reactions toward You..
There is an old proverbe that says:
It takes two to Tango.
Are you sure that your body language was not the culpit?

Ooops typing error: Expectations..

Well, lilminkey, I have to admit I have encountered the cold shoulder and comments that I can surmise were not exactly compliments in Italy. They are not all angels.

Like I wrote before, don't let it get you down and I'm glad you loved the natural beauty of Italy.

Lilminkey,

I have found that you almost always reap what you sow when you visit a foreign country. I would consider wearing a US flag would lead people to believe you have a chip on your shoulder and are being pushy. Since I don't know you, I can say, but is it at all possible that you went there with an attitude of "don't mess with me -- I am from the U-S of A"?

>>>>>
I would consider wearing a US flag would lead people to believe you have a chip on your shoulder and are being pushy
>>>>>

if you walk around europe, you will see a lot of clothing with US flags. polo, tommy and other brands and non-brands often use the flag on clothing worn by americans and europeans alike. likewise, it is not uncommon to see images of the UK flag worn by british and non-british people around europe (brands like FCUK commonly use the jack).

as i stated in a previous post, i personally avoid wearing things that make a statement when i travel. however, to say that wearing a flag (US or otherwise) is seen as pushy or aggressive is foolish and shows a total lack of understanding of what regular people in europe wear today.

I have lived in the US and although American "friendliness" can be charming, it can get a bit overwhelming.
Thank goodness for New Yorkers ;-) a bit of rudeness can be refreshing.

Some Americans can be like big friendly dogs. Some people pat a big friendly dog but others don't want it jumping up at them and treat it coldly.

Personally, I don't want people to be "friendly". I'm happy with pleasant, polite and professional.

"One of the very few things Europeans have in common is we don't make a fetish of flags. People wearing them - whether it's the national flag or a foreign flag - are almost by definition odd."

This is an utter crock. For Canadians wearing a flag is almost the norm and no one pays them the slightest attention.

" When the fireworks started and they were going haywire and landing all around us, the waiter said to me, "oh your President Bush must be here." I just laughed as it was meant in fun."

You should have replied, "No, it means that Mussolini must be here."

Imhornet, Mussolini's dead. I don't see the humor or irony in your statement.

" am puzzled by people's aversion to talking politics when traveling abroad."

I agree. When people criticize Bush, I like to remind them that Saddam already would have an atomic bomb if ther Irsrealis hadn't bombed his weapons development plant. So there was no question that he wanted WMD. I remind them that he ignored numerous UN resolutions. He obstructed the UN inspectors time after time and refused to allow inspectors access to all laboratories again and again. Gee would that make any one suspicious or what? Then he was given ultimatum after ultimatum, which he ignored. Then he was given the option of stepping down and going off to live a peaceful life with the billions that he had looted from Iraq. Only then di Bush order an invasion. Only after all that, did the US invade. I also remind them of the burtality of Saddam, including the poison gas attacks that killed thousands. I remind them of his systemic torture. I ask them, "are you
really upset that he got turfed out of power? Are you really upset with removing a dictator and instituting a democracy? Don't the Iraqi's deserve the same freedom as the Western world?"

When I remind them of all this, they may still be against the invasion, but guess what? They suddenly aren't so outraged anymore.

If course, you can't reason with a lot of them because their anger is not about Bush or the invasion but simply anger at the US. Someone summarized it beatifully: first comes the anger, then comes the taget and only then comes the rationale. There is no point in talking to such people.

imhornet, it's people like you that give political discussion a bad name. You see, the operative word is "discussion." You have that word confused with harrangue.

It's now dawn here on the west coast, and I've gotten my crucifix out and expect you to flitter back to your coffin and pull the lid down behind you.

Imhornet,

I wish you would have been in Europe the few months before Bush declared war. There was a feeling of a global unity...that 95% of the world countries were against terrorism and were going to work TOGETHER to get rid of it. The UN was in full force and kept declaring that they could find no arms. We truly wanted to believe them. We all wanted to get rid of Saddam but not with war.

And then Bush threatened war and demanded the world to be on his side. It was not a democratic decision and most European citizens were very disappointed in US politics. They still are.

And then they never did find those arms that Bush said were hidden in Iraq.

Sorry Imhornet, your story tells only one side of the situation.

Imhornet is wrong. I rarely see a Canadian flag at home except on public buildings or on Canada Day when little flags are given out. I've yet to see someone wearing a Canadian flag while traveling and since I'm Canadian, I'd certainly notice them. I've heard that some Americans wear a Canadian flag but I personally don't know any who do. My American friends and family, while they might disagree with their president at times, are proud to be Americans (though I can't imagine any of them wearing a flag while traveling just because they're just not likely to dress in that way). Most of the flags I see people wearing in Europe are either, as an earlier poster said, part of the clothing's logo or sports-related -- soccer shirts, for example.

I'm not particularly 'political' but my husband certainly is and we've discussed politics (and not just US politics) with many people we've met overseas. It's entirely possible to disagree respectfully. Attitude is everything. That's not to say you don't occasionally meet a jerk and then you just walk away. If you express your opinions as forcefully as Imhornet does (on just about every topic), you're bound to run into trouble.

Imhornet:

I'm sorry but the only things you have "reminded" anyone of are your own perceptions.

If you want to "police up" nations which have "ignored" mandates, etc., I suggest you start right here in the US...that should keep you very busy and in the area you evidently most like to much around for quite some time.

We never discuss politics or religion wheh we travel. Never. No Point. In my experience, President Bush is FAR less popular outside of the US than he is in the US (whatever the current popularity polls show). That is not a reflection of how Europeans feel about Americans. I think what interests them most is how unpopular he is in Europe vs. how he got elected in America. They find this divergence interesting.

This thread is much, much more about politics than travel.

I wonder how quickly it would have been pulled if it had stated that people had not been hostile to President Bush.

Give this stuff a rest.

>"One of the very few things Europeans have in common is we don't make a fetish of flags.

>>This is an utter crock. For Canadians wearing a flag is almost the norm...<<

When did Canada move to Europe?

((I))

lilminkey-
First, I'll admit that I barely skimmed much of the political commentary in the posts here- but did read your OP-
I think your feelings are very likely related to the fact that you understood some of the comments locals were making in their own language. And it sounds like you had a hard time overlooking them because of this. I hope you did have some good times in any case.
I travel in Italy once or twice a year, and some friends are very political (especially at the moment because of elections this year).
Others couldn't care less about politics, but will behave in a charming way to tourists, while between themselves they say truly terrible things about the same tourists they were smiling at 5 minutes before! SInce many of them must deal with a steady, unbroken stream of tourists all thier lives, this is hardly surprising.

Plus, the comment about your Sons of Italy teeshirt does sound like not much more than a bit of common Neapolitan humor, not to be taken to heart so deeply! In fact, I'll bet that if you had come up with a witty comeback along the same lines, you might have shared a laugh together!

(For some great examples of this, try to find the film "Ciao, Professore" which expresses this tradition of trading insults very well)

When I learned the language enough to understand what the locals were saying, it was an eye-opening experience at first, but now it's easier to shrug it off and just enjoy things moment to moment while traveling.
In any case, many Italians are bemused when Italian-Americans come to visit expecting things (and the language) to be similar to the way they were when parents, grandparents, or ancestors lived there.

I'm not good at political debate, but it seems to me that when we are living and traveling for pleasure in a time of war, it's only natural to run into strong sentiments on both sides, in fact it is to be expected.